Meera of Tarth

[Book Spoilers] Jaime & Brienne- What's going on?

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4 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

While Missworm (...really?) had their climax in S7, the buildup for their relationship started way back in S4. There had to be a payoff for them sooner or later (otherwise people would've complained about their relation getting swiped under the rug), and early S7 was a good a time as any. 

Does, let's say..... J/B not have buildup since.......actually before s4?:rolleyes:

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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3 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Does, let's say..... J/B not have buildup since.......actually before s4?:rolleyes:

You should read the rest of my post, I was still editing it when you replied. :P

Jamie and Brienne will most likely have a moment in S8, but there wont be time for establishing "new" romances.

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Longer episodes!

"[The episodes are] definitely going to be bigger and what I hear is longer," says Cunningham, who begins work on the Emmy-winning series on Sunday with a table read in Belfast. "We're filming right up until the summer. When you think about it, up until last season we'd have six months to do ten episodes, so we're [doing] way more than that for six episodes. So that obviously will translate into longer episodes."

http://www.tvguide.com/news/game-of-thrones-season-8-episode-length/

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2 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

You should read the rest of my post, I was still editing it when you replied. :P

Jamie and Brienne will most likely have a moment in S8, but there wont be time for establishing "new" romances.

I think Sansan has buildup in the show. Similar to Arya/Gendry. I also think new romances with no friendship before won't happen in s8.

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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22 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Even if you consider Sandor, Brienne or Gendry as only secondary characters you have to agree on the fact that Jaime, Sansa , and Arya are main ones. And all of them except Bri appeared since season 1. So then, is it set on stone that main characters can only have romances with other main ones? Because....who is left frot them btw?

Because 1) there's no point plot-wise, and with the show so close to the end anything not crucial to the plot, such as secondary or tertiary characters' love lives, is going to be jettisoned--especially with an incredibly consequential romance already eating the show--and 2) there's no time episode-wise.

Attempting to argue that Jon and Dany hooked up over a few short episodes so other characters should be able to do so fails because as pointed out upthread, D&D had to have Jon/Dany happen for reasons that are central to the resolution of the series, and it couldn't happen any earlier than S7 for plot reasons. Apparently, according to GRRM himself Jon and Dany's relationship is the whole point of the series. No one is ever going to say that about Jaime/Brienne, Sandor/Sansa, or Arya/Gendry. It's like comparing a canape to the main course. 

 

18 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Yeah I wouldn't really consider Sandor a main-character. Secondary for sure, but main? Nah.

While Missworm (...really?) had their climax in S7, the buildup for their relationship started way back in S4. There had to be a payoff for them sooner or later (otherwise people would've complained about their relation getting swiped under the rug), and early S7 was a good a time as any. 

Yes and yes. 

Also, Missworm have been physically in the same space for the past several seasons. Sandor and Sansa have been separated since S2, Arya and Gendry since S3, and Jaime and Brienne have had only a few moments together since their separation in S4.

I am curious why some fans are so anxious for Jaime and Brienne to get together, considering it would clearly end in tragedy. The last thing Brienne needs is to have another man she loves die on her, much less die in her arms while she's helpless to prevent it as with Renly. Call me crazy, but I think Brienne deserves better.

Edited by Newstar

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8 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Even if you consider Sandor, Brienne or Gendry as only secondary characters you have to agree on the fact that Jaime, Sansa , and Arya are main ones. And all of them except Bri appeared since season 1. So then, is it set on stone that main characters can only have romances with other main ones? Because....who is left frot them btw?

Let's think of the other main characters from the show: Tyrion, Bran, Cersei, Jon, Dany. None of them looks like is gonna have a romance with Jaime, Sansa, Arya.....

If Jonerys went from nothing to love in 3 episodes, the other romances do have time, since there is building up and the epis are gonna be, possibly, even feauture lenght.

Jonerys went from nothing to love in 4 episodes. But how much screen time did they dedicate to Jon and Dany? They are not going to dedicate that amount of screen time to any other pair. The first scene they were in together was ten minutes. Other pairs would be lucky to get that overall let alone in just their first scene.

