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[Book Spoilers] Jaime & Brienne- What's going on?

Meera of Tarth

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On 12/6/2016 at 5:55 AM, sweetsunray said:


This is imo a rather obtuse reply, since I said his priority would be on the most impressive blade for House Lannister... that is not the VS sword with the most gold on the hilt, but having the actual most VS forged into it.

That said the 2 fuller longsword is still a full sized adult VS sword worthy of use in battle. It wasn't forged for the temporary physical status of a 14 or 18 year old lanky boy, but for a full sized mature sword that any bulked knight of over 6 ft would be proud to carry and fight with.

 
Your original quote tried to picture Widow's Wail off as a sword as unworthy to a bulked knight of over 6ft. It's not the "MUCH smaller" (twice repeated) but mentioning it in combination with your wording for Oathkeeper as a "full size sword". Basically you implied that Widow's Wail is "MUCH smaller" than a "full sized sword", and thus as a consequence that Widow's Wail is "not a full sized sword". On top of that you continue to argue that Widow's Wail was forged to fit the temporary growth status of a boy-man who is not yet fully grow, nor fully bulked up yet, and thus portray a belief that Widow's Wail was forged for a teen/child, and thus take it as an insult that Jaime is wiedling such a sword.
 
It's actually very human and understandable that you made that mental mistake. For a long while even I myself thought Widow's Wail was "MUCH smaller". I thought initially that Widow's Wail wasn't even a longsword, but only 1/3 of Ice, until I did a reread. Widow's Wail is a "full sized sword". 
 
1/5 of difference is still less than 1/3 of difference. But you've got the difference in measurements now. I gave you the minimum length for a longsword (33inch), I quoted the book to make clear that Widow's Wail is called a longsword, and I gave you the quote that says Oathkeeper is 1/2 inch wider and 3 inches longer. The true difference in VS material is probably more like 1/9 of the VS material.
 
And no we know we're not talking about 250 pounds versus 150 pounds here (that proportional analogy of yours is mathematically correct, but imo just used to bamboozle).
 
Conclusion:
  • The situation isn't Oathkeeper = "full size sword" and Widow's Wail = "non full sized sword" (for a kid/teen/lanky person)...
  • The situation is Widow's Wail ="full sized sword" and Oathkeeper = "exceptional".

So, don't worry...Jaime isn't going to look ridiculous when he wields Widow's Wail, which I take was what you worried about the most.

We do know. Aerys' case in literature regarding Jaime is a closed deal.

He appointed Jaime publically at the start of a tourney, and sent him off to KL with the expressed purpose to deny him any chance of fighting at a tourney, "He will have no Glory here." And he gloats over having Tywin's son to command. If having Tywin's son was only a secondary bonus, an afterthought, he would have allowed Jaime to perform at HH and so on. He didn't. He explicitly stated he wanted Jaime to not participate in tourneys and gain no glory. We don't need Aerys' thoughts. We have his explicit words on that. That a 15 year old boy who wants to be like Arthur Dayne admits to himself that he was used as a pawn and not chosen for his skill on the day of being made KG, like Arthur Dayne, speaks volumes about the POV conclusion. 15 year old proud boys don't like to admit to naivity, not even themselves. 

We also have the White Book and the entries written in it by Sir Gerold Hightower and later Selmy. When Jaime reads it he's extremely disappointed with what it contains. Now, that Selmy left out and neglected some of Jaime's wins at tourneys and whatever he may have done during Balon's Rebellion (we don't know), is understandably biased censuring. Selmy became LC after Robert won his rebellion against Aerys, and thus after Jaime slew Aerys. But even Gerold's write up is scant. It only reads that he squired for Crakehall against the Kingswood Brotherhood, that he was knighted by Dayne at 15, and then chosen by Aerys to be KG. His melee win at a tourney at 13 is not in the White Book, nor that he saved Sumner Crakehall's life against one of the outlaws. The supposed great feats that allowed for Jaime to be theoretically named KG by Aerys at the age of 15 are NOT written in the White Book, not even by Gerold Hightower, the LC at that time. The melee win as a squire is one of the reasons that Jaime cites to Brienne why he himself feels he "deserved" it. Saving Sumner Crakehall's life and that he even crossed swords with the Smiling Knight are facts that Jaime "thinks" Gerold Hightower could have included in his write up in the White Book. But Gerold explicitly fails to mention any of this.

