Meera of Tarth

[Book Spoilers] Jaime & Brienne- What's going on?

480 posts in this topic

10 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

When I posted that on another thread, I mentioned this, but I think it's worth noting here that NCW seems rather frustrated with his character:

 

Exactly, NCW is an amazing actor. He does his best with ShowJaime given the script he has, even if his actions are sometimes (Larry and Carol) silly. I couldn't picture anyone doing this better. And when he is with Gwen they do have a great chemistry together.

But even when he is with Lena, they do their best with that script. Other actors wouldn't do a better job. But their last scene together when he finally looks at his sister again was priceless for me after that wholse season playing season 1 Jaime. And not only this, he tries to play a consistent Jaime when he can....when Cersei tells him he must leave, he portrays a Jaime that is damaged by her sister, and Cersei portrays a bad Cersei, one that no longer cares for her lover. So, as soon as he has the opportunity, he plays reals Jaime. But of course, these opportunities are not the normal things because of the script and the obsession with twincest everywhere, even when the characters have changed.

And we can't forget NCW got Brienne as his character in a quiz!!!

Edited by Meera of Tarth

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

   A spoon of knife and fork said:

Quote

 

I don't think it's normal for a character that has changed to become a knight to say they are the only ones who matter.

It's a whole different thing. He was in the process of changing. Now, he should not be saying those things. Definitely an extremely bad chose of words unless they want to shock us with a new change out of a sudden, which I suspect will happen, considering their last scene together.

 

 

 

As I said, I know it's from the books and he is playing kingslayer too. But for someone who hasn't read the books and has seen 6 episodes of s6 Jaime it's not as easy to understand. They may think he is doing everything only for Cersei. Are they a pack? That's what they chose, to shock us later, but he is diminissed as a mere secondary (and not smart) because of that.

 Moreover, I still complain he had to mention her, why should he if he is changing as you mentioned? Apart from that, convincing? He sounded convincing until he mentioned he loved her sister, that made him more vulnerable, if anything.

Quote

 

I wasn't talking about that, show only version is very inconsistent, with or without the books. I said he is written as a puppet in Kingslanding, especially. But if you don't think he is, I can't make you think the contrary. In my opinion, someone who just follows orders and doesn't question anything is not written as someone witty.

And yes, I would love to see him written similarly to the books. But.... I loved him the first 4 seasons (except for the rape scene). I loved him as a show character before reading the books, after s4. Then I realised that they didn't made his platonic story with Brienne as obvious than in the books "I dreamed of you" but was OK, in fact, I still liked both versions. What I don't like is constant changes of characterisation since s5, but especially s6. I also mentioned that I was OK with Cersei's whiter version.

They didn't make Tyrion confess Cersei's adultery to Jaime because they wanted to make their twincest relationship stay longer. You are assuming a lot of things that I also thought, but the problem is that these shouldn't be assumptions or speculation, or happening offscreen. An scene with Cersei confessing to Jaime she is guilty of anything, or either, that she is guilty of something and Jaime deciding to be bitter but also conforting her, having issues, or pardoning her, would have been more effective for his arc. He is a mere secondary until Riverrun. But they wanted to shock us with the Mad Queen Scene and Jaime looking furious. It doesn't make sense. She walked naked in front of everyone!!

 

Yeah!  And she was obviously changed by the experience.  Jaime, full of empathy, took that change as a possible path to redemption.  In reality, Cersei only became more subtle, darker, but no less vengeful.  But Jaime has no particular reason to think that the WoS was based on anything but fabricated by the HS.  Arming the faith was a mistake.  

The one thing which is Cerseis worst sin, was her manufacturing of Marg and Loras' inprisonment.  I think that is one thing that he doesn't know about because he clearly would not be cool with that.  So maybe that's a little harder to believe.  However it's not like the Tyrells or Kevan are talking to Jaime.  They appear to assume he's in Cerseis pocket.  

2 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

 

Why doesn't he suspect anything? Why are we assuming he pardoned her ALL her sins? And which sins? Too many questions, and that makes Cersei a better written character in comparison, but Jaime becomes a puppet, more secondary than the Mountain.

 

I mean I cringe every time they kiss, etc, but I'm pretty sure that's what they were going for. 

