[Book Spoilers] Jaime & Brienne- What's going on?

[jcmontea]

5 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

well, the books are more romantic. That's true. But that applies to all the romances: J/B is alsomore romantic in the books, and Gendry/Arya as well.

As for the age gap, yes, there is, but he is playing a younger character.  And let's not forget Sansa was married to Tyrion played by Dinklage who is the same age as Rory McCann, and at that time Sophie was a teenager, (actually playing a 14 year-old girl) so I don't think there is any problem for season 8, especially now that both she and her character are adults and Sansa is portrayed as being very mature (season 7 ruling).

i don't know how comparable the Tyrion Sansa wedding is. They never had sex. It was even acknowledged in universe that it was weird which is one reason Tyrion didn't try and consummate it. But maybe who knows. 

 

[Newstar]

39 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Creeping people? How? Creepy is to see people killing others, torture, awful rape scenes, mass murder and too many people, also incest. Love can't be creepy if they love each other.

Age ain't nothing but a number, I guess, LOL. Littlefinger would agree, no doubt.

 

23 minutes ago, Faera said:

I hadn't thought about it until you said it but you are right, The show really doesn't have much in the way of romance at all... which might go a long way to explain by Jon/Dany was so terribly stilted. They were so out of practice because they wanted to focus on how awesome Dany's dragons are and how good Cersei is at pulling that resting b-face and how awesome Kit Harrington is at sword fighting.

LOL, can you blame them? I'd rather watch Kit Harington swing a sword real good than act; at least he can do the former well.

 

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Given the show definitely intended Tommund's infatuation with Brienne as a joke, the fact that so many fans have taken such a liking to the "ship" where people are debating whether she should "end up" with him or Jaime shows how starved the audience is for some emotions.

While I roll my eyes at D&D with their fratboy humour and distaste for icky "girly" shit, entitled fans wearing shipper goggles who expect, nay, DEMAND multiple canon romances and get mad that D&D don't care about shipping the way they do--because D&D have, you know, the actual plot and endgame to worry about--are equally annoying.

 

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In the books, I would say the tragedy is how clearly doomed Jaime is and the hope is that he will manage to find some moment of clarity, peace or closure through his relationship with Brienne.

Fair enough, but my problem with that is that it focuses on what's good for Jaime's development. What about poor Brienne, who will have to struggle on after losing another man she loves in what we can safely predict will be horrifyingly traumatizing fashion? What about her peace and closure?

[Faera]

1 hour ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I strongly disagree with this. First of all, Bran is the first POV character in the books. Secondly, the show is gonna end like the books. Their decision to not showing him in the cave was because they had no material to work with from the books, and in fact, they decided to do it this way also because they wanted to show his powers having been grown a lot. Not a wise decision. But their decisions are not wise, normally, in terms of storytelling.

I agree Bran is an important main character in the books. In the show, you really do get the sense that the DDs didn't have a clue what to do with him. They didn't really know what to do with any of the surviving Stark children and still seem to be struggling to find them a real purpose. I complain endlessly at how they have destroyed Bran's character in the show and turned him into, basically, a medieval version of the AI assistant on our smartphones... but they've mucked up Sansa and Arya just as much. S7 is proof that as far as the Stark children are, there is no real direction.

The thing about Bran's plot especially in the book is that you have to be into the heavy imagery, gothic creepiness and trippiness of his chapters. It's all visual and you spend most of it inside Bran's head: he sneakies by skinchanging Hodor, creeps on Meera, wargs Summer, watches Jojen being depressed, skinchanges Hodor some more, finds some CotF and goes cave exploring before eating weirwood paste, going to sleep and having vivid dreams about the history of the heart tree at Winterfell. All in all, very interesting for us book lore nerds but doesn't make great TV. He's perhaps a little too isolated from everything else. So, he is pushed aside to make room for less passive characters like the overplayed and overrated secondary characters like Bronn.

Back on topic now, let's talk about Jaime and Brienne.

In many ways, Jaime (and Brienne's) plot ballooned from book and splintered off drastically. While he and Brienne are POV characters, their plotline is so heavily tied into the LSH plot line that it is difficult to really foresee either of them playing a major role in the end game if either of them are even still alive book-wise. They have essentially been making up plotlines to keep Jaime relevant since S5, plots that there is no way he will be a part of in the books. Even when his plot seemed to get back on track by him going to the Riverlands, they promptly sent him back to King's Landing rather than have him break away from Cersei there and then. Brienne has suffered from the same thing. Looking back over the last three years, while Jaime has been a major presence, he really hasn't achieved all that much in terms of progression.