Then we have Selmy's account in the White Book: his first feat as a mystery knight at the age of 10 that earned him the name "the Bold" is recorded in it, even though he was defeated and unmasked by Duncan Targaryen. It states why he was knighted at 16 - for feats of prowess, again as a mystery knight, at a tourney where he defeated Duncan the Small and Dunk (the LC of the KG at the time). It reports who he fought at the war of the Ninepenny Kings and who he killed then, which earned him the position at KG at the age of 23 with Gerold as LC of the KG at the time. All typos of victories and who he fought and slew against the Kingswood Brotherhood - he killed Symon Toyne, fought Smiling Knight (who was slain by Arthur) - and who he rescued from the KB. And more wins and feats at tourneys follow.

You might wonder whether Selmy wrote that all up about himself? No, he didn't. It was all written by Gerold Hightower. Selmy only wrote the entry of his wounding at the Trident and what he did afterwards, including being dismissed from service by Joffrey at the age of 61.

So, Gerold wrote an extensive summation for Selmy from age 10, who he fought or jousted against, even if he didn't kill or defeated anyone, nor was a knight even. But Jaime's feats are nothing more than "was this guy's squire at the Kingswood", got knighted at age 15 by this knight (no reason given), and was made KG by this king (no reason given).

There's no denying that Jaime is a good fighter (when he had his sword hand), but based on the discrepance of Gerold's accounts for Selmy and Jaime, it's clear that Gerold (the LC of the KG) didn't really think Jaime had done anything extraordinary to actually deserve his knighthood at 15, let alone to become a KG.

So, how about Jaime's win of the melee at the tourney at the age 13? In the books we have Harry the Heir, in the Vale. Royce organized a squire tourney where he made sure that Harry would win so he could be knighted. It's why Myranda refers to Harry as an upjumped knight (though he's actually an adult in Westerosi culture). Is that what happened? Jaime never cites who organized the tourney where he won his melee. That Gerold Hightower doesn't even consider to mention it in the White Book and that Jaime doesn't even think "Hey Gerold, you could have written about my melee win at age 13" hints that whomever organized the tourney and the melee did set it up to be on Tywin's good side by arranging for Jaime to win it, and that Jaime knows this.

His actions as a squire at the Kingswood earned him his knighthood by Dayne. He served Sumner Crakehall as squire well, since he saved him from being killed by an outlaw (though he did not kill the outlaw). Yet, somehow Gerold does not think it was something extraordinary feat that was to be recorded in the White Book. Crakehall is a bannerman of Tywin. It's likely that Sumner Crakehall asked or suggested Jaime to be knighted to Dayne. Crakehall could have done it himself, but that would have looked way too suspicious. Having a KG knight Jaime comes across as a far more politically independent judgment. At least Arthur thought it was good enough to be knighted. Gerold Hightower was not actually present at that particular incident with the Kingswood Brotherhood (Ulmer, now at CB, shot him through the hand in a previous incident). Hence, it's safe to conclude that Gerold himself did not think Jaime's feats were special enough to be knighted for. Meanwhile Gerold is actually the KG who offered to go back to KL after Jaime was made KG so that Jaime could participate at the Tourney of HH. In other words, the picture we get is that Gerold did not think Jaime had proven himself yet to earn his knighthood at 15 (let alone to be KG), but that he did want to give Jaime a chance to prove it ASAP at Harrenhal, earn his spurrs and glory after he was up-jumped already. This would explain very well why Gerold, who tries to be generous to Jaime at HH by offering to take his place to guard the queen in KL, wrote so little about Jaime's feats. Jaime's feats - both the melee win at 13 and the saving of Crakehall from an outlaw attack - were left unmentioned, because putting them in there would have made Jaime's knighthood as an up-jumped knight, than one who earned it. Gerold censored the details to save Jaime's face.

