Meera of Tarth

[Book Spoilers] Jaime & Brienne- What's going on?

1,010 posts in this topic

38 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

Yes. I agree with that. It would be a sort of cosmic judgement on his past and punishment for what lady olena said.

”she is a disease. I regret my role in spreading it. You will too.”

Ultimately, karma's a bitch, and Jaime has racked up some very bad karma. People who think he's going to get to waltz into the sunset with Brienne are kidding themselves.

While I'm confident Brienne will outlive Jaime, I'm less certain she'll survive the series. 

 

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For me, Jaime's redemption arc signifies him moving away from Cersei's influence and looking at the world from a perspective divorced from the Lannister perspective. Becoming someone with an open mind who can empathize with others and care about others, not just his family. Him dying with Cersei, exactly as she wants, would signify to me that Cersei got her way in the end and Jaime failed to get rid of her influence.

I've always felt that Jaime's so-called redemption arc is bullshit, and it's been clearly telegraphed in the show that Cersei will be the end of him. Dying with Cersei is a foregone conclusion at this point.

Edited by Newstar

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38 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

Yes. I agree with that. It would be a sort of cosmic judgement on his past and punishment for what lady olena said.

”she is a disease. I regret my role in spreading it. You will too.”

I had loved that interaction between Jaime and Olena. Jaime tries to justify his decision to back Cersei and Olena shows him error every time. I think it made Jaime introspect. He could see Cersei was getting more and more unhinged every single day, but he kept telling himself the ends would justify the means. But hearing from someone else the same reservations he had about Cersei probably made him think and reconsider.

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20 minutes ago, Newstar said:

Ultimately, karma's a bitch, and Jaime has racked up some very bad karma. People who think he's going to get to waltz into the sunset with Brienne are kidding themselves.

While I'm confident Brienne will outlive Jaime, I'm less certain she'll survive the series.

I dont Jaime and Brienne will have a textbook happy ending, but I can see a romantic arc in store for them.

 

22 minutes ago, Newstar said:

I've always felt that Jaime's so-called redemption arc is bullshit, and it's been clearly telegraphed in the show that Cersei will be the end of him. Dying with Cersei is a foregone conclusion at this point.

Why do you think Jaime's redemption arc is a farce?

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19 minutes ago, Newstar said:

Ultimately, karma's a bitch, and Jaime has racked up some very bad karma. People who think he's going to get to waltz into the sunset with Brienne are kidding themselves.

While I'm confident Brienne will outlive Jaime, I'm less certain she'll survive the series. 

Why are you so confident she outlives him? 

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9 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

Why are you so confident she outlives him? 

The dream in ASOS where he's warned by Cersei that he'll die when the fire in his sword goes out, and it goes out before Brienne's:

Quote

The fires that ran along the blade were guttering out, and Jaime remembered what Cersei had said. No. Terror closed a hand about his throat. Then his sword went dark, and only Brienne's burned, as the ghosts came rushing in.

To be fair, Brienne is one of those characters who may have a different ending in the books than in the show. I don't think that Brienne's status as the heir to Tarth means that she'll necessarily be spared, either. Didn't GRRM specifically warn us that Brienne wasn't safe?

Edited by Newstar

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7 minutes ago, Newstar said:

The dream in ASOS where he's warned by Cersei that he'll die when the fire in his sword goes out, and it goes out before Brienne's:

To be fair, Brienne is one of those characters who may have a different ending in the books than in the show. I don't think that Brienne's status as the heir to Tarth means that she'll necessarily be spared, either. Didn't GRRM specifically warn us that Brienne wasn't safe?

Interesting.

I could see her dying first because she just seems sort of pointless at this point. Her arc is over, Tarth is not important in the books. Her death would be perfect to give Jaime loss in the great war. And she isn’t necessary to mourn Jaime because Tyrion is there to mourn him when he falls.

but that quote is money and at least in the books your right and prob in the show too.

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6 hours ago, jcmontea said:

Interesting.

I could see her dying first because she just seems sort of pointless at this point. Her arc is over, Tarth is not important in the books. Her death would be perfect to give Jaime loss in the great war. And she isn’t necessary to mourn Jaime because Tyrion is there to mourn him when he falls.

but that quote is money and at least in the books your right and prob in the show too.

I took the dream to mean that Jaime and Brienne might face some kind of danger together. Jaime wakes up before the fire in his sword goes out, so its not definite that he is meant to die. In the books, it could be foreshadowing for their encounter with lady stoneheart.

As for the show, I think everyone with valyrian steel is important somehow. And Brienne has a sword that was once Ice. She is an important Stark loyalist in the show and I think she will play a major role in the battle against the NK.

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18 hours ago, Newstar said:

The dream in ASOS where he's warned by Cersei that he'll die when the fire in his sword goes out, and it goes out before Brienne's:

To be fair, Brienne is one of those characters who may have a different ending in the books than in the show. I don't think that Brienne's status as the heir to Tarth means that she'll necessarily be spared, either. Didn't GRRM specifically warn us that Brienne wasn't safe?

I wouldn't be surprised if Brienne and Jaime will both go out in very different ways to the show. They have both been long, long been off book plot since S4 chiefly due to the Lady Stoneheart plot being dropped. Their story seems to be tied up with her in the books, in the show, they feel like they've sort of been left of tap for a few years until they could get them into the Great War.

I wouldn't be surprised if Jaime and Brienne died before ADOS gets underway.