[Meera of Tarth]

3 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

i don't know how comparable the Tyrion Sansa wedding is. They never had sex. It was even acknowledged in universe that it was weird which is one reason Tyrion didn't try and consummate it. But maybe who knows. 

You mentioned  the age gaps and I showed you how in Westeros age gaps are not really as important (look at Lysa and Jon). The important thing is: is there love or not. Is it better to marry a man of your own age who you don't like or who is a monster (Joffrey) or marry someone you love. 

Tyrion and Sansa having sex would have actually been rape bc she clearly didn't want him. Having sex while you are an adult Lady with the man you finally choose is a completely different. Sansa will decide.

[Meera of Tarth]

5 minutes ago, Faera said:

Back on topic now, let's talk about Jaime and Brienne.

In many ways, Jaime (and Brienne's) plot ballooned from book and splintered off drastically. While he and Brienne are POV characters, their plotline is so heavily tied into the LSH plot line that it is difficult to really foresee either of them playing a major role in the end game if either of them are even still alive book-wise. They have essentially been making up plotlines to keep Jaime relevant since S5, plots that there is no way he will be a part of in the books. Even when his plot seemed to get back on track by him going to the Riverlands, they promptly sent him back to King's Landing rather than have him break away from Cersei there and then. Brienne has suffered from the same thing. Looking back over the last three years, while Jaime has been a major presence, he really hasn't achieved all that much in terms of progression.

That's because they had no book material. I am sure that WInds will feature more than just a resolution of the LSH plot. It's just that we can't imagine what could happen. There will probably be one or two arcs more than that. The show did that because for some odd reason, they liked the character of Cersei and wanted to make her the main villain of the show (and probably main character as well). That destroyed Jaime's character. I'm glad he is back on track, going to the North, finally.

[jcmontea]

22 minutes ago, Faera said:

D Again, I think the problem is that GRRM probably told them Jon and Daenerys might well develop a romantic relationship in the books but he has well over 1000+ pages to set it all up and have it make sense. D&D, the "total boys" who aren't known for the "girlie romantic stuff", decided to just tell us they liked each other rather than show it. Half the reason people have jumped onto things like the Arya/Gendry ship, or the Bran/Meera ship, or any of the more subtle pairings you might like to choose is because their respective actors were able to convince us in much shorter scenes that there might be a spark.

 

I actually don’t think there is a problem at all. I am going to go out on a pretty strong limb and say most people either where pro-jonerys or indifferent. They did a survey on reddit and ~67 percent of people gave the season an 8 or above and 62% said the Jon/ Dany storyline was their favorite of the season. Annecdotally I don’t know anyone other than people on chat rooms who disliked the relationship. Now obviously anyone can dislike anything and if you disliked it than that is totally valid. 

But to say its a problem is a bit much. Out in the real world it seems to have worked to such an extent that Dolce and Gabanna have an ad campaign with Kit and Emilia. 

[Le Cygne]

47 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

You mentioned  the age gaps and I showed you how in Westeros age gaps are not really as important (look at Lysa and Jon). The important thing is: is there love or not. Is it better to marry a man of your own age who you don't like or who is a monster (Joffrey) or marry someone you love. 

Tyrion and Sansa having sex would have actually been rape bc she clearly didn't want him. Having sex while you are an adult Lady with the man you finally choose is a completely different. Sansa will decide.

I'm just reading your comments but thought I'd add this...

SANDOR CLEGANE (35), “The Hound,” Joffrey’s bodyguard.

https://scriptpipeline.com/game-of-thrones-pilot

So if 5 years have passed, Sansa's 18, he's 40. That's really not a big deal in a period romance.

Jane Eyre, 20 years. Little Women, 20+ years. Emma, 16 years. And so on... Books, Sandor is 15 years older. (Jaime is 15 years older than Brienne, too.)

Also... Separation periods are classic in romances. Jane Eyre is a good example of one. Beauty and the Beast is another.