The main characters are Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Cersei and Jaime. They are the highest paid group of actors all making the same amount. Tier 2 and arguably Tier 1 if you want to disregard pay as a criteria is Sansa and Arya. A tier below them is Bran and Theon. I put Bran in this category because no way can you be considered top tier if you can disappear for an entire season. 

Everyone else is a secondary character whose arcs are practically resolved and are important more for the roles they play in the above group of characters stories. To the extent romances with secondary characters are a focus, it will be because it plays a key role in the resolution of the arcs of the main group.

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Just now, jcmontea said:

The main characters are Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Cersei and Jaime. They are the highest paid group of actors all making the same amount. Tier 2 and arguably Tier 1 if you want to disregard pay as a criteria is Sansa and Arya. A tier below them is Bran and Theon. I put Bran in this category because no way can you be considered top tier if you can disappear for an entire season. 

Sorry, four.

As for main characters, Arya and Bran are main ones in the books and in the show. Cersei isn't a main one in the books, but she is in the show (unless Winds changes the number of POVS of Cersei, she could be like a 2nd category of mains then).

George has always included Bran and Arya as main ones. They are gonna have important roles in the ending. 

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1 minute ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I think Sansan has buildup in the show. Similar to Arya/Gendry. I also think new romances with no friendship before won't happen in s8.

Sansan always felt very one-sided and was hardly what I'd call romantic. It's possible but I wouldn't personally say there's any real buildup there. Missandei/Greyworm and Brienne/Jamie has had a slow moving buildup, so a climax seemed and seems possible, unlike Sansan which basically boiled down to Horny-Hound-has-fetish-for-small-scared-redhaired-girl-who's-equally-disguested-and-afraid-of-him. :P

Arya/Gendry is possible, at least their earlier relationship was mutually friendly and respectul (unlike Sansan) so you could say that there is a foundation to build on, but if people considered Jonerys to be rushed, then woah, buckle up and put on your seat belt, this romantic development will hit 0-60 so fast you might get whiplash.

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58 minutes ago, Newstar said:

Because 1) there's no point plot-wise, and with the show so close to the end anything not crucial to the plot, such as secondary or tertiary characters' love lives, is going to be jettisoned--especially with an incredibly consequential romance already eating the show--and 2) there's no time episode-wise.

How are you sure of that? What if (just saying) one of the main ones I mention marry  and become Lords of the New Westeros? Even if Jonerys survived and were kings and such.....do you really think that there would not be any other Wardens?

Quote

Also, Missworm have been physically in the same space for the past several seasons. Sandor and Sansa have been separated since S2, Arya and Gendry since S3, and Jaime and Brienne have had only a few moments together since their separation in S4.

What does it have to do with romances? In fact, many romances have characters separated before their final arc!

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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15 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Sorry, four.

As for main characters, Arya and Bran are main ones in the books and in the show. Cersei isn't a main one in the books, but she is in the show (unless Winds changes the number of POVS of Cersei, she could be like a 2nd category of mains then).

George has always included Bran and Arya as main ones. They are gonna have important roles in the ending. 

I am just talking show. I see a difference between having an important role in the ending and being a top tier character whose personal life is a central focus of the show. Bran will have a key role because he is the 3ER. But he is not really a key character. If he was we would have spent time with him in the cave and understood what that emotional experience was like, how his relationship with Meera was during that time etc. instead of just move forward to when he was relevant to the plot again.

This is different from how Jon and Dany are treated who plot wise were peripheral in the early yet we always spent a lot of time with him. Or how Jaime is treated who in season 5 they made up a stupid Dorne plot so he would have something to do.

EDIT: i agree about arya being main. Just by actor salaries could you bump her down a tier to a Tier 1b

Edited by jcmontea

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17 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

I am just talking show. I see a difference between having an important role in the ending and being a top tier character whose personal life is a central focus of the show. Bran will have a key role because he is the 3ER. But he is not really a key character. If he was we would have spent time with him in the cave and understood what that emotional experience was like, how his relationship with Meera was during that time etc. instead of just move forward to when he was relevant to the plot again.