Great food for thought, I read it all with interest.

I think you're making a lot of assumptions and inferences that may or may not be true, especially about why certain things were or were not written in the White Book, and why or why not Aerys did or said what he did or said, but to respond to it all in detail could take me hours I simply don't conveniently have right now.

Also worth noting, I think:  My understanding of most of the reason so much of Jaime's pages in theWhite Book are empty is NOT because he is not a very good figher, t's just b/c he didn't DO much over the years, he just hung around King's Landing in times of peach.

Bottom line to me is that my STRONG understanding is that Jaime, before he lost his hand, and at the start of AGOT, would have been almost universally hailed as the the best warrior in all of Westeros, given his combination of size, strength, speed and skill.  That is my understanding, but I am not going to re-read all the books just for the express purpose of pulling out all the information that supports this. I am, however, just about due for a a full re-read (it's been over 5 years since I last read all the books), so who knows, maybe soon I'll undertake it and keep notes of all the information supporting Jaime as a profoundly lethal and powerful warrior.

Let me ask you this, though:  At the start of AGOT, how would you rate Jaime's overall value as a warrior in battle, on a scale of 1 to 10, with "1" being terrible, and "10" being absolutely excellent?  Cuz my understanding is that Jaime is a "10."  Jaime himself tells Brienne (books and show, I believe) that only 4 warriors even Westeros even MIGHT have a chance against him, and it's not just idle bragging, my general recollection is that we are told similar things by other people at other times.  My understandin is that Jaime was an absolute beast at Whispering Woods, BY FAR the most lethal fighter on either side.  Robb won't fight him, no way, he knows perfectly well Jaime would defeat him, no problem, and openly admits it.

So, what's your rating of Jaime on a scale from 1 to 10 at the statt of AGOT? I'm quite curious. And if Jaime was anything but a 10, who would you put ahead of him at that time?

In any event, though, as far as I'm concerned this has been fun conversation, and I thank you for it.

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Meera of Tarth Council Member

Meera of Tarth

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5 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Yes, it would be nice. It's too bad Jaime and Cersei dragged their three now dead kids into their decision to indulge in a cultural taboo.

Oh, and a very big knight, too! :lol:

Yes, it's sad for their children, because it's not their fault but they played with fire with the taboo and Joffrey was certainly a bad consequence of it. 

Oh yes, big, tall, handsome or pretty, and with natural talents for fighting, and a good person,too. Oh, JB are meant for each other.

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sweetsunray Council Member

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15 minutes ago, Cron said:

Also worth noting, I think:  My understanding of most of the reason so much of Jaime's pages in theWhite Book are empty is NOT because he is not a very good figher, t's just b/c he didn't DO much over the years, he just hung around King's Landing in times of peach.

I disagree, because there were tourneys and Balon's rebellion as well since Robert's Rebellion. 2 people wrote in the White Book during Jaime's time as KG, the two Lord Commanders: Gerold Hightower and Barristan Selmy, the same two LCs who wrote in Selmy's backstory in the White Book. What's written in the White Book for both men was written by both the same LCs.

Gerold Hightower wrote up everything for Selmy and Jaime up until Robert's Rebellion. Selmy wrote everything for himself and Jaime after Robert's Rebellion.

Here's what was written in the White Book for Selmy. I colored everything written by Gerold in green, what Selmy wrote in blue.