NCW has pointed out in interviews it's an abusive relationship - I think that's true.  It's very very hard for the victim in such relationships to break free.  It's hurt / comfort stuff.  We say "run!  She's a liar!  Don't trust her!!"  And then we face palm when he goes back, and says what she wants to hear, like a lot of abuse victims.  Its only when the victim is apart from the abuser that they see things more clearly.  Especially when they are near someone who loves them purely, instead of selfishly...

2 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

 

 

 

Cersei doesn't want to explode everything when Jaime is commanded to leave. Maybe it's her Plan B, but in that moment she is confident she will have trial by combat and that he is not needed, not even to stay with her, she just doesn't care. She just needs himt o conquer the last castle, which will be Tommen's=hers.

 

No, she was definitely already looking for a way to use the wildfire.  Remember after Tommen declared TbC illegal she asked Qyburn about it in a way that clearly indicated they'd had a previous conversation about the it. 

if things had gone according to plan she didn't need Jaime (since he's useless in a Trial by combat) and if they didn't, she needed him gone so she'd be free to act violently without his interference.

2 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

 

 

I can agree with that.

Im just not sure what Jaime should have done this season other than what he did.  I guess it would have been fun to have a conversation between them which was more tulmultous but Cersei was doing a good job of keeping him happy.  She even tried to work with the Tyrells!  I think we'll see that next season because now Cersei doesn't give a single fuck about what anyone else thinks.  Even Jaime.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My biggest concern about the sins is that IIRC the walk of shame was for her sleeping with Lancel, and I supposed Jaime should know about it. Could he be oblivious about that because he is a vicim? For me it's hard to believe, but even so I think he should have some questions. Instead of asking her about that, he did whathever he commanded.  But we can't forget that her whole world maybe cheated on him! In the books, he didn't see that, Tyrion tells him, and he believes him. Here, he should at least figure out that something was going on. Just something. But instead, he denies that to himself (we have to suppose that happens offscreen) and is happier than ever with her.....mmmm...I can't buy that.

Jaime wasn't a victim of abusive behaviour before that. Do we have have to suppose it's because he failed saving Myrcella? There are a lot of "I suppose", and a show shouldn't have the viewer try to make sense of what they are doing when things don't make sense.

And the other thing is that he used to be smart  (as he also appears to be when he is far away from her in s6), why does he act like a puppet when he is with her? why doesn't he ask anything?  why doesn't he try to investigate what the hell happened? A HS can't take control of a capital just because of nothing. He knew Loras' sins, then.....why has the HS to be lying about her?

I would prefer to have answers to all these questions. I can't understand S6 Jaime, and even if I try, that's what all we have tried, for me it's not satisfying, not well-written.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

My biggest concern about the sins is that IIRC the walk of shame was for her sleeping with Lancel, and I supposed Jaime should know about it. Could he be oblivious about that because he is a vicim? For me it's hard to believe, but even so I think he should have some questions. Instead of asking her about that, he did whathever he commanded. 

Every thing he did which she suggested was something he'd do anyway.  It's not like she told him to do anything particularly awful.  She even gave him the chance to play the Hero with the Tyrells.

12 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

But we can't forget that her whole world maybe cheated on him! In the books, he didn't see that, Tyrion tells him, and he believes him. Here, he should at least figure out that something was going on. Just something.

Option 1 is he heard of the charges and assumes they are BS / overblown / manufactured, just like the charges against Marg.

option 2 he believes it's true and forgives her.

option 3 is he doesn't know or care what the charges were.  They were clearly a product of torture.

12 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

But instead, he denies that to himself (we have to suppose that happens offscreen) and is happier than ever with her.....mmmm...I can't buy that.

He doesn't seem exactly "happy" with Cersei to me (though I know I used that word wrt Cerseis efforts).  Does he ever smile in her presence?  Does he seem relaxed?  I'd say he seems... artificially passionate?  Desperate?  Agitated?  I think he was really worried without him there that Cersei would revert and do something terrible - that's the reason he was desperate to not leave / get back.

12 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Jaime wasn't a victim of abusive behaviour before that. 

Hes been a victim of emotional abuse in this relationship since day 1, or at least since he joined the KG.  

12 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Do we have have to suppose it's because he failed saving Myrcella?

It seemed to me that Jaime expected rage from Cersei when he came back with their dead daughter.  Her sorrow would be much more terrifying than that.  