This is different from how Jon and Dany are treated who plot wise were peripheral in the early yet we always spent a lot of time with him. Or how Jaime is treated who in season 5 they made up a stupid Dorne plot so he would have something to do.

I strongly disagree with this. First of all, Bran is the first POV character in the books. Secondly, the show is gonna end like the books. Their decision to not showing him in the cave was because they had no material to work with from the books, and in fact, they decided to do it this way also because they wanted to show his powers having been grown a lot. Not a wise decision. But their decisions are not wise, normally, in terms of storytelling.

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The "who's a main and who's not"-discussion is quite interesting, because what really defines a main character, and when do you get "demoted" to a secondary character? Being the PoV-character in a scene is clearly not enough to make you a "main" character, otherwise we'd drown in main characters.

I'd place the current 7 characters who's been in the most episodes (and presumably have the most screentime) according to IMDB as the 7 remaining main characters; Tyrion, Jamie, Cersei, Jon, Daenerys, Arya and Sansa.
I'm torn on Theon and Bran, who clearly are important to the story, but they just don't feel like mains to me. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't.

jcmontea's point about Jamie/Bran is good; they invented a whole new storyarc for Jamie only to give him screentime, while they left Bran AWOL for a whole season. Jamie's been in 49/67 episodes while Bran has "only" been in 35/67, which is less than a whole bunch of secondary characters! (Jorah, Samwell, LF, Varys, Brienne and Davos.)

In the end though, does it really matter if a character is a main character or a "very involved/important secondary character"? It's not like being a main character/protagonist saves you from death in this show anyway. :P
 

Edited by MinscS2

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27 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:


Arya/Gendry is possible, at least their earlier relationship was mutually friendly and respectul (unlike Sansan) 

Oh, really, do you have examples from the show where their relationship has been unrespectful or unfriendly? Could you also show the examples that actually show the contrary?

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9 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Oh, really, do you have examples from the show where their relationship has been unrespectful or unfriendly? Could you also show the examples that actually show the contrary?

I take it you mean Sandor and Sansa?
Sansa has never been unfriendly to Sandor, but she has never really been friendly or warm towards him either. She was clearly intimidated by him (can't blame her), but I never got the impression that there was any romantic spark between them, at least not from Sansa. Not surprising though since when they last met (Season 2?) she was a child and he was a grown, scary man.

Is it possible that they will develop a romantic relationship in S8? Yes, but I'd say it's very unlikely, and would probably creep a lot of people out.
I would also personally consider it a waste of screen time, since I'd rather the show spends time on established characters and their relationships than forcing forth a pretty unimportant romance between Sansa and Sandor. Unlike Jamie/Brienne and even Arya/Gendry, the show hasn't even (imo) laid a romantic foundation between Sansa and Sandor (no, simply knowing who the other person is not enough), so their relationship really have to start from scratch. Sansa is not the same person she was in S2 and neither is Sandor.

Edited by MinscS2

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29 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

I take it you mean Sandor and Sansa?
Sansa has never been unfriendly to Sandor, but she has never really been friendly or warm towards him either. She was clearly intimidated by him (can't blame her), but I never got the impression that there was any romantic spark between them, at least not from Sansa. Not surprising though since when they last met (Season 2?) she was a child and he was a grown, scary man.

Is it possible that they will develop a romantic relationship in S8? Yes, but I'd say it's very unlikely, and would probably creep a lot of people out.
I would also personally consider it a waste of screen time, since I'd rather the show spends time on established characters and their relationships than forcing forth a pretty unimportant romance between Sansa and Sandor. Unlike Jamie/Brienne and even Arya/Gendry, the show hasn't even (imo) laid a romantic foundation between Sansa and Sandor (no, simply knowing who the other person is not enough), so their relationship really have to start from scratch. Sansa is not the same person she was in S2 and neither is Sandor.

