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[Book Spoilers] Jaime & Brienne- What's going on?


Meera of Tarth

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8 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

rhink that Tormund could play a role (a funny one) in regards to him beinf jeaulous or aomething.

“If you look at the story, I should have a scene with Tormund Giantsband. That would be fun." -Nikolaj Coster Waldau

http://www.instyle.com/news/nikolaj-coster-waldau-game-of-thrones-tormund-alive

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22 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Heheh yes, Nik has a lot of fun with the interviews, but he is a great JB shipper ultimately :P

He's been very focused on Tormund in his latest interviews. It makes me wonder. Could it be because these characters will be clashing next season?

Love his trolling in any case.

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2 hours ago, Newstar said:

I dunno, I think it's pretty straightforward: distinguish between what you WANT to happen and what you THINK will happen. "X will never happen because that would suck" --> "I hope X never happens because I would hate it." Easy peasy.

It's fine if fans don't want Jaime to die because they love the character and they're hoping against hope that he's going to get to ride off into the sunset with Brienne and make babies with her, but they should be intellectually honest about it instead of trying to claim that Jaime's just a misunderstood good guy who hasn't done anything all that bad and who earned a happy ending, or trying to deny that very obvious foreshadowing pointing to a darker fate for Jaime is something other than it is.

Nailed it 100%. Thank you

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19 minutes ago, sapphire_lion said:

He's been very focused on Tormund in his latest interviews. It makes me wonder. Could it be because these characters will be clashing next season?

Love his trolling in any case.

 

Threesome? Anyone?

Or foursome: Jaime/Brienne/Tormund/Sandor

In all seriousness, his mention of Tormund really is making me look forward to some (potential) interactions between the two. It'll probably be fanservicey but who the heck cares? Let the JaimeTormundBowl begin!

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5 minutes ago, Faera said:

It'll probably be fanservicey but who the heck cares? Let the JaimeTormundBowl begin!

Exactly! Besides, how fanservicey was it the last time Jaime smacked that other ginger on Brienne's behalf? They should just embrace it, and hell, even use some of the dialog from the source material.

"You are speaking of a highborn lady, Wildling. Call her by her name. Call her Brienne."

It will be a welcomed respite against the dreary backdrop of the Great War.

Quote

Let the JaimeTormundBowl begin!

I actually understand how the CleganeBowl people feel now. Get Hype.

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4 hours ago, jcmontea said:

To be fair i was responding to both someone’s comments that was not you and that is what you said. It couldn’t happen because george would right that because it would suck.

my argument doesn’t rest on it being what i want to see. I don’t care one way or the other if Jaime dies at Cersei’s hands, survives or if he dies with Brienne. All can work so long as the execution is good. 

Ok. Just wanted to add that our arguments are not based on what we would like to see as well but on insight from the books, and that Cersei has been wrong with other "prophecies" as I explained yesterday (Jaime has left her), also that when she was rifht with burning people it was c she was determined to do so (thisdoes notwant to die with him literally) apart from thr fact that then Jaime's "prophecy" doesn't fit (as I explained yesterday so I won't do that again). And yes, it happens to be that I "prefer" him npt to die with her since itwoukd be a terrible ending, but I have my arguments to think he won't. Also, my preferred ending doesnt involve him dying with Brienne either. So I have nothing else to say about thus Topic. We will see next season. I will discuss other things from now on.

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1 hour ago, sapphire_lion said:

“If you look at the story, I should have a scene with Tormund Giantsband. That would be fun." -Nikolaj Coster Waldau

http://www.instyle.com/news/nikolaj-coster-waldau-game-of-thrones-tormund-alive

He is a super fan andnundertands the character perfectly. We will have it. I wonder what Brienne's reaction will be? I supposr she won't be seeing then talking abouther......but wgat if she did? :P

 

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On 15/10/2017 at 6:39 PM, Newstar said:

 

I agree. I remember a fan on another board who argued that it would be cruel and selfish of Sansa to keep Brienne tethered to her in service, a notion that mystifies me. Brienne seems perfectly happy serving Sansa, just as she would have been happy serving Catelyn had she lived longer. If Brienne survives, I could equally see her continuing to serve Sansa at Winterfell or accompanying Arya on her travels.