12 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

There are a lot of "I suppose", and a show shouldn't have the viewer try to make sense of what they are doing when things don't make sense.

And the other thing is that he used to be smart  (as he also appears to be when he is far away from her in s6), why does he act like a puppet when he is with her? why doesn't he ask anything?  why doesn't he try to investigate what the hell happened?

What's to investigate?  And Regardless of what happened he's KG and duty bound to the King.  

12 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

A HS can't take control of a capital just because of nothing.

He knows that was her fault.  She fucked up and now HS is a powerful enemy.  But why should he abandon her for a mistake?  What's the choice he has here?

12 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

He knew Loras' sins, then.....why has the HS to be lying about her?

HS is a lying liar that lies.  The charges against Marg in particular are bullshit.  The charges against Loras are religious fanaticism.

12 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I would prefer to have answers to all these questions. I can't understand S6 Jaime, and even if I try, that's what all we have tried, for me it's not satisfying, not well-written.

I found it to be a realistic portrayal of someone who almost escaped an abusive relationship, but gets pulled back in due to really good impulses - to protect his family, to do his duty.  And because he hopes she can still be saved. 

to be honest Jaime in s6 is arguably more upright than the book version.  Since he didn't abandon Tommen and his duty to the crown. Not that I didn't understand that.  He also had his vow to Catelyn to consider, and his personal duty towards Brienne.  Nor would I have minded terribly if he decided to take off for the North.  But this is good too.  We'll see the real schism this season.  I expect Jaime to survive, and Cersei to die.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I would prefer to have answers to all these questions. I can't understand S6 Jaime, and even if I try, that's what all we have tried, for me it's not satisfying, not well-written.

Season 4 or 5 Jaime, either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

Every thing he did which she suggested was something he'd do anyway.  It's not like she told him to do anything particularly awful.  She even gave him the chance to play the Hero with the Tyrells.

Option 1 is he heard of the charges and assumes they are BS / overblown / manufactured, just like the charges against Marg.

option 2 he believes it's true and forgives her.

option 3 is he doesn't know or care what the charges were.  They were clearly a product of torture.

He doesn't seem exactly "happy" with Cersei to me (though I know I used that word wrt Cerseis efforts).  Does he ever smile in her presence?  Does he seem relaxed?  I'd say he seems... artificially passionate?  Desperate?  Agitated?  I think he was really worried without him there that Cersei would revert and do something terrible - that's the reason he was desperate to not leave / get back.

Hes been a victim of emotional abuse in this relationship since day 1, or at least since he joined the KG.  

It seemed to me that Jaime expected rage from Cersei when he came back with their dead daughter.  Her sorrow would be much more terrifying than that.  

What's to investigate?  And Regardless of what happened he's KG and duty bound to the King.  

He knows that was her fault.  She fucked up and now HS is a powerful enemy.  But why should he abandon her for a mistake?  What's the choice he has here?

HS is a lying liar that lies.  The charges against Marg in particular are bullshit.  The charges against Loras are religious fanaticism.

I found it to be a realistic portrayal of someone who almost escaped an abusive relationship, but gets pulled back in due to really good impulses - to protect his family, to do his duty.  And because he hopes she can still be saved. 

to be honest Jaime in s6 is arguably more upright than the book version.  Since he didn't abandon Tommen and his duty to the crown. Not that I didn't understand that.  He also had his vow to Catelyn to consider, and his personal duty towards Brienne.  Nor would I have minded terribly if he decided to take off for the North.  But this is good too.  We'll see the real schism this season.  I expect Jaime to survive, and Cersei to die.

But then you think it's normal he doesn't care that she slept with another man?

He didn't seem to know about that, and everyone in KG knew.....

Not much investigation is needed to know the truth.

HS is a fanatist, but he doesn't invent everything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As we near the end, I tend to rely on GRRM's comment that the end will be bittersweet.  It helps to think about what the character wants, then imagine a situation where they get it or part of it, or they get all of it, then die.  Jaime seems to want to be a decent man/decent kingsguard. His comments over the White Book, the book of the exploits of the Kingsguard since there was a KingsGuard were that ... I'll hack the bloody book to pieces before I'll fill it with lies. Yet if he would not lie, what could he write but truth? {AFfC, Jaime 1}

Jaime will probably have to kill Cersei which will obliterate forever his chances of being an honorable KG, no matter that we may know the circumstances and that he had no choice. He will have killed 2 royal leaders. That leaves only one person, maybe 2, who see Jaime as he is: Tyrion and Brienne. Jaime will seek out Brienne as someone who makes him want to be a better man, and someone who sees him as he is but I do not think they are destined to be lovers.  He will seek out his reflection in her eyes, and then he will die.  