Quote

Ser Barristan of House Selmy. Firstborn son of Ser Lyonel Selmy of Harvest Hall. Served as squire to Ser Manfred Swann. Named "the Bold" in his 10th year, when he donned borrowed armor to appear as a mystery knight in the tourney at Blackhaven, where he was defeated and unmasked by Duncan, Prince of Dragonflies. Knighted in his 16th year by King Aegon V Targaryen, after performing great feats of prowess as a mystery knight in the winter tourney at King's Landing, defeating Prince Duncan the Small and Ser Duncan the Tall, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. Slew Maelys the Monstrous, last of the Blackfyre Pretenders, in single combat during the War of the Ninepenny Kings. Defeated Lormelle Long Lance and Cedrik Storm, the Bastard of Bronzegate. Named to the Kingsguard in his 23rd year, by Lord Commander Ser Gerold Hightower. Defended the passage against all challengers in the tourney of the Silver Bridge. Victor in the mêlée at Maidenpool. Brought King Aerys II to safety during the Defiance of Duskendale, despite an arrow wound in the chest. Avenged the murder of his Sworn Brother, Ser Gwayne Gaunt. Rescued Lady Jeyne Swann and her septa from the Kingswood Brotherhood, defeating Simon Toyne and the Smiling Knight, and slaying the former. In the Oldtown tourney, defeated and unmasked the mystery knight Blackshield, revealing him as the Bastard of Uplands. Sole champion of Lord Steffon's tourney at Storm's End, whereat he unhorsed Lord Robert Baratheon, Prince Oberyn Martell, Lord Leyton Hightower, Lord Jon Connington, Lord Jason Mallister, and Prince Rhaegar Targaryen. Wounded by arrow, spear, and sword at the Battle of the Trident whilst fighting beside his Sworn Brothers and Rhaegar Prince of Dragonstone. Pardoned, and named Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, by King Robert I Baratheon. Served in the honor guard that brought Lady Cersei of House Lannister to King's Landing to wed King Robert. Led the attack on Old Wyk during Balon Greyjoy's Rebellion. Champion of the tourney at King's Landing, in his 57th year. Dismissed from service by King Joffrey I baratheon in his 61st year, for reasons of advanced age.

The earlier part of Ser Barristan's storied career had been entered by Ser Gerold Hightower in a big forceful hand. Selmy's own smaller and more elegant writing took over with the account of his wounding on the Trident. (aSoS, Jaime VIII)

This is the entry for Jaime, again written by the same two LC's, Gerold and Selmy.

 
Quote

 

Jaime's own page was scant by comparison.
Ser Jaime of House Lannister. Firstborn son of Lord Tywin and Lady Joanna of Casterly Rock. Served against the Kingswood Brotherhood as squire to Lord Summer Crakehall. Knighted in his 15th year by Ser Arthur Dayne of the Kingsguard, for valor in the field. Chosen for the Kingsguard in his 15th year by King Aerys II Targaryen. During the Sack of King's Landing, slew King Aerys II at the foot of the Iron Throne. Thereafter known as the "Kingslayer." Pardoned for his crime by King Robert I Baratheon. Served in the honor guard that brought his sister the Lady Cersei Lannister to King's Landing to wed King Robert. Champion in the tourney held at King's Landing on the occasion of their wedding. (aSoS, Jaime VIII)

 

 
Now let's compare Selmy's account for himself with what he wrote for Jaime:
  • Both for Selmy and Jaime we get a short description regarding their specific signifcant role during RR: Selmy fought at the Trident, Jaime slew Aerys II and earned his nickname Kinglslayer.
  • Both Selmy and Jaime are pardoned by the same king, with the sole difference being that Selmy became LC
  • Both Selmy and Jaime served in the honor guard of Cersei when she was to wed Robert
  • Selmy fought on Old Wyk during Balon's rebellion. There's no entry of Jaime having fought during Balon's rebellion (nor do we have Jaime thinking of a memory. It seems he was not there. Possibly he was with Cersei in KL, for she would have been pregnant or perhaps near delivery of Myrcella).
  • Both Selmy and Jaime are champion of a tourney: Jaime at his sister's wedding, Selmy at some KL tourney four years before aGoT.
  • Selmy's dismissal of the KG. Jaime hasn't been dismissed so that could not be written into his account.