 

Yeah but that's because show Brienne is , like most of the characters on this show, a shell with little inner life. The only time I actually believe she is a person is when she interacts with Jaime (and the occasional good scene with Pod), and even that pales in comparison to the books. She is not 'happy' serving Sansa, she's just a glorified bodyguard who isn't supposed to have an inner life. Funnily enough, Jaime has basically gotten the same treatment throughout seasons 4-7 (last scene excluded).

 

There is an emphasis (in the books, but in the show as well) on Brienne being the sole heir to her house, on her betrothals and marriage in general, and one could argue on her motherly side through her relationship with Pod. She is an independant, important character whose fate isn't serving a teenage girl until she dies.I hope the show tries to somewhat fix that for the last season.

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15 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

Yeah but that's because show Brienne is , like most of the characters on this show, a shell with little inner life. The only time I actually believe she is a person is when she interacts with Jaime (and the occasional good scene with Pod), and even that pales in comparison to the books. She is not 'happy' serving Sansa, she's just a glorified bodyguard who isn't supposed to have an inner life.

I disagree. Brienne seemed upset when Sansa rejected her service the first time around and deeply moved and gratified when Sansa accepted it in Season 6. If she were a mere shell, she wouldn't have had much of an opinion one way or another.

 

Quote

There is an emphasis (in the books, but in the show as well) on Brienne being the sole heir to her house, on her betrothals and marriage in general, and one could argue on her motherly side through her relationship with Pod.

Brienne and Pod's relationship is far closer to mentor/mentee (or, now that I think of it, senpai/kouhai) than mother/son.

 

Quote

She is an independant, important character whose fate isn't serving a teenage girl until she dies.I hope the show tries to somewhat fix that for the last season.

Well, Sansa won't be a teenager forever, and as LOW she'll always need competent guards (as Arya pointed out). Both Sansa and Brienne get a lot out of their relationship: Sansa gets the honourable knight she always wanted to protect and defend her, and Brienne gets a chance to be valued and respected for what she does best. Brienne accepts Sansa as a lady worthy of her service, and Sansa accepts Brienne as a worthy and trusted protector. They both seem perfectly happy with the arrangement, so why mess with it?

Also, if Renly had lived, Brienne would have served him until she died as part of his KG. She was already willing to forswear marriage and motherhood several seasons ago, and there's no indication that she'd be any less willing to do so now.

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brienne and jaime have both had fanfic written for them since the show cut stoneheart. for jaime, it was about his devotion to cersei and for brienne, it was her devotion to the stark girls. if the D's wanted they could have easily had jaime/brienne reunite way early and go on some kind of adventure in which they have an encounter that's supposed to be come kind of proxy for the LSH conflict with the books and hit those same beats etc etc. that makes me think that jaime's connection to cersei and brienne's connection to the stark girls is important for both characters' endgames rather than it just being over now that they're reunited lol.

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53 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

Yeah but that's because show Brienne is , like most of the characters on this show, a shell with little inner life. The only time I actually believe she is a person is when she interacts with Jaime (and the occasional good scene with Pod), and even that pales in comparison to the books. She is not 'happy' serving Sansa, she's just a glorified bodyguard who isn't supposed to have an inner life. Funnily enough, Jaime has basically gotten the same treatment throughout seasons 4-7 (last scene excluded).

 

There is an emphasis (in the books, but in the show as well) on Brienne being the sole heir to her house, on her betrothals and marriage in general, and one could argue on her motherly side through her relationship with Pod. She is an independant, important character whose fate isn't serving a teenage girl until she dies.I hope the show tries to somewhat fix that for the last season.

They already did in this scene :)

Sansa doesn't need her protection / wached over/ cared for anymore (in her words).. When Jaime arrives, Brienne will forget those oaths completely :o

I'm not a child, and I'm LOW

The trip to KL is long....

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30 minutes ago, Newstar said:

I disagree. Brienne seemed upset when Sansa rejected her service the first time around and deeply moved and gratified when Sansa accepted it in Season 6. If she were a mere shell, she wouldn't have had much of an opinion one way or another.

 

Brienne and Pod's relationship is far closer to mentor/mentee (or, now that I think of it, senpai/kouhai) than mother/son.

 

Well, Sansa won't be a teenager forever, and as LOW she'll always need competent guards (as Arya pointed out). Both Sansa and Brienne get a lot out of their relationship: Sansa gets the honourable knight she always wanted to protect and defend her, and Brienne gets a chance to be valued and respected for what she does best. Brienne accepts Sansa as a lady worthy of her service, and Sansa accepts Brienne as a worthy and trusted protector. They both seem perfectly happy with the arrangement, so why mess with it?