I do think Brienne deserves better than Jaime, and she certainly deserves a guy who has not been sleeping with his twin sister for like 20 years, no matter how charismatic the dude may be.  I really hope Tormund can step up and be that guy :-)

Edited by lakin1013

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

As we near the end, I tend to rely on GRRM's comment that the end will be bittersweet.  It helps to think about what the character wants, then imagine a situation where they get it or part of it, or they get all of it, then die.  Jaime seems to want to be a decent man/decent kingsguard. His comments over the White Book, the book of the exploits of the Kingsguard since there was a KingsGuard were that ... I'll hack the bloody book to pieces before I'll fill it with lies. Yet if he would not lie, what could he write but truth? {AFfC, Jaime 1}

What you say here is very interesting. I also admit that I have trouble thinking Brienne and Jaime will have a happy ending, despite of the fact I'd love that to happen. Maybe they will have a short romance, or one of them will die, or something similar.

 

Quote

Jaime will probably have to kill Cersei which will obliterate forever his chances of being an honorable KG, no matter that we may know the circumstances and that he had no choice. He will have killed 2 royal leaders. That leaves only one person, maybe 2, who see Jaime as he is: Tyrion and Brienne. Jaime will seek out Brienne as someone who makes him want to be a better man, and someone who sees him as he is but I do not think they are destined to be lovers.  He will seek out his reflection in her eyes, and then he will die.  

I can see Jaime dying and being sad for killing his sister (even that know he is falling out of love from her in the books, but she clearly is still someone who he cares about ) and, in the show, he still loves her, but the beginning of the disillusion happened in the last episode of s6.

But I think that he would still be capable of living a life without her, because what he would have done would have been his duty. If he dies, I hope it's not in the arms of Cersei, but for something greater.

Quote

I do think Brienne deserves better than Jaime, and she certainly deserves a guy who has not been sleeping with his twin sister for like 20 years, no matter how charismatic the dude may be.  I really hope Tormund can step up and be that guy :-)

What matters is not what she deserves, but what she wants. Jaime has changed and they are platonically in love. Tormund is just a replacement of Ser Hyle Hunt from the books. He might be a good guy, but she is already in love with another man.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

What matters is not what she deserves, but what she wants. Jaime has changed and they are platonically in love. Tormund is just a replacement of Ser Hyle Hunt from the books. He might be a good guy, but she is already in love with another man.

Truth. It's not about checking off items on a list, it's about how she feels in her heart, and she loves Jaime.

And I don't think it's platonic love, I think they both have sexual feelings they'd like to act upon with each other. It's just a matter of will there ever be an opening for this to happen in their lives. In the books, I think there already is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Truth. It's not about checking off items on a list, it's about how she feels in her heart, and she loves Jaime.

And I don't think it's platonic love, I think they both have sexual feelings they'd like to act upon with each other. It's just a matter of will there ever be an opening for this to happen in their lives. In the books, I think there already is.

Correct, I think than in the books it's much more than platonic, (we only have to read Brienne's POVS) but in the show, I'd say it's more ambiguous at this moment (although Bronn pointed out the contrary:D), but they are in love. These are their feelings. Brienne wants Jaime, and the best part of it is that it's not only because of his looks.

The problem is whether they will have the courage or the chance for them to be revealed. I'm positive. There have been a lot of hints everywhere.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

But then you think it's normal he doesn't care that she slept with another man?

He didn't seem to know about that, and everyone in KG knew.....

Not much investigation is needed to know the truth.

HS is a fanatist, but he doesn't invent everything.

I already went thru the possibilities here...  

1) he knows the allegations but disregards them since the source is a bunch of fanatics that tortured a confession out of her.  The People of KL know the allegations - only person who knows they are true is Tyrion who found out before Lancel turned fanatic.