[jcmontea]

6 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

You mentioned  the age gaps and I showed you how in Westeros age gaps are not really as important (look at Lysa and Jon). The important thing is: is there love or not. Is it better to marry a man of your own age who you don't like or who is a monster (Joffrey) or marry someone you love. 

Tyrion and Sansa having sex would have actually been rape bc she clearly didn't want him. Having sex while you are an adult Lady with the man you finally choose is a completely different. Sansa will decide.

We will see in 2019. 

[Meera of Tarth]

3 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

I'm just reading your comments but thought I'd add this...

SANDOR CLEGANE (35), “The Hound,” Joffrey’s bodyguard.

https://scriptpipeline.com/game-of-thrones-pilot

So if 5 years have passed, she's 18, he's 40. That's really not a big deal in a period romance.

Jane Eyre, 20 years. Little Women, 20+ years. Emma, 16 years. And so on... Books, Sandor is 15 years older.

That's true. He'd be 40 now. Beautiful romances, the ones you mention. Just reminded me of  an "Emma" adaptation, I watched not so long ago.

[Newstar]

43 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

As for the age gap, yes, there is, but he is playing a younger character. 

If we're using the books as a measure of the characters' relative ages, he's a few years older than Tyrion, who--using the year-per-season rubric--will be 40 in show time in S8. (Jaime and Cersei turned 40 in Season 4, Tyrion was 36 in Season 4, and one year passes per season.) So TV Tyrion will be 40 in S8, meaning Sandor will be 43 in S8. He's still 25 years TV Sansa's senior and still old enough to be her father. 

D&D would have cast a much younger (and much more attractive) man for Sandor if they seriously intended Sansa to end up with him. Instead, they cast a man the same age as the actors playing the other creepy old men in Sansa's life, one of whom had his saintliness reinforced by his disgust at his attraction to her despite her age, and the other having his lust for Sansa linked to his villainy. It's pretty easy to read between the lines.

 

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And let's not forget Sansa was married to Tyrion played by Dinklage who is the same age as Rory McCann, and at that time Sophie was a teenager, (actually playing a 14 year-old girl) so I don't think there is any problem for season 8

This would be an argument if Tyrion and Sansa had had a romantic or sexual relationship, which of course they did not, not to mention that the show had Tyrion wringing his hands about how young Sansa was and deeply conflicted about being attracted to her (lest we think that Tyrion was anything other than a saint, of course). And as stated before, that Tyrion and Sandor's actors are the same age is evidence against Sandor and Sansa ending up together, not in favour of it.

[jcmontea]

Just now, Newstar said:

If we're using the books as a measure of the characters' relative ages, he's a few years older than Tyrion, who--using the year-per-season rubric--will be 40 in show time in S8. (Jaime and Cersei turned 40 in Season 4, Tyrion was 36 in Season 4, and one year passes per season.) So TV Tyrion will be 40 in S8, meaning Sandor will be 43 in S8. He's still 25 years TV Sansa's senior and still old enough to be her father. 

D&D would have cast a much younger (and much more attractive) man for Sandor if they seriously intended Sansa to end up with him. Instead, they cast a man the same age as the actors playing the other creepy old men in Sansa's life. It's pretty easy to read between the lines. 

This is a great point.

If this was really the end game, the actor would be different. 

Honestly, i don’t think there is anyone outside of forums and tumblr who ships these two. 

[Faera]

3 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

I am going to go out on a pretty strong limb and say most people either where pro-jonerys or indifferent. T

Aha, I was pretty much in favour of "Jonaerys" or whatever they call it until I actually saw it. It doesn't surprise me what it is popular at all but its execution was not done very well in the tight space they had, which meant we as viewers had to fill in the gaps. It isn't hard to imagine dreamy Jon Snow and beautiful Daenerys Targaryen together, after all.

 

18 minutes ago, Newstar said:

LOL, can you blame them? I'd rather watch Kit Harington swing a sword real good than act; at least he can do the former well.

 

I concur.

 

4 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

That's because they had no book material.I am sure that WInds will feature more than just a resolution of the LSH plot

Well, I agree. However, a part of making this show was getting some outline of what is supposed to happen with the characters from GRRM that he was willing to share. By dropping LSH and not coming up with a valid alternative, you basically just ended up with Jaime bumming around for three seasons not progressing. Same with Brienne and the comical adventures of her and Podrick.