Also, if Renly had lived, Brienne would have served him until she died as part of his KG. She was already willing to forswear marriage and motherhood several seasons ago, and there's no indication that she'd be any less willing to do so now.

1) She midly reacted to stuff . At best .Compared to her having her own character arc in which we learn more about her past, her personality, and her desires (which include a romantic relationship, a wish to live up to her father's expectations, etc...), it's a bit lacking, to say the least.

2) I meant in the books. They've turned her into a bully in the show, not arguing over that.

3) Again, Brienne is a highborn lady, and the sole heir of her house, and ending up as a glorified bodyguard would be a satisfactory end ? It is not.

21 minutes ago, larastone said:

brienne and jaime have both had fanfic written for them since the show cut stoneheart. for jaime, it was about his devotion to cersei and for brienne, it was her devotion to the stark girls. if the D's wanted they could have easily had jaime/brienne reunite way early and go on some kind of adventure in which they have an encounter that's supposed to be come kind of proxy for the LSH conflict with the books and hit those same beats etc etc. that makes me think that jaime's connection to cersei and brienne's connection to the stark girls is important for both characters' endgames rather than it just being over now that they're reunited lol.

So, you have the books (and the author) explicitely telling you that Jaime abandoned Cersei to follow Brienne, that they are "effectively estranged", yet the related subplot is about his devotion to Cersei ?? Where did you get that from ? His last thought about Cersei is "Well guess I gotta go see her unless she's already dead meh" , and I'm barely exaggerating.

 

The Ds cut the LSH storyline because they're not interested in Jaime, Brienne or Catelyn as characters, but have a huge hard-on for Cersei. So what do they do ? They assign both Jaime and Brienne as props for three seasons until they really have no choice but to have them reunite, probably because of GRRM's endgame.

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5 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

Yeah but that's because show Brienne is , like most of the characters on this show, a shell with little inner life. The only time I actually believe she is a person is when she interacts with Jaime (and the occasional good scene with Pod), and even that pales in comparison to the books. She is not 'happy' serving Sansa, she's just a glorified bodyguard who isn't supposed to have an inner life. Funnily enough, Jaime has basically gotten the same treatment throughout seasons 4-7 (last scene excluded).

 

There is an emphasis (in the books, but in the show as well) on Brienne being the sole heir to her house, on her betrothals and marriage in general, and one could argue on her motherly side through her relationship with Pod. She is an independant, important character whose fate isn't serving a teenage girl until she dies.I hope the show tries to somewhat fix that for the last season.

Agree!

4 hours ago, Newstar said:

 intellectually honest about it instead of trying to claim that Jaime's just a misunderstood good guy who hasn't done anything all that bad and who earned a happy ending, or trying to deny that very obvious foreshadowing pointing to a darker fate for Jaime is something other than it is.

From an "intellectually honest" person I expect something more that believing the first and easiest explanation of a foreshadowing. You can say Jaime is gonna die for any reason but not because of  the dream. Cersei uses the plural while GRRM describes the swords light in singular. Jaime understands like you, but it doesn't mean anything; we don't know what could have happened, the possible endings could be infinite. I know you can think something more than that...

It is true that I would like to see Jaime survives with Brienne etc etc, I think it could happen but I also know that he could easily die. What I never thought instead was that Brienne could die before Jaime (and maybe one of the first in the final battle). After season 7 and even after some fake leaks I'm starting to wonder if I was wrong. The scripts we were talking some days ago bother me a bit: iirc there were 2 outlines from the same day, one with name and one with blurred name. I thought they were the same scripts but now I see that in 7x07-with-name Brienne was not there. I remembered differently. Am i wrong? In 7x06-with-name brienne is with sansa winterfell in scene 6.11 and then she is also in the lake scene with the Hound (thinking she was gonna die there right before dany arrives), so they were changing the plot. So why there is not Brienne in 7x07?

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2 hours ago, sapphire_lion said:

He's been very focused on Tormund in his latest interviews. It makes me wonder. Could it be because these characters will be clashing next season?

Love his trolling in any case.

 

2 hours ago, Faera said:

In all seriousness, his mention of Tormund really is making me look forward to some (potential) interactions between the two. It'll probably be fanservicey but who the heck cares? Let the JaimeTormundBowl begin!

