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[Book Spoilers] Jaime & Brienne- What's going on?


Meera of Tarth

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14 minutes ago, sapphire_lion said:

The acts Jaime has committed are not his values. They are his shame. They are his failures.

But let's also be honest, and take into consideration that these acts were not committed out of wanton sadism/cruelty. 

At heart, Jaime has values, or should I say ideals, he never lived up to. Which are very similar to those of Brienne's. Now, that he has cut ties with his past. He has the chance to live up to the values/ideals. 

GRRM also compared Jaime to Michael Vick (ran a dogfighting ring), Woody Allen (sexually abused his daughter, groomed and then married his adoptive daughter), Roman Polanski (child rapist), and a theoretical Nazi concentration camp guard, but I'm sure those acts weren't committed out of wanton sadism or cruelty, either, and weren't a reflection of those fine gentlemen's high-minded moral values. LOL 

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19 minutes ago, Lysander said:

lol, right? 

I was speaking of the honor, bravery, and chivalry Jaime displayed when he saved Brienne from gang rape. Or when he jumped in front of a bear, maimed and empty-handed to protect her. He is a fallen character. Obviously, there are terrible acts Jaime has committed. But his good acts were fueled by the good values that he shares with Brienne. 

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9 minutes ago, Newstar said:

GRRM also compared Jaime to Michael Vick (ran a dogfighting ring), Woody Allen (sexually abused his daughter, groomed and then married his adoptive daughter), Roman Polanski (child rapist), and a theoretical Nazi concentration camp guard, but I'm sure those acts weren't committed out of wanton sadism or cruelty, either, and weren't a reflection of those fine gentlemen's high-minded moral values. LOL

This is extremely intellectually dishonest as well. LMAO. GRRM listed them as examples of fallen people. But then asked that if these people paid their debt to society and/or spent their lives making amends, could they be redeemed? And he said that he hoped that redemption was possible. Nice try.

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One of the things I wanted to explore with Jaime, and with so many of the characters, is the whole issue of redemption. When can we be redeemed? Is redemption even possible? I don't have an answer. But when do we forgive people? You see it all around in our society, in constant debates. Should we forgive Michael Vick? I have friends who are dog-lovers who will never forgive Michael Vick. Michael Vick has served years in prison; he's apologized. Has he apologized sufficiently? Woody Allen: Is Woody Allen someone that we should laud, or someone that we should despise? Or Roman Polanski, Paula Deen. Our society is full of people who have fallen in one way or another, and what do we do with these people? How many good acts make up for a bad act? If you're a Nazi war criminal and then spend the next 40 years doing good deeds and feeding the hungry, does that make up for being a concentration-camp guard? I don't know the answer, but these are questions worth thinking about. I want there to be a possibility of redemption for us, because we all do terrible things. We should be able to be forgiven. Because if there is no possibility of redemption, what's the answer then? -GRRM

 

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4 minutes ago, sapphire_lion said:

This is extremely intellectually dishonest as well. LMAO. GRRM listed them as examples of fallen people. But then asked that if these people paid their debt to society and/or spent their lives making amends, could they be redeemed. And he said that he hoped that redemption was possible. Nice try.

You engaged in an unsuccessful attempt to invoke GRRM to show why Jaime's not such a bad guy. GRRM himself compared Jaime to child rapists and mass murderers upthread. Nice try. Terrible failure, though. :) 

FYI, trying to minimize Jaime's actions, including the attempted murder of a child, is never a good look. The guy's an asshole, as GRRM would be the first to tell you. Deal with it.

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24 minutes ago, Newstar said:

You engaged in an unsuccessful attempt to invoke GRRM to show why Jaime's not such a bad guy. GRRM himself compared Jaime to child rapists and mass murderers upthread. Nice try. Terrible failure, though. :) 

Wrong on every count.

First off, I was not trying to show "why Jaime's not such a bad guy". I successfully demonstrated that he has values/ideals he shares with Brienne, which he has displayed during his best acts. Not his worst.

Secondly, I successfully invoked GRRM to explain the context of his bad actions. Not my fault you guys conveniently and willfully ignore the author's words and stated intent.