There has been build up, he has saved her many times, and as for the "scary" thing, you should remember than in their last scenes together  she realises he is not gonna hurt her, on the contrary! It's a Beauty and the Beast story, Belle realises that inside the "Beast" there is a man.

If it happens, itwon't be a waste of time, since it would be part of the ending, regardless of people liking it or not. It's not that the show will change the fates bc they want or not. The only thing I can see as changing is the moment when Cersei finally dies so as it to be mmore shocking.

 Creepy is to see people killing others, torture, awful rape scenes, mass murder and too many people, also incest. Love can't be creepy if they love each other.

I agree with your last line, though. Sansa now is less naive and would not fall in love for someone who is just pretty (Joffrey) and is a powerful woman who will choose her own path.

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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32 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

The "who's a main and who's not"-discussion is quite interesting, because what really defines a main character, and when do you get "demoted" to a secondary character? Being the PoV-character in a scene is clearly not enough to make you a "main" character, otherwise we'd drown in main characters.

I'd place the current 7 characters who's been in the most episodes (and presumably have the most screentime) according to IMDB as the 7 remaining main characters; Tyrion, Jamie, Cersei, Jon, Daenerys, Arya and Sansa.
I'm torn on Theon and Bran, who clearly are important to the story, but they just don't feel like mains to me. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't.

jcmontea's point about Jamie/Bran is good; they invented a whole new storyarc for Jamie only to give him screentime, while they left Bran AWOL for a whole season. Jamie's been in 49/67 episodes while Bran has "only" been in 35/67, which is less than a whole bunch of secondary characters! (Jorah, Samwell, LF, Varys, Brienne and Davos.)

In the end though, does it really matter if a character is a main character or a "very involved/important secondary character"? It's not like being a main character/protagonist saves you from death in this show anyway. :P
 

Yea. Its an interesting convo. Only really relevant though to try and predict where things are going by would they really focus on it. 

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1 hour ago, Newstar said:

When the books and show started to diverge more significantly, a lot of the romance got boiled out of the show, so D&D seem to have seized their chance. No Asha/Qarl, no Arianne/Arys, Daario/Dany is downgraded to a FWB-type relationship, etc. etc.

I hadn't thought about it until you said it but you are right, The show really doesn't have much in the way of romance at all... which might go a long way to explain by Jon/Dany was so terribly stilted. They were so out of practice because they wanted to focus on how awesome Dany's dragons are and how good Cersei is at pulling that resting b-face and how awesome Kit Harrington is at sword fighting.

Maybe the fact that so many of these relationships in the books are aided by knowing how the POV characters feel about them makes it easier to "get" the relationships in the books than in the show but... that's no excuse. D&D just like action.

1 hour ago, Newstar said:

But yes, D&D are such boys. Romance is icky girly shit, ew ew ew! Bromances are well and good, but romance? With feelings and everything? Nasty. They were probably relieved when they got rid of Meera.

 

Well, allowing Bran to "keep" Meera would have involved him having emotions and they couldn't have that! Much more important to inexplicably re-write him in the off-season to have as much emotional depth as Siri. It'll make all those inevitable straight-man, funny-man scenes between him and Sam even funnier. Like that message joke. The hilarity, oh, the hilarity!

I bet they won't milk that sort of comedy for all it's worth...

1 hour ago, Newstar said:

Not only that, but why have romance when you can have lulz? Why have Jaime/Brienne when you can have Tormund waxing rhapsodic about the invincible babies he's going to have with Brienne?

1

Indeed, like aforementioned the union of Bran and Sam. <_<  

Given the show definitely intended Tommund's infatuation with Brienne as a joke, the fact that so many fans have taken such a liking to the "ship" where people are debating whether she should "end up" with him or Jaime shows how starved the audience is for some emotions. It doesn't surprise me that people still cling to Brienne/Jaime, or Arya/Gendry, or Bran/Meera, or the bloody joke-pairing Brienne/Tormund; the actors are very good at selling a connection and we'll take what we can get even though the showrunners only really want Tormund to make more creeper faces at Brienne.