HIS BEST FRIEND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!He would marry him!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lmao:

The Norwegian GUY!! Tormund

He is hilarious

 

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16 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

1) She midly reacted to stuff . At best .Compared to her having her own character arc in which we learn more about her past, her personality, and her desires (which include a romantic relationship, a wish to live up to her father's expectations, etc...), it's a bit lacking, to say the least.

2) I meant in the books. They've turned her into a bully in the show, not arguing over that.

3) Again, Brienne is a highborn lady, and the sole heir of her house, and ending up as a glorified bodyguard would be a satisfactory end ? It is not.

Yeah, a female character has goals and priorities other than marriage and popping out babies and finds peace, happiness and fulfillment elsewhere. Shocking!

Opining that Brienne ending up as a "glorified bodyguard" rather than marrying and having kids would be an "unsatisfactory end" for her appears to show a fundamental misunderstanding of the character. It reeks of sexism as well. 

You know who else sneered at serving as a sworn knight as being no better than a "glorified bodyguard"--using that exact phrase, by the way--as a way of shitting on that person's choices? Tywin. Don't be like Tywin.

 

15 minutes ago, Cridefea said:

What I never thought instead was that Brienne could die before Jaime (and maybe one of the first in the final battle). After season 7 and even after some fake leaks I'm starting to wonder if I was wrong. The scripts we were talking some days ago bother me a bit: iirc there were 2 outlines from the same day, one with name and one with blurred name. I thought they were the same scripts but now I see that in 7x07-with-name Brienne was not there. I remembered differently. Am i wrong? In 7x06-with-name brienne is with sansa winterfell in scene 6.11 and then she is also in the lake scene with the Hound (thinking she was gonna die there right before dany arrives), so they were changing the plot. So why there is not Brienne in 7x07?

I thought Brienne died in the 7x06 outline as well, but as I dimly recall--those outlines have been pretty much scrubbed from /Freefolk--Brienne does appear in either the 7x07 outline or script summary: Brienne apologizes to Jon for showing up in Sansa's place, saying she tried to convince Sansa (or words to that effect).

I wouldn't pay any attention to any of the S8 alleged leaks if I were you, although it's pretty funny that although there have been at least six or seven fake S8 leaks to date, in none of them did Jaime hook up with, much less end up with Brienne. I guess even the fake leakers think that that's far too implausible for the /Freefolk crowd to buy, LOL, which should give you some idea as to how unlikely it is.

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1 minute ago, Newstar said:

Yeah, a female character has goals and priorities other than marriage and popping out babies and finds peace, happiness and fulfillment elsewhere. Shocking!

Opining that Brienne ending up as a "glorified bodyguard" rather than marrying and having kids would be an "unsatisfactory end" for her appears to show a fundamental misunderstanding of the character. It reeks of sexism as well. 

You know who else sneered at serving as a sworn knight as being no better than a "glorified bodyguard"--using that exact phrase, by the way--as a way of shitting on that person's choices? Tywin. Don't be like Tywin.

 

 

OH BOY Are you really pulling the sexist card on me ?! The entire point of Brienne's arc is to show her that her ideals (knighthood, vows, etc...) aren't exactly what she imagined and that things she deemed impossible (being a lady AND a knight) might actually become true. Saying Brienne is only about being a knight is just as false as saying she is only meant to be a lady. What is so fascinating about her character is that she wants to be and is BOTH. I don't see why having *gasp* a romantic relationship with someone who respects her as BOTH would prevent her from pursuing her chivalric ideals. I cannot stress this enough : she wants to be a lady as much as she wants ti be a knight, but she's always felt that these two elements were mutually exclusive, and since she would never be good at the former, she went for the latter. Because she had little choice : try and be a knight or be married to someone who doesn't even respect you and could abuse you whenever they felt like it. However we know someone who would actually let her be herself and actually appreciated her for who she is, and that is Jaime fucking Lannister.

 

Does it mean that she'll end up with ten kids and a small cottage by the sea ? Probably not. It only means that Brienne is much more than Sansa's killing machine.

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21 minutes ago, Newstar said:

 

 

I thought Brienne died in the 7x06 outline as well, but as I dimly recall--those outlines have been pretty much scrubbed from /Freefolk--Brienne does appear in either the 7x07 outline or script summary: Brienne apologizes to Jon for showing up in Sansa's place, saying she tried to convince Sansa (or words to that effect).