2) he believes it might be true but since it was so long ago and she's suffered dearly for it, he forgives her.  A lot of people in long term relationships forgive a single act of adultery.  This isn't "Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and Moonboy for all I know".  It was a single act of seduction.

3) he doesn't know.  No one cares or is talking about Cersei anymore.  

We don't know which.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, lakin1013 said:

As we near the end, I tend to rely on GRRM's comment that the end will be bittersweet.  It helps to think about what the character wants, then imagine a situation where they get it or part of it, or they get all of it, then die.  Jaime seems to want to be a decent man/decent kingsguard. His comments over the White Book, the book of the exploits of the Kingsguard since there was a KingsGuard were that ... I'll hack the bloody book to pieces before I'll fill it with lies. Yet if he would not lie, what could he write but truth? {AFfC, Jaime 1}

I think his whole life Jaime basically wanted two things - to live a quiet life with the woman he loves and to be a great knight, like his heroes.  Cersei, however, wanted to be queen which makes that impossible.  While he can be a knight, but one constantly betraying his vows.  While he can be with the woman he loves, it's a secret and she is sleeping with someone else and raising their kids as his.  

The thing wih Brienne is that he can have both of these dreams completely and uncompromised.  She makes him a better knight - together they could fill books with great deeds.  And There is no reason why they could not marry in peacetime and retire to raise a family if they want.  while her birth is a lot lower they are both nobly born.  Which makes me agree with you that it is far too sweet and not bitter enough.  

If Brienne has to give up honor or duty to be with Jaime, that would be bittersweet.  If Jaime is forced to kill Cersei and never really recovers emotionally from it, that could be bittersweet.  If Jaime takes the black for one crime or another, that would be bittersweet.  If one or both die, with their feelings known, bittersweet.  

I just hope they can admit their feelings at some point.  Maybe just a fleeting moment of happiness.  

4 hours ago, lakin1013 said:

Jaime will probably have to kill Cersei which will obliterate forever his chances of being an honorable KG, no matter that we may know the circumstances and that he had no choice. He will have killed 2 royal leaders. 

Well, Jaime killing Cersei I don't think will be remembered badly by anyone - and he's not KG anymore so it's less a deep betrayal.  I don't think more than a few hundred people consider her rule legitimate.  None of the other kingdoms will reswear to her.  Maybe Iron Islands and whatever Frey now controls the riverlands.  

4 hours ago, lakin1013 said:

That leaves only one person, maybe 2, who see Jaime as he is: Tyrion and Brienne. Jaime will seek out Brienne as someone who makes him want to be a better man, and someone who sees him as he is but I do not think they are destined to be lovers.  He will seek out his reflection in her eyes, and then he will die.  

Quite possible.  Jaime said he would die in the arms of the woman he loves.  Could be Brienne.  

I think Jaime has two big encounters remaining after Whatever happens with Cersei.  He has to encounter the Mad Kings' Daughter and he has to encounter the Boy he pushed.  Either of these encounters may lead to his death or to his taking the Black.  I think a good way for him to go out would be fighting to protect Westeros from existential threat - and doing so as a nameless member of the NW, his deeds not remembered by anyone, or only a few - certainly never put in the White Book.

Quote

I do think Brienne deserves better than Jaime, and she certainly deserves a guy who has not been sleeping with his twin sister for like 20 years, no matter how charismatic the dude may be.

Hey, if his relationship with Cersei shows anything it's that Jaime is a romantically and sexually faithful guy.  He could have had any woman he wanted, but refused to be anything but monogamous towards Cersej.  It's sort of romantic (?) in a way?  

And their relationship was... Not normal in how it started.  Seems like they started fooling around when they were like 8 years old...  So it's debatable about whether they even made a choice... 

Quote

 I really hope Tormund can step up and be that guy :-)

Brienne loves Jaime.  The only conflict for her is between him and her duty.  And there may be a conflict there, especially if they both end up in the North with Jaime wanting to help / ally.  Jon or Sansa or Bran may want him punished for Pushing Bran.  The other Northern lords may still wish him dead / be bitter about Catelyn freeing him.  Possible she lets Jaime go or runs off with him if they demand he dies.