1 hour ago, Newstar said:

Shipping Jaime/Brienne is just cruel at this point. Jaime's clearly doomed, why twist the knife with a love affair with no chance?

In the books, I would say the tragedy is how clearly doomed Jaime is and the hope is that he will manage to find some moment of clarity, peace or closure through his relationship with Brienne. In the show, they have mucked about with Jaime's storyline so much that all the real opportunities to play up what Brienne means to him on a symbolic level, not just a "I am weirdly attracted to someone who isn't my sister for the first time in my entire life" angle, were bypassed. Like that bit where they reunited at Riverun? It was all about the longing looks and not enough about why Brienne has that effect on Jaime. So, while I like it well enough (again, some emotional depth that goes beyond bromance is welcome), I cannot see the conclusion being as satisfying.

1 hour ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Even if you consider Sandor, Brienne or Gendry as only secondary characters you have to agree on the fact that Jaime, Sansa , and Arya are main ones. And all of them except Bri appeared since season 1. So then, is it set on stone that main characters can only have romances with other main ones? Because....who is left frot them btw?

 

3

I think it's more a case of... D&D probably felt obligated to have Jon and Daenerys because it was a bulletpoint GRRM left them with. It probably went along the lines of "J+D=H(ot)" and that's all. Given they needed to get the final act done in 13 episodes split across two seasons, they rushed it big time.

As for Jaime and Brienne, I would say Martin might have told them where Jaime's story was supposed to end up. However, both he and Brienne are MILES off their book plot, mainly because it is tied so far up in the LSH plot, which was dropped in the show. So, I'm willing to bet they have purposely extended the Bri+Jai plot so they could keep the "main character" for the show, Jaime, around. Either that or they realised they already dropped the LSH angle and had to repurpose and reroute them. As a result, the whole nature of their relationship has taken a hit in the show because Jaime was still tied up with Cersei so late in the game.

1 hour ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Again. Meera is not officially gone.

I'm almost scared for them to bring her back because I know they'll kill her off. Can't one character I like just... get away and live?

1 hour ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Jonerys, if people like them, fine. I think that it was horribly done and they have nothing in common. But hey, if you like them, you can ship them, and it is possibly doomed, but I won't say don't ship them.

Again, I think the problem is that GRRM probably told them Jon and Daenerys might well develop a romantic relationship in the books but he has well over 1000+ pages to set it all up and have it make sense. D&D, the "total boys" who aren't known for the "girlie romantic stuff", decided to just tell us they liked each other rather than show it. Half the reason people have jumped onto things like the Arya/Gendry ship, or the Bran/Meera ship, or any of the more subtle pairings you might like to choose is because their respective actors were able to convince us in much shorter scenes that there might be a spark.

Jaime and Brienne are admittedly different because it is lifted directly from the books and we know they are attracted to each other. They are both POV characters and we learn about their feelings for each other through their own eyes. (Compare to Arya's possible crush on Gendry, we only see it through her eyes or Bran's crush on Meera, we only see it through his eyes - both of whom are still children in the books, not young adults.) The issue with the BriJai relationship in the show, for me, is the aforementioned detachment from the book plot that has resulted in a major lack of direct for both characters. As lovely and pleasing their longing-looks are, keeping Jaime tethered to Cersei so long really killed it for me.

Edited by Faera

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25 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

I take it you mean Sandor and Sansa?
Sansa has never been unfriendly to Sandor, but she has never really been friendly or warm towards him either. She was clearly intimidated by him (can't blame her), but I never got the impression that there was any romantic spark between them, at least not from Sansa. Not surprising though since when they last met (Season 2?) she was a child and he was a grown, scary man.

Is it possible that they will develop a romantic relationship in S8? Yes, but I'd say it's very unlikely, and would probably creep a lot of people out.
I would also personally consider it a waste of screen time, since I'd rather the show spends time on established characters and their relationships than forcing forth a pretty unimportant romance between Sansa and Sandor. Unlike Jamie/Brienne and even Arya/Gendry, the show hasn't even (imo) laid a romantic foundation between Sansa and Sandor (no, simply knowing who the other person is not enough), so their relationship really have to start from scratch. Sansa is not the same person she was in S2 and neither is Sandor.