Thirdly, GRRM did not compare Jaime to a child rapist. That is wholly dishonest. He listed a series of fallen people of varying varieties. All bad, but not the same. Or is Paula Deen like a child rapist too?

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Nice try. Terrible failure, though. :) 

Take a mirror out and repeat this to yourself. :D

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FYI, trying to minimize Jaime's actions, including the attempted murder of a child, is never a good look. The guy's an asshole, as GRRM would be the first to tell you. Deal with it.

FYI, I quoted the author. If I'm minimizing Jaime's actions by doing so, then so was GRRM.

FYI, I think Jaime is an asshole.

FYI, Assholes can be redeemed. 

FYI, Jaime may get a redemption arc even if you really don't want him to. Deal with it.

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44 minutes ago, Newstar said:

You engaged in an unsuccessful attempt to invoke GRRM to show why Jaime's not such a bad guy. GRRM himself compared Jaime to child rapists and mass murderers upthread. Nice try. Terrible failure, though. :) 

FYI, trying to minimize Jaime's actions, including the attempted murder of a child, is never a good look. The guy's an asshole, as GRRM would be the first to tell you. Deal with it.

when i think about redemption i just think about stannis' quote:

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'A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good. Each should have its own reward.'

now i'm not a stannis fan but i think this quote is pretty on point.and i think this is what GRRM is asking readers to think about in regards to redemption for chars like theon and jaime. but since the bad acts can never truly be washed out, is a full redemption possible? i don't think so.

for eg. lets say someone like roman polanski donating to RAINN would not wash just automatically away that he's a child rapist and the pain and trauma he caused his victims even as the money he donates to charity could help future victims. 

this is basically why i think jaime is doomed. this is the guy who fathered bastards with his sister. he was responsible for creating a situation that ultimately led to a bloody devastating civil war. he shares responsibility along with people like LF, Cersei, Lysa for all the lives lost in that war.

so yeah i think jame's arc will continue to ask questions like this but i can't see there ever being a moment like "ok this guy is 100% good now. Absolved and completely and utterly repented of every shitty thing he did" because that's an absolutely lazy and simplistic take. life doesn't work like that lmao. 

so I think redemption can only be achieved in the sense that a bad person STOPS doing bad things. but not in the sense that those bad things could just be completely erased as if they never committed them in the first place. 

And jaime still has "rewards" to earn from the bad things he did as stannis would say lol. 

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50 minutes ago, larastone said:

when i think about redemption i just think about stannis' quote:

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'A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good. Each should have its own reward.'

now i'm not a stannis fan but i think this quote is pretty on point.and i think this is what GRRM is asking readers to think about in regards to redemption for chars like theon and jaime. but since the bad acts can never truly be washed out, is a full redemption possible? i don't think so.

for eg. lets say someone like roman polanski donating to RAINN would not wash just automatically away that he's a child rapist and the pain and trauma he caused his victims even as the money he donates to charity could help future victims. 

this is basically why i think jaime is doomed. this is the guy who fathered bastards with his sister. he was responsible for creating a situation that ultimately led to a bloody devastating civil war. he shares responsibility along with people like LF, Cersei, Lysa for all the lives lost in that war.

so yeah i think jame's arc will continue to ask questions like this but i can't see there ever being a moment like "ok this guy is 100% good now. Absolved and completely and utterly repented of every shitty thing he did" because that's an absolutely lazy and simplistic take. life doesn't work like that lmao. 

so I think redemption can only be achieved in the sense that a bad person STOPS doing bad things. but not in the sense that those bad things could just be completely erased as if they never committed them in the first place. 

And jaime still has "rewards" to earn from the bad things he did as stannis would say lol. 

That's your personal point of view. Which is fine. My views are more inline with GRRM.