Tormund eyeballing Brienne was hilarious but also a bit creepy, lol.  But I do think for someone like Brienne who believes herself ugly and unlovable in the eyes of men, it is a mixture of confusing, utterly embarrassing, and also somewhat flattering when she had thought it impossible for someone to desire her physically.  So she may actually gain some confidence from it.  Now you and I know Tormund is totes awesome but theres no way this match will happen... Brienne is far too traditional, and into chivalry, etc. I don't think opposites attract in this case! ;) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

 

I think Jaime has two big encounters remaining after Whatever happens with Cersei.  He has to encounter the Mad Kings' Daughter and he has to encounter the Boy he pushed.  Either of these encounters may lead to his death or to his taking the Black.  I think a good way for him to go out would be fighting to protect Westeros from existential threat - and doing so as a nameless member of the NW, his deeds not remembered by anyone, or only a few - certainly never put in the White Book.

 

It's a bit off-topic, but I  just want to say that I agree that these two events seem to be happening in a future, although I don't exactly know how it would go, because that involves the fates of major characters. 

36 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

I already went thru the possibilities here...  

1) he knows the allegations but disregards them since the source is a bunch of fanatics that tortured a confession out of her.  The People of KL know the allegations - only person who knows they are true is Tyrion who found out before Lancel turned fanatic.

2) he believes it might be true but since it was so long ago and she's suffered dearly for it, he forgives her.  A lot of people in long term relationships forgive a single act of adultery.  This isn't "Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and Moonboy for all I know".  It was a single act of seduction.

3) he doesn't know.  No one cares or is talking about Cersei anymore.  

We don't know which.

I think 3) is very unlikely considering the event was a big one

2) could be certain but more scenes should have been needed, so either it's bad-writing (lack of scenes, happened offscreen)  or it's not the one. We have also to take into account that he should have been very angry and the show didn't show this; I mean she slept with Lancel but also manipulated him, and Jaime never slept with any other woman meantime. Some talk was needed. Walk of shame is not what a lover would want to forgive her, it's just a public humiliation because she did something wrong in the religious system;

in Jaime's eyes she doesn't have to suffer or to admit anything to the public eye, what he needs it's to see why she broke their relationship, and if she already loves him. Talk is needed. 

1) I think it's the most likely because number 2 it's very bad writing. But again, that makes Jaime so foolish, very different from book Jaime and if it's not bad writing, it's bad characterisation of Jaime.

Let's hope we find a different Jaime in S7.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

It's a bit off-topic, but I  just want to say that I agree that these two events seem to be happening in a future, although I don't exactly know how it would go, because that involves the fates of major characters. 

I'm so excited for this...  If Jaime dies before it can happen I will be very annoyed.  At least, Jaime has to meet with Tyrion and at least discuss the existence of Daenerys.  

14 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I think 3) is very unlikely considering the event was a big one

I think it's still possible.  I think many people wouldn't necessarily know what the charges were supposed to be - they are too busy cackling over the fall of Cersei to care TBH.  

14 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

2) could be certain but more scenes should have been needed, so either it's bad-writing (lack of scenes, happened offscreen)  or it's not the one. We have also to take into account that he should have been very angry and the show didn't show this; I mean she slept with Lancel but also manipulated him, and Jaime never slept with any other woman meantime. Some talk was needed. Walk of shame is not what a lover would want to forgive her, it's just a public humiliation because she did something wrong in the religious system;

in Jaime's eyes she doesn't have to suffer or to admit anything to the public eye, what he needs it's to see why she broke their relationship, and if she already loves him. Talk is needed. 

Yeah I basically agree with this - this would be poor writing

Quote

1) I think it's the most likely because number 2 it's very bad writing. But again, that makes Jaime so foolish, very different from book Jaime and if it's not bad writing, it's bad characterisation of Jaime.

I don't think it makes him look foolish or stupid at all.  The early scene with the High Sparrow demonstrates Jaime's opinion of him, clearly formulated from what he has learned since returning to King's Landing.  He believes HS to be an opportunist, a mysogynist, a cynic, and a hypocrite ("What about my sins?  Where's my walk of shame?").  Why should Jaime believe anything that comes from him?  And although it actually happens to be true in this case, don't you think that the HS would have found some reason to bring Cersei down, even if she hadn't slept with Lancel?   I think it's absolutely in the nature of the High Sparrow to manufacture charges - Jaime thinks so and I think not without cause.  Jaime would know that Margaery's charges are utter bullshit (she was kidnapped and tortured for nothing more than trying to protect her brother from a bunch of fanatics), and Loras' are being applied only to him and not to the thousands of other gay men in Westeros.  