I think there is a lot more to suggest something borderline romantic in the books. 

Taking out the books and just looking at what was shown in Season 2, there ain't much there romantic wise. Frankly, would be pretty gross given the age difference between them. Rory McCann is 48 and Sophie Turner is 21. Back in season 2 he was 43 and she was 16. 

Just from that age difference I think the odds of SanSan happening in the show is super low. 

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3 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

I think there is a lot more to suggest something borderline romantic in the books. 

Taking out the books and just looking at what was shown in Season 2, there ain't much there romantic wise. Frankly, would be pretty gross given the age difference between them. Rory McCann is 48 and Sophie Turner is 21. Back in season 2 he was 43 and she was 16. 

Just from that age difference I think the odds of SanSan happening in the show is super low. 

well, the books are more romantic. That's true. But that applies to all the romances: J/B is alsomore romantic in the books, and Gendry/Arya as well.

As for the age gap, yes, there is, but he is playing a younger character.  And let's not forget Sansa was married to Tyrion played by Dinklage who is the same age as Rory McCann, and at that time Sophie was a teenager, (actually playing a 14 year-old girl) so I don't think there is any problem for season 8, especially now that both she and her character are adults and Sansa is portrayed as being very mature (season 7 ruling).

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17 minutes ago, Faera said:

 

I think it's more a case of... D&D probably felt obligated to have Jon and Daenerys because it was a bulletpoint GRRM left them with. It probably went along the lines of "J+D=H(ot)" and that's all. Given they needed to get the final act done in 13 episodes split across two seasons, they rushed it big time.

As for Jaime and Brienne, I would say Martin might have told them where Jaime's story was supposed to end up. However, both he and Brienne are MILES off their book plot, mainly because it is tied so far up in the LSH plot, which was dropped in the show. So, I'm willing to bet they have purposely extended the Bri+Jai plot so they could keep the "main character" for the show, Jaime, around. Either that or they realised they already dropped the LSH angle and had to repurpose and reroute them. As a result, the whole nature of their relationship has taken a hit in the show because Jaime was still tied up with Cersei so late in the game.

I'm almost scared for them to bring her back because I know they'll kill her off. Can't one character I like just... get away and live?

Again, I think the problem is that GRRM probably told them Jon and Daenerys might well develop a romantic relationship in the books but he has well over 1000+ pages to set it all up and have it make sense. D&D, the "total boys" who aren't known for the "girlie romantic stuff", decided to just tell us they liked each other rather than show it. Half the reason people have jumped onto things like the Arya/Gendry ship, or the Bran/Meera ship, or any of the more subtle pairings you might like to choose is because their respective actors were able to convince us in much shorter scenes that there might be a spark.

Jaime and Brienne are admittedly different because it is lifted directly from the books and we know they are attracted to each other. They are both POV characters and we learn about their feelings for each other through their own eyes. (Compare to Arya's possible crush on Gendry, we only see it through her eyes or Bran's crush on Meera, we only see it through his eyes - both of whom are still children in the books, not young adults.) The issue with the BriJai relationship in the show, for me, is the aforementioned detachment from the book plot that has resulted in a major lack of direct for both characters. As lovely and pleasing their longing-looks are, keeping Jaime tethered to Cersei so long really killed it for me.

As for Meera, I'm not scared since I think there won't be as many deaths as we think. I think she will arrive with Howland (Frikidoctor said that he knew that Martin confirmed that Howland would appear on s8, so maybe it's true). I don't know about Jonerys, really. I don't know if it would be a thing in the books or not, but they definitely wanted to do the "two main hot actors" hokkinp up thing. And certainly, they are not the best actors of the show, either. (Although, separately, or with other characters they have been good)

Jaime and Brienne is so powerful because we have both POVs, indeed and also because they are adults and I agree wth you in that not having info from the books for their arcs before the endgame has resulted in horrible storytelling (J/C).

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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