[Meera of Tarth]

@Newstar  I don't understand your maths. If Sandor was 35 in the pilot (see the source please), how could he be 43 in s8? 8 years have not passed since season 1. If that was true, how is it possible that s4 that covers a trial that lasts a few weeks, season 5 covering also weeks/months for Stannis, season 7 covering Cersei's meetings with the iron bank (that covers a fortnight and thus just a maximum of two months all the season, we also have the pregnancy example) cover 4 years?

Might I note that even with your maths, he would not be 25 years older, LOL.

I understand your doubts, since the writing is actually horrible, and Tommen aged many years in some weeks......

20 minutes ago, Newstar said:

D&D would have cast a much younger (and much more attractive) man for Sandor if they seriously intended Sansa to end up with him. Instead, they cast a man the same age as the actors playing the other creepy old men in Sansa's life, one of whom had his saintliness reinforced by his disgust at his attraction to her despite her age, and the other having his lust for Sansa linked to his villainy. It's pretty easy to read between the lines.

Also @Newstar  not casting a more attractive man for playing Sandor, meaning they are not endgame is not a convincing argument (especially for a BATB story and Rory being attractive) 

[Le Cygne]

9 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Also @Newstar  not casting a more attractive man for playing Sandor, meaning they are not endgame is not a convincing argument (especially for a BATB story and Rory being attractive) 

No, seriously, did someone just say the BEAST should be MORE ATTRACTIVE!!!

Here are the Beauty and the Beast parallels:

https://romancingthecage.tumblr.com/post/90157713456

(And the show has been dropping beauty and beast hints for both Sansa and the Hound and Jaime and Brienne throughout...)

[Meera of Tarth]

3 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

No, seriously, did someone just say the BEAST should be MORE ATTRACTIVE!!!

Here are the Beauty and the Beast parallels:

https://romancingthecage.tumblr.com/post/90157713456

It really happened!

I mean, if they were doing another Princess Disney movie, or a  TV show in which teenagers go crazy with their actors, this could be an argument

[jcmontea]

9 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

It really happened!

I mean, if they were doing another Princess Disney movie, or a  TV show in which teenagers go crazy with their actors, this could be an argument

What really happend? What in season 2 indicated romance? Based on the show there is no romance. 

[Meera of Tarth]

42 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

What really happend?

Newstar said that Rory is not attractive enough to portray Sansa's prince.

But hers is a Beauty and the Beast story, just like the one from this thread, Jaime and Brienne. George really likes writing this type of stories.  The BatB hints

[Newstar]

26 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

@Newstar  I don't understand your maths. If Sandor was 35 in the pilot (see the source please), how could he be 43 in s8? 8 years have not passed since season 1. (...)

Also @Newstar  not casting a more attractive man for playing Sandor, meaning they are not endgame is not a convincing argument (especially for a BATB story and Rory being attractive) 

I believe in production they have said one year roughly equals one season. Interestingly, if Sandor was 35 in the pilot, he'd be 43 in S8, which is just what I said, isn't it? 

As for Rory McCann's attractiveness...beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that, but LOL, no. His main claim to fame prior to GOT was as the "Yarp" guy from Hot Fuzz, for crying out loud, not romantic lead material. Someone who looks like Richard Armitage, on the other hand...(Still way, way too old, but undeniable romantic lead material.)

[Meera of Tarth]

5 minutes ago, Newstar said:

As for Rory McCann's attractiveness...beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that, but LOL, no. His main claim to fame prior to GOT was as the "Yarp" guy from Hot Fuzz, for crying out loud, not romantic lead material. Someone who looks like Richard Armitage, on the other hand...(Still way, way too old, but undeniable romantic lead material.)

mm....Actors can play different type of characters. And the story is clearly BATB based, just like Brienne's.....

[jcmontea]

15 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Newstar said that Rory is not attractive enough to portray Sansa's prince.

But hers is a Beauty and the Beast story, just like the one from this thread, Jaime and Brienne. George really likes writing this type of stories.  the link posted by LeCygne has examples.

There is a difference between having beauty and the beast parallels and showing a romance. 

I am sorry, but I have watched season 2 several times and I never saw anything romantic. I saw nods to Beauty and the Beast, but nothing more than that.