All in all, Selmy's account for both himself as well as Jaime is not that different, except for the dismissal and Selmy's fighting participation during Balon's Rebellion. But other than that, both get a champion mention for a tourney, their role in RR, and the honor guard. If Selmy left out one more champion win out of Jaime's account, then he also left out lots of details out of his own account. I think it's safe to conclude that Selmy wrote at least "fairly" - as little about himself than he did for Jaime, nothing more than the highlights.

The huge difference between the account for Selmy and Jaime is what Gerold Hightower wrote. Of course, Gerold could never have written much for Jaime, since Jaime was only 15-17 and served th KG for just only over a year, during a period of rebellion and was expressly forbidden to participate by Aerys at the Tourney of HH. Selmy had served the KG for much longer and already had earned himself a reputation before he was named Kinsguard. So, let's zoom in into what Gerold wrote for Selmy up until named Kingsguard and then Jaime. Now, I'll bolden what is the same write up in nature.

Quote

Ser Barristan of House Selmy. Firstborn son of Ser Lyonel Selmy of Harvest Hall. Served as squire to Ser Manfred Swann. Named "the Bold" in his 10th year, when he donned borrowed armor to appear as a mystery knight in the tourney at Blackhaven, where he was defeated and unmasked by Duncan, Prince of Dragonflies. Knighted in his 16th year by King Aegon V Targaryen, after performing great feats of prowess as a mystery knight in the winter tourney at King's Landing, defeating Prince Duncan the Small and Ser Duncan the Tall, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. Slew Maelys the Monstrous, last of the Blackfyre Pretenders, in single combat during the War of the Ninepenny Kings. Defeated Lormelle Long Lance and Cedrik Storm, the Bastard of Bronzegate. Named to the Kingsguard in his 23rd year, by Lord Commander Ser Gerold Hightower.

[snip]

Ser Jaime of House Lannister. Firstborn son of Lord Tywin and Lady Joanna of Casterly Rock. Served against the Kingswood Brotherhood as squire to Lord Summer Crakehall. Knighted in his 15th year by Ser Arthur Dayne of the Kingsguard, for valor in the field. Chosen for the Kingsguard in his 15th year by King Aerys II Targaryen.

For both Gerold wrote which house they were from, how they were both firstborn sons, whom they served as squires, how old they were when knighted (and by whom) and how old they were when made kingsguard (and by whom)

The huge difference is between everything else:

  • Selmy's participation as mystery knight at the age of 10, though he was defeated. No such thing even remotely similar appears in Jaime's account, though we know from Jaime himself that he actually won a melee of a tourney at 13.
  • A long explanation why Selmy got knighted - defeating the LC Dunk and a Targ prince at a TOURNEY -  while Gerold only writes a non-descript "for valor in the field" for Jaime. We know it's for saving the knight's life he squired for and crossing swords with the Smiling Knight. Jaime earned it in chaotic battle where live steel was used. Selmy earned it at the lists.
  • A long explanation why Selmy was named for the KG - his feats during the War of the Ninenpenny Kings that precede the naming, with names of the men he slew, and whom he defeated in a tourney. No explanation is mentioned whatsoever for Jaime becoming Kingsguard.