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I want there to be a possibility of redemption for us, because we all do terrible things. We should be able to be forgiven. Because if there is no possibility of redemption, what's the answer then? -GRRM

 

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except nothing GRRM is saying goes against the stannis quote lol. in fact the stannis quote is basically reinforcing the GRRM quote.  its saying that good acts have merit and value so its not dismissing forgiveness. but it just also saying that bad acts can't be erased which is true. you can't just undo attempted child murder. 

most people here haven't been saying that jaime's acts mean nothing and have no value, they just don't think that his bad acts can be erased. there's a difference lol. its the whole "forgive but not forget" mantra. and there really isn't any point in telling people to abandon their moral convictions. 

fwiw i don't think that all the character who've done fucked up things will die. for example. i think theon will survive the series. but i don't think this because i think that theon will achieve some "ultimate" redemption moment which will spell out "now its 100% ok and forgiven that theon killed 2 kids" but more because i think theon has been broken down and battered so much that him surviving isn't as much of a reward than a challenge. i don't think that's the case with jaime so i think he'll croak

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21 minutes ago, larastone said:

except nothing GRRM is saying goes against the stannis quote lol. in fact the stannis quote is basically reinforcing the GRRM quote.  its saying that good acts have merit and value so its not dismissing forgiveness. but it just also saying that bad acts can't be erased which is true. you can't just undo attempted child murder. 

most people here haven't been saying that jaime's acts mean nothing and have no value, they just don't think that his bad acts can be erased. there's a difference lol. its the whole "forgive but not forget" mantra. and there really isn't any point in telling people to abandon their moral convictions. 

fwiw i don't think that all the character who've done fucked up things will die. for example. i think theon will survive the series. but i don't think this because i think that theon will achieve some "ultimate" redemption moment which will spell out "now its 100% ok and forgiven that theon killed 2 kids" but more because i think theon has been broken down and battered so much that him surviving isn't as much of a reward than a challenge. i don't think that's the case with jaime so i think he'll croak

Just to clarify, I don’t think Jaime’s bad deeds will ever be washed out. But I think he has the capability to perform good deeds going forward. He just may accomplish some truly noble acts. And even if he dies, I think he will have earned some form of personal redemption before he goes. Moreover, Jaime’s death/punishment cannot undo his past. But what he does going forward can help others. I see value in that.

However, I don’t see value in continuing this discussion, because it began in bad faith.

Some posters distorted one of my comments and attacked me for it. When literally all I was suggesting was that at heart both Jaime and Brienne value integrity. They value bravery. The value honor. They value strength. That Jaime saw honor in Brienne and valued that honor. That Brienne saw honor in Jaime too. And valued that aspect of his character. Again, these are values and ideals they share. But none of this means that Jaime is absolved of his past sins and failures. It does not mean his character is pure of heart. Nor did I ever claim anything of the sort.

On a separate issue, Jaime did not push Bran out a window out of sheer sadism. That’s just a fact. One which GRRM has explicitly reiterated himself. Getting attacked for stating a fact is nonsensical. If you have to stoop to such dishonest tactics, your arguments are not worth much.

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4 hours ago, sapphire_lion said:

Agreed. They clicked because at heart they have the same values and interests. Sure, at first he just wanted to mock and disregard her. But that wasn't possible for him. He respected her as a warrior when he saw her fight. He respected her as a knight when he saw her honor. He wanted her as a woman when he saw her bare in the baths. Of course, he repressed those feelings on their first journey together. I don't see him being able to on their second. 

The repression of feelings yes!

How do you think it will play out next season? It would be funny to especulate about that. As i have stated in thia thred before, I rhink that Tormund could play a role (a funny one) in regards to him beinf jeaulous or aomething. Will be Jaime breaking the ice or it will be Brienne the one who takes the next step further in their relatio ahip? :)

 

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43 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

The repression of feelings yes!

How do you think it will play out next season? It would be funny to especulate about that. As i have stated in thia thred before, I rhink that Tormund could play a role (a funny one) in regards to him beinf jeaulous or aomething. Will be Jaime breaking the ice or it will be Brienne the one who takes the next step further in their relatio ahip? :)

 

I think Tormund will inadvertently play a part in pushing Jaime into admitting his feelings. But it will be a process. First, I expect a Red Ronnet type scene. Watching Jaime act out in a fit of jealousy is just too good to pass up.