I wouldn't pay any attention to any of the S8 alleged leaks if I were you, although it's pretty funny that although there have been at least six or seven fake S8 leaks to date, in none of them did Jaime hook up with, much less end up with Brienne. I guess even the fake leakers think that that's far too implausible for the /Freefolk crowd to buy, LOL, which should give you some idea as to how unlikely it is.

i have all the leaked outlines for season 7 saved on my laptop 

this is what it says for brienne's survival for ep 6 before she was cut from the wight hunt:

Quote

Brienne won’t make it. She may not make it anyway. Gendry wants toknow why the Lord of Fucking Light can’t send them a bit of fire, seeing as they’ve gone to so much trouble to help him out with his big war. Brienne’s already bleeding, doesn’t that count for anything? We know how much he likes blood.Brienne would rather freeze to death than owe the goddamn Lord of Light any favors.

and later on....

Quote

The Hound says he’ll stay behind and watch over Brienne; it’s her sword, after all. She tells him not to be stupid. They need the Hound’s help more than she does. With him on their side, they may be able to hack their way out. Brienne has resigned herself to dying on this island.

so her resigning herself to death is the last mention of her in ep 6 when she was originally supposed to be in the wight hunt. there's no cut scene afterwards which says she survived the wight hunt or anything like that or her recovering in bed like jon does later on. 

now i don't think that 100% means she was supposed to die in the original scripts but i do think its interesting that the D's didn't later assure that brienne was alive after this scene in the wight hunt? 

if brienne was supposed to survive then maybe the D's cut her because they thought a major human death during the wight hunt was neccessary and thats why they killed beric. idk its kind of confusing tbh lol. 

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3 minutes ago, larastone said:

i have all the leaked outlines for season 7 saved on my laptop 

this is what it says for brienne's survival for ep 6 before she was cut from the wight hunt:

and later on....

so her resigning herself to death is the last mention of her in ep 6 when she was originally supposed to be in the wight hunt. there's no cut scene afterwards which says she survived the wight hunt or anything like that or her recovering in bed like jon does later on. 

now i don't think that 100% means she was supposed to die in the original scripts but i do think its interesting that the D's didn't later assure that brienne was alive after this scene in the wight hunt? 

if brienne was supposed to survive then maybe the D's cut her because they thought a major human death during the wight hunt was neccessary and thats why they killed beric. idk its kind of confusing tbh lol. 

Huh. Could you check the 7x07 outline to see if I was right about the bit with Brienne speaking with Jon at the dragonpit? Because I could have sworn I saw that somewhere.

I also thought that after Brienne resigns herself to dying that there's some line like "Now would be a really good time for Dany to show up" and Dany swoops in on her dragons. I could be mistaken, though.

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35 minutes ago, Newstar said:

Huh. Could you check the 7x07 outline to see if I was right about the bit with Brienne speaking with Jon at the dragonpit? Because I could have sworn I saw that somewhere.

I also thought that after Brienne resigns herself to dying that there's some line like "Now would be a really good time for Dany to show up" and Dany swoops in on her dragons. I could be mistaken, though.

you're close, dany showing up happens after jorah falls through ice:

Quote

Their moment is interrupted by the sound of Jorah falling through the ice. He barely manages to climb out again.
Soaking wet and freezing to death, he’s so cold he can barely move.
Learning from what they’ve just seen Jorah and Tormund do, a
few wights head onto the ice from spread out locations around
the lake shore, heading toward Jorah. Tormund moves to help
him, and Beric steps out onto the ice as well. It won’t help;
the wights are going to reach Jorah first, and either kill
him, or fall through the ice and take Jorah with them.
This would be a good time for Dany to come to the rescue,
swooping into view from behind the mountains. Luckily, she
does just that.

the only mention of brienne in the leaked outline for 7x07 is this:

Quote

Sansa might also bring up sending Brienne away, and how she
used it to trap Littlefinger and make him think she was under
his spell.
But in reality she needed an representative and
she no longer needed a bodyguard, because she had her sister.

now obviously this was added after brienne was cut from the wight hunt. but otherwise there's no other specific scene of brienne in 7x07. D&D only added her 7x07 scenes later on. no scene of her reconnecting with the hound about arya. and no "fuck loyalty" convo with jaime. jaime leaves the dragonpit while just exchanging a glance with tyrion.

Quote

Cersei leaves the Dragonpit with her coterie. Jaime is
conflicted, but he goes with her, after giving Tyrion a
parting look that says, “Do something about this."

 

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