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15 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

I took the dream to mean that Jaime and Brienne might face some kind of danger together. Jaime wakes up before the fire in his sword goes out, so its not definite that he is meant to die. In the books, it could be foreshadowing for their encounter with lady stoneheart.

I agree with that.

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15 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Jaime wakes up before the fire in his sword goes out

No, he doesn't. Reread the quote:

Quote

The fires that ran along the blade were guttering out, and Jaime remembered what Cersei had said. No. Terror closed a hand about his throat. Then his sword went dark, and only Brienne's burned, as the ghosts came rushing in.

 

Quote

I wouldn't be surprised if Brienne and Jaime will both go out in very different ways to the show. They have both been long, long been off book plot since S4 chiefly due to the Lady Stoneheart plot being dropped. 

I think Cersei's death and Jaime's death will be connected in the books, so if you think TV Cersei will have the same fate as she does in the books, then it stands to reason that Jaime will as well.

Edited by Newstar

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Considering the fact that in the first(?) draft for S7, Brienne was not only supposed join the wight-raid north of the wall, but also was gonna die there (it got changed to Thoros in the final version of course), it leads me to believe that while Briennes death in S8 is by no means a certainty, it at least proves that the writers considering killing her of. 

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7 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Considering the fact that in the first(?) draft for S7, Brienne was not only supposed join the wight-raid north of the wall, but also was gonna die there (it got changed to Thoros in the final version of course), it leads me to believe that while Briennes death in S8 is by no means a certainty, it at least proves that the writers considering killing her of. 

No, it didn't say she was 100% gonna die. It was a mere description of the present situation.  The draft didn't say "she has died". It said simmilar things about Jon Snow, as well. She has a role to play, even if it's minor, because if not, all the building up of the JB romance would have been absurd; not to mention that she could have died after killing Stannis, since she has not done anything else relevant for the BIG story.

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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28 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

No, it didn't say she was 100% gonna die. It was a mere description of the present situation.  The draft didn't say "she has died". It said simmilar things about Jon Snow, as well. She has a role to play, even if it's minor, because if not, all the building up of the JB romance would have been absurd; not to mention that she could have died after killing Stannis, since she has not done anything else relevant for the BIG story.

does anyone have the quote? i thought i read that she died north of wall and it was not ambiguous. 

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4 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

does anyone have the quote? i thought i read that she died north of wall and it was not ambiguous. 

Can't find it right now either (but I remember that you and I discussed it and we seemed to agree on that most changes from that outline where for the better), but I too recall that the quote more or less was "Brienne dies north of the wall" or something, and not very ambiguous. 

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4 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Can't find it right now either (but I remember that you and I discussed it and we seemed to agree on that most changes from that outline where for the better), but I too recall that the quote more or less was "Brienne dies north of the wall" or something, and not very ambiguous. 

Found a comparison which was not the actual outline. But what the outline supposedly said was that Brienne would be the one mauled by the bear (not Thoros) and implied she died but was not definitive on her dying or not. 

So indeed its somewhat ambigious if you want to have hope that Brienne has an end game that is not death. 

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Ah, gotcha. Since Thoros died after being mauled it's implied that Brienne would die to, but yes there's some ambiguity to hold on to in that quote.
Either way it didn't happen, but it still seems that the writers are toying with the idea of, if not outright killing her, then at least having her very badly injured. I'm not really a Briamie or...Jamienne(?)-shipper, but their storyarc's would feel unfinished if they didn't meet up at least one more time (which it seems they will now.)

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5 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Ah, gotcha. Since Thoros died after being mauled it's implied that Brienne would die to, but yes there's some ambiguity to hold on to in that quote.
Either way it didn't happen, but it still seems that the writers are toying with the idea of, if not outright killing her, then at least having her very badly injured. I'm not really a Briamie or...Jamienne(?)-shipper, but their storyarc's would feel unfinished if they didn't meet up at least one more time (which it seems they will now.)

So which was the last quote about Brienne then? 

Exactly, it's not about being a shipper, it's obvious Brienne would not have died in the wight hunt due to the story they have developed. Jon was also injured as well and he recovered in the boat.

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25 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

So which was the last quote about Brienne then? 

Exactly, it's not about being a shipper, it's obvious Brienne would not have died in the wight hunt due to the story they have developed. Jon was also injured as well and he recovered in the boat.

Jon is not Brienne. Its obvious Jon can’t die. Brienne can easily die. 

But agreed. She needed to meet Jaime one more time. 

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1 hour ago, Newstar said:

I think Cersei's death and Jaime's death will be connected in the books, so if you think TV Cersei will have the same fate as she does in the books, then it stands to reason that Jaime will as well.

I think that Jaime will die, while trying to stop Cersei from igniting wildfire under KL. The Mountain will kill him, or mortally wound him. In the book there was described a very vivid scene, seen by Ned Stark, with Jaime on Iron Throne. So I think that when he will be dying, he will be sitting on Iron Throne, and bleeding out. And this his final scene will be seen by Brienne.

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2 hours ago, jcmontea said:

Found a comparison which was not the actual outline. But what the outline supposedly said was that Brienne would be the one mauled by the bear (not Thoros) and implied she died but was not definitive on her dying or not. 

So indeed its somewhat ambigious if you want to have hope that Brienne has an end game that is not death. 

Although I hardly need point it out, Jaime/Brienne shippers probably shouldn't get their hopes up for S8 Jaime/Brienne romance if D&D were indeed planning on killing off Brienne during the wight hunt.

 

Edited by Newstar

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