I also imagine that Bronn will be heading out of KL soon enough (Jerome Flynn and Lena Headey will not share scenes). It's likely he'll show up North not long after Jaime. He'll have no problem calling out Jaime's jealousy. Tyrion will likely pick up on it too. A scene like the one between Brienne and Cersei in Season 4 could occur. "But you love her." Followed by a non-denial. DnD have said Jaime is uncomfortable with his feelings for Brienne, but I doubt he's ever allowed himself to examine why. This would be the first time he's forced to admit them to himself.

Then there's also the fact that they're going to be in a life or death situation. The possibility of losing Brienne, whether in battle or to another will inevitably be a major wake up call. I see him kissing her within the first two episodes. 

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3 hours ago, sapphire_lion said:

Just to clarify, I don’t think Jaime’s bad deeds will ever be washed out. But I think he has the capability to perform good deeds going forward. He just may accomplish some truly noble acts. And even if he dies, I think he will have earned some form of personal redemption before he goes. Moreover, Jaime’s death/punishment cannot undo his past. But what he does going forward can help others. I see value in that.

Agreed. I do think an important theme of the books is "what do people do with their lives after they've lost everything'? Characters like Theon and Jaime have been driven to places emotionally where death would seem like the easy way out, but instead of giving up, they're alive and have the opportunity to choose differently. 

Ultimately, I think on a thematic level, ASOIAF skews more towards idealism than nihilism.

By the end of books, I suspect that Jaime will have atoned for his past, but the chances of his atonement ending in a big heroic sacrifice (read: killing then dying with Cersei) are looking pretty good to me. . 

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Some posters distorted one of my comments and attacked me for it. When literally all I was suggesting was that at heart both Jaime and Brienne value integrity. They value bravery. The value honor. They value strength. That Jaime saw honor in Brienne and valued that honor. That Brienne saw honor in Jaime too. And valued that aspect of his character. Again, these are values and ideals they share. But none of this means that Jaime is absolved of his past sins and failures. It does not mean his character is pure of heart. Nor did I ever claim anything of the sort.

There's a difference between valuing a noble quality in the abstract, and actually expressing that noble quality through your actions. In their early interactions, Jaime is still obsessed with Cersei, and having an adulterous affair with your queen is the least thing to do with integrity.

Does Brienne exemplifying those knightly qualities shine a light on Jaime's own failings? Yes. The emotional struggle of Jaime's character is whether or not he's strong enough to live up to his ideals. 

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1 hour ago, Lysander said:

Agreed. I do think an important theme of the books is "what do people do with their lives after they've lost everything'? Characters like Theon and Jaime have been driven to places emotionally where death would seem like the easy way out, but instead of giving up, they're alive and have the opportunity to choose differently. 

Ultimately, I think on a thematic level, ASOIAF skews more towards idealism than nihilism.

By the end of books, I suspect that Jaime will have atoned for his past, but the chances of his atonement ending in a big heroic sacrifice (read: killing then dying with Cersei) are looking pretty good to me. . 

There's a difference between valuing a noble quality in the abstract, and actually expressing that noble quality through your actions. In their early interactions, Jaime is still obsessed with Cersei, and having an adulterous affair with your queen is the least thing to do with integrity.

Does Brienne exemplifying those knightly qualities shine a light on Jaime's own failings? Yes. The emotional struggle of Jaime's character is whether or not he's strong enough to live up to his ideals. 

This. If you have values it means you live them. Jaime admires values Brienne has. He used to have those values. But he does not truly share them because he does not live them. But those values are what he finds attractive about Brienne. 

I also think Jaime will do heroic deeds. I think he and dany will develop a good relationship which will be big for him since she will let the past be the past and it will be big for her because the person who best knows the mad king will not hold her being his daughter against her. I think Bran will forgove him for throwing him out the window. I think he will find forgivness up north and play a key role defeating the AOTD. However, i think he is ultimatley doomed to die with Cersei despite that because Cersei will succeed in taking him with her when she commits suicide. I say this not as a judgement on whether redemption is possible or not, but just based on the foreshadowing in the show and my belief that that is the third big twist at the end. The true tragedy of Jaime will be that just as he has finally become a hero and his sister will find a way to destroy him as she destroys herself. 

You may be able to find redemption, but what you can’t do is escape your past. But we will see. 