Jaime is smart enough to see that the High Sparrow is distributing anything but justice - but rather applying punishment arbitrarily as it suits him politically and brings him more power.  It is logical for Jaime to believe that Cersei's punishment is equally arbitrary and unjust, since she was the number one obstacle to the rise of the HS (Loras and Marg were numbers 2 and 3).  In fact, her punishment IS quite arbitrary, given that she hasn't been and never was punished for her actual crimes.

Quote

Let's hope we find a different Jaime in S7.

More of the same is good with me!!  But yes scales have fallen from his eyes surely. 

I do think we will have at least some scenes of him trying to talk sense into Cersei and failing utterly.  These could be similar to the tulmultuous scenes before they parted in sos and ffc, but with Cersei being an order of magnitude scarier.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Quote

I'm so excited for this...  If Jaime dies before it can happen I will be very annoyed.  At least, Jaime has to meet with Tyrion and at least discuss the existence of Daenerys.  

 it would also be interesting to meet Bran again.

 

Quote

I don't think it makes him look foolish or stupid at all.  The early scene with the High Sparrow demonstrates Jaime's opinion of him, clearly formulated from what he has learned since returning to King's Landing.  He believes HS to be an opportunist, a mysogynist, a cynic, and a hypocrite ("What about my sins?  Where's my walk of shame?").  Why should Jaime believe anything that comes from him?  And although it actually happens to be true in this case, don't you think that the HS would have found some reason to bring Cersei down, even if she hadn't slept with Lancel?   I think it's absolutely in the nature of the High Sparrow to manufacture charges - Jaime thinks so and I think not without cause.  Jaime would know that Margaery's charges are utter bullshit (she was kidnapped and tortured for nothing more than trying to protect her brother from a bunch of fanatics), and Loras' are being applied only to him and not to the thousands of other gay men in Westeros.  

Jaime is smart enough to see that the High Sparrow is distributing anything but justice - but rather applying punishment arbitrarily as it suits him politically and brings him more power.  It is logical for Jaime to believe that Cersei's punishment is equally arbitrary and unjust, since she was the number one obstacle to the rise of the HS (Loras and Marg were numbers 2 and 3).  In fact, her punishment IS quite arbitrary, given that she hasn't been and never was punished for her actual crimes.

yes, but my point id that, even if he disregards them, he should, at least think that there's something true in that. Cersei might deny it, but he should have been more distant to her, to say the least.

Quote

More of the same is good with me!!  But yes scales have fallen from his eyes surely. 

I do think we will have at least some scenes of him trying to talk sense into Cersei and failing utterly.  These could be similar to the tulmultuous scenes before they parted in sos and ffc, but with Cersei being an order of magnitude scarier.

In my case, If I see more of s6-KG Jaime I will be extremely disappointed. It's time for Cersei to become really mad and he to understand they can't no longer be in love. Those scenes you mention are intreesting and I'm looking forward to watching them, finally.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

News:

Quote

Jaime returns in triumph, racing home to his love, Cersei, only to see part of King’s Landing smoldering, and a steely Cersei sitting on the Iron Throne. Jaime’s glare is memorable. When you or the director told him what his motivation was to focus what was he thinking, what was the message given to Nikolaj Coster-Waldau?

Benioff & Weiss: We don’t remember the specific wording, but it’s definitely a moment where Jaime has to start coming to terms with how drastically and irrevocably everything in his world has changed—political arrangements, his personal life, everything. He knew his sister was capable of big plays, but this is another level. And Cersei’s look back to him… well, he’s probably always known that she was in charge in their relationship. Now he really knows it.

Every time Cersei vindictively settled a score, she paid a high price. In trying to get back at her daughter-in-law Margaery, she empowered the High Sparrow and his religious fanatics who put her in a prison cell and forced her humiliating nude walk of shame. In the Season 6 finale, she exacts unimaginable cruel revenge on the High Sparrow’s tormenter Septa Unella by making her the plaything of her half-dead bodyguard The Mountain. So he’s not babysitting her king son Tommen, who jumps out a castle window to his death. Was Cersei heartbroken? Has she got any heart left?