The reasons are explicitly given for Selmy, but not for Jaime, despite the fact that Jaime had actually participated in a battle and won a melee. It becomes understandable why Gerold left it out, when we do make the comparison with Selmy's account. For example we notice how Gerold twice emphasizes Selmy participating in a tourney as a mystery knight, once while he was still a squire, aged 10 and defeated, and the second time again while he was still a squire but managed to defeat knights with quite a record (such as Dunk) and earned his knighthood for it (though he doesn't appear to have been the champion of the tourney). The clue is in the mystery knight. The historical Black Prince often entered the lists as a mystery knight, for he knew that if people openly knew he was the prince, his opponents would withdraw from the challenge and give him the win, or would only pretend to ride against him, but basically lose on purpose so the prince would win. The Black Prince wanted to truly measure his jousting abilities against other knights, and the sole way he could be sure of that was to hide his true identity. A mystery knight is bound to be challenged by some of the best knights at the tourney, because they want to unmask him (remember Aerys rewarded a price for anyone who could unmask the Knight of the Laughing Tree, whom he himself believed to be Jaime and truly incensed at the idea of Jaime not going to KL, as well as Robert boasting how he'd unmask him, aka "challenge" him). This comes into play when Gerold stresses Selmy as having entered the lists as a mystery knight twice (at least).

Selmy fully earned his knighthood at a tourney, exactly because nobody knew who he was when they challenged him and wouldn't have jousted against him with kid gloves, and in fact he defeated well known knights. Jaime never won anything at a tourney as an unknown. His opponents always knew he was the firstborn and favored son of Tywin whom most knights would fear to harm or oppose or anger, lest their House isn't Rained in blood.

Now while Jaime managed to cross his swords with the Smiling Knight, the outlaw he saved his master from was just an outlaw, who wasn't a knight at all, and Jaime didn't actually capture or slay them. Some of those outlaws were good fighters, like Symon Toyne, but the others would probably be nothing more than peasant sons who learned to hack with a sword in the forest or had a talent for the bow like Ulmer. It's hardly even a melee against knights or sellswords in a tourney. Jaime showed valor, but did not prove his skill against such opponents (at that time). For a man like Gerold it's almost the same as knighting Joffrey for making Mycah run. 

In fact, if Jaime could confront Gerold over this, he would ultimately have to agree with Gerold, for Jaime uses similar reasoning when he confronts the Kettleback KG in the same chapter, shortly after reading the White Book.

 
Quote

 

Jaime seated himself again and turned to Kettleblack. "Ser Osmund. I do not know you. I find that curious. I've fought in tourneys, mêlées, and battles throughout the Seven Kingdoms. I know of every hedge knight, freerider, and upjumped squire of any skill who has ever presumed to break a lance in the lists. So how is it that I have never heard of you, Ser Osmund?"
"That I couldn't say, my lord." He had a great wide smile on his face, did Ser Osmund, as if he and Jaime were old comrades in arms playing some jolly little game. "I'm a soldier, though, not no tourney knight."
"Where had you served, before my sister found you?"
"Ser Robert . . . Stone. He's dead now, my lord."
"To be sure." Ser Robert Stone might have been some bastard from the Vale, he supposed, selling his sword in the Disputed Lands. On the other hand, he might be no more than a name Ser Osmund cobbled together from a dead king and a castle wall. What was Cersei thinking when she gave this one a white cloak?
At least Kettleblack would likely know how to use a sword and shield. Sellswords were seldom the most honorable of men, but they had to have a certain skill at arms to stay alive. (aSoS, Jaime VIII)

 

 

Jaime himself finds tourney experience important, more than whichever lord or master he served as a sellsword. We know from the entry for Selmy that Gerold finds that very important, corroborated with his volunteering to guard the queen in KL instead of Jaime so that Jaime could prove some of his true worth and skill at the tourney of Harrenhal, which Aerys explicitly does not want Jaime to earn at all (per Aerys' own words in Jaime's flashback)

Your claim that Jaime earned his kingsguardship on reputation as a fighter alone is simply not backed up. More, when we look closer at the differences between Selmy and Jaime regarding what the same LC wrote for them as reasons why they were knighted and made kingsguard reveals that Jaime had no real reputation to speak of yet, and had in Gerold's eyes not yet proven he was worthy of the white cloak, neither in battle nor at tourneys.