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7 hours ago, Newstar said:

Ah yes, the old "That would never happen because it would suck" argument. That worked out really well for Stannis fans who insisted that Stannis would NEVAH burn Shireen, anti-Jonerys fans who insisted that Jon would NEVAH fall for Dany, etc. etc.

Its funny how easily people get tripped up by this argument. Its really hard so I understand. Answering the question what will happen is tough and inherently probabalistic since foreshadowing can be nothing more than unintentional or a red herring. The more we don’t want something to happen the easier it is to put things in the unintentional red herring bucket. Its a lot easier to substitute that question with what I want to happen. 

On a question i care about - Dany surviving and being succesful - I personally think it would be stupid if she dies. However, i have to remind myself that doesn’t mean squat and that there is potential foreshadowing for her death so its possible. 

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59 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

Its funny how easily people get tripped up by this a. Its really hard sond. Answering the question what will happen is tough and inherently probabalistic since foreshadowing can be nothing more than unintentional or a red herring. The more we don’t want something to happen the easier it is to put things in the unintentional red herring bucket. Its a lot easier to substitute that question with what I want to happen. 

On a question i care about - Dany surviving and being succesful - I personally think it would be stupid if she dies. However, i have to remind myself that doesn’t mean squat and that there is potential foreshadowing for her death so its possible. 

Why talk about this topic? I think everyone has discussed their views on it. Derailing the Thread once peeople haa agreed to diaagree saying to the others that this is what "i want to happen" (when your arguments could also fall into this category) is not Meaningful at this point. Let's agree to disagree on Cersei's "prophecies". Thanks 

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9 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Why talk about this topic? I think everyone has discussed their views on it. Derailing the Thread once peeople haa agreed to diaagree saying to the others that this is what "i want to happen" (when your arguments could also fall into this category) is not Meaningful at this point. Let's agree to disagree on Cersei's "prophecies". Thanks 

To be fair i was responding to both someone’s comments that was not you and that is what you said. It couldn’t happen because george would right that because it would suck.

my argument doesn’t rest on it being what i want to see. I don’t care one way or the other if Jaime dies at Cersei’s hands, survives or if he dies with Brienne. All can work so long as the execution is good. 

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2 hours ago, jcmontea said:

Its funny how easily people get tripped up by this argument. Its really hard so I understand. Answering the question what will happen is tough and inherently probabalistic since foreshadowing can be nothing more than unintentional or a red herring. The more we don’t want something to happen the easier it is to put things in the unintentional red herring bucket. Its a lot easier to substitute that question with what I want to happen. 

I dunno, I think it's pretty straightforward: distinguish between what you WANT to happen and what you THINK will happen. "X will never happen because that would suck" --> "I hope X never happens because I would hate it." Easy peasy.

It's fine if fans don't want Jaime to die because they love the character and they're hoping against hope that he's going to get to ride off into the sunset with Brienne and make babies with her, but they should be intellectually honest about it instead of trying to claim that Jaime's just a misunderstood good guy who hasn't done anything all that bad and who earned a happy ending, or trying to deny that very obvious foreshadowing pointing to a darker fate for Jaime is something other than it is.

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1 minute ago, Newstar said:

I dunno, I think it's pretty straightforward: distinguish between what you WANT to happen and what you THINK will happen. "X will never happen because that would suck" --> "I hope X never happens because I would hate it." Easy peasy.

It's fine if fans don't want Jaime to die because they love the character and they're hoping against hope that he's going to get to ride off into the sunset with Brienne and make babies with her, but they should be intellectually honest about it instead of trying to deny that very obvious foreshadowing pointing to a darker fate for Jaime is something other than it is.

:agree:

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17 minutes ago, Newstar said:

I dunno, I think it's pretty straightforward: distinguish between what you WANT to happen and what you THINK will happen. "X will never happen because that would suck" --> "I hope X never happens because I would hate it." Easy peasy.

The entire ASOIAF fandom would like a word with you, lol.

See: Stannis fans, N+A=J truthers, anti-Dany/Targaryen folks, Jonsa stans, etc. Oh, and this thread. 

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