Benioff & Weiss: We had intended the connection you just made, so we’re glad you made it. If she had been more focused on her family, and less focused on enjoying her revenge on someone who had done her wrong, then Tommen’s suicide probably never would have happened. That’s what so much of next season is going to be about; finding out what Cersei’s mindset is, and who is she? Cersei has certainly done a lot of horrible things in her life and she could be a very cruel person, but the one thing that was redemptive about her was she genuinely loved her children. Now they’re all gone, and I think that is very interesting for us. Who is she, without her children? The answer is something you’ll find out about next season.

http://deadline.com/2016/08/game-of-thrones-david-benioff-d-b-weiss-emmys-interview-1201803698/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 24 luglio 2016 at 6:57 PM, Meera of Tarth said:

What you say here is very interesting. I also admit that I have trouble thinking Brienne and Jaime will have a happy ending, despite of the fact I'd love that to happen. Maybe they will have a short romance, or one of them will die, or something similar.

 

Same. I would love for them to make it, but i don't think they will (at least in the books, likelly in the show too).

My prediction ... I think Jamie will end up dead (possibly in different moments in the books and the show... now the show will be more conventional about that i guess, but i think in the books it's even possible Jamie doesn't get full closure with his brother or with Brienne, maybe he won't even meet them, because that's what happens in life, especially if he dies murdering Cersei / committing some sort of sacrifice and/or murder-suicide: "we will leave this world together, as we once came into it... I cannot die while Cersei lives. We will die together as we were born together.") while Brienne will survive and in the end, she will lkely take what was Jamies place as Lord Commander of the King(Queen)sguard.

That role defined Jamie's life for better and for worse and in a depressing way, it's kinda 'romantic' that she - who represents the kinight in the shining armor more than any man could ever do and who is the only living person (along with Tyrion) to recognize some inner honor in him and not judge him from the outside as a kingslayer because of Aerys - takes his place.

I can already picture her in a room, alone and thoughtful/moved, while she adds the lines about Jamie heroically dying to save the Kingdom to the White book of the Kingsguard.

Edited by Elisabetta Duò

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, Elisabetta Duò said:

Same. I would love for them to make it, but i don't think they will (at least in the books, likelly in the show too).

My prediction ... I think Jamie will end up dead (possibly in different moments in the books and the show... now the show will be more conventional about that i guess, but i think in the books it's even possible Jamie doesn't get full closure with his brother or with Brienne, maybe he won't even meet them, because that's what happens in life, especially if he dies murdering Cersei / committing some sort of sacrifice and/or murder-suicide: "we will leave this world together, as we once came into it... I cannot die while Cersei lives. We will die together as we were born together.") while Brienne will survive and in the end, she will lkely take what was Jamies place as Lord Commander of the King(Queen)sguard.

That role defined Jamie's life for better and for worse and in a depressing way, it's kinda 'romantic' that she - who represents the kinight in the shining armor more than any man could ever do and who is the only living person (along with Tyrion) to recognize some inner honor in him and not judge him from the outside as a kingslayer because of Aerys - takes his place.

I can already picture her in a room, alone and thoughtful/moved, while she adds the lines about Jamie heroically dying to save the Kingdom to the White book of the Kingsguard.

I think that not making Jaime's and Brienne's destiny together at least for acknowledging their feelings  would be extremely frustrating. In the books their POVs now are mainly about thinking of eachother. As time passes, the more they realise they are in love. And in the show they made "the move" with Bronn's words. 

I think it's plausible to see Jaime dying and Brienne survivinh him as a possible outcome. But something must happen. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎7‎/‎24‎/‎2016 at 0:57 PM, Meera of Tarth said:

Wrong post

 

Edited by Sophia [email protected]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I think that not making Jaime's and Brienne's destiny together at least for acknowledging their feelings  would be extremely frustrating. In the books their POVs now are mainly about thinking of eachother. As time passes, the more they realise they are in love. And in the show they made "the move" with Bronn's words. 

I think it's plausible to see Jaime dying and Brienne survivinh him as a possible outcome. But something must happen. 

Yeah, I never go there beyond "something must happen" with these books. I think the sexual tension is building up to at least sex (loving sex, of course). Checkhov's "fucking instead of fighting" scene. :leer:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now