Finally, let's look at who made them knights and who made them kingsguard. Notice how it's a king who knights Selmy, but the LC of the kingsguard who chose Selmy to become one of them, whereas a knight (Arthur) knighted Jaime, but a king (a king who was no fighter whatsoever) chose him to be kingsguard. In other words, Jaime was not Gerold's choice and in all likelihood Gerold would not have chosen Jaime at the time.

That said, I do not think Jaime is unskilled. Before he lost his swordhand, Jaime is imo one of the top five knights in Westeros and imo in the top 10 swordfighter category of some mentioned in the books, where we can also add Loras, Brienne, Hound and possibly Bronn (3 of those aren't knights), together with Arthur, Selmy, Gerold and Dunk. That doesn't mean however that Jaime had already proven himself to be that skilled at the age of 15 when he was chosen to become kingsguard by the king (and not the LC Gerold).

 

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Meera of Tarth

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9 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Seven seasons later, same old Jaime.

Posting in another thread, I've noticed something. The armours of her QG are wearing black-NW colours. Jaime isn't....maybe there is still hope, and it's their way to say the twins are coming apart, ,finally.

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10 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Posting in another thread, I've noticed something. The armours of her QG are wearing black-NW colours. Jaime isn't....maybe there is still hope, and it's their way to say the twins are coming apart, ,finally.

Yeah, that is a good sign, in the midst of bad. He should have been long gone.

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1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Apparently Show's Jaime is a slower learner than book's Jaime. But after S6 finale, I believe he is mostly done with Cersei. Will he go to Brienne and the Starks' side, because saving the realm from the Others is now the only thing that matters? I hope so.

Yes, this is a one-way journey. The ending of Cersei+Jaime started in 6.10.

57 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Could it be said that Jaime is being "cock distracted" by Cersei in regards to his feelings for Brienne while at the same time, she is seemingly "cock blocking" The Hound from Sansa? Show Universe that is.

If he loves her in a romantic way, that wil stop due to the Sept incident. However, I don't think he will be attracted physically for her after that either, and I agree there can't be love anymore, the feelings for Brienne will become more clear. Just compare both of them and what he seeks, he has changed. He is not like Cersei. 

Only the ashes of it, thinking of her as someone who he loved and is still his sister,....so he might want her to go to the "good path" again, but it will be futile. As Brienne told him, there's honour in him, he will have to make a decision. It will be hard, but he will do the best for humanity. He has to leave her. He is not like Walder Frey, either, that was remarked in 6.10. So, no, he can't pardon Cersei's actions.

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14 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Yes, this is a one-way journey. The ending of Cersei+Jaime started in 6.10.

If he loves her in a romantic way, that wil stop due to the Sept incident. However, I don't think he will be attracted physically for her after that either, and I agree there can't be love anymore, the feelings for Brienne will become more clear. Just compare both of them and what he seeks, he has changed. He is not like Cersei. 

Only the ashes of it, thinking of her as someone who he loved and is still his sister,....so he might want her to go to the "good path" again, but it will be futile. As Brienne told him, there's honour in him, he will have to make a decision. It will be hard, but he will do the best for humanity. He has to leave her. He is not like Walder Frey, either, that was remarked in 6.10. So, no, he can't pardon Cersei's actions.

It will be interesting if she either has Jaime marry her now that she has brazenly declared herself ruler of Westeros or will she marry someone else, say, Euron or even propose another Reach alliance with say Dickon Tarly?

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5 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

It will be interesting if she either has Jaime marry her now that she has brazenly declared herself ruler of Westeros or will she marry someone else, say, Euron or even propose another Reach alliance with say Dickon Tarly?

Yes, I don 't think she is interested in Jaime anymore. I bet she doesn't even love him. While, at the same time, is she crazy enough to marry him despite knowing nobody would accept it? But she is the new ruler, her rules.

IMO she won't try to marry him, but maybe we'll get an scene when she tells him to marry and he declines, that wuld be very interestin, and would show how he is growing apart from her.

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