Meera of Tarth

[Book Spoilers] Jaime & Brienne- What's going on?

506 posts in this topic

5 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Yeah, I never go there beyond "something must happen" with these books. I think the sexual tension is building up to at least sex (loving sex, of course). Checkhov's "fucking instead of fighting" scene. :leer:

I don't think it HAS to be sex (not that I'd mind).  Sometimes I imagine an ending for them sort of like Crouching Tiger Hidden dragon, where the hero and heroine who've been in love almost their entire lives don't fully acknowledge it until he's dying in her arms.  Sure, it's melodramatic but it could work (IMO).  

The books have set up Jaime and Brienne setting off together in the riverlands.  While technically speaking this could set up an opportunity for physical intimacy I am just not convinced they are quite there yet.  They are both in various stages of denial about how they feel and on top of that Brienne has just told LSH and co that she'll find Jaime and kill him.  Presumably, she has agreed to bring either Jaime or proof he's dead in order to free Podrick.  Based somewhat on the shows events, im more convinced now that they will come away alive from this encounter, but without having resolved (rather built up more) the romantic tension.  

I seriously doubt Jaime dies with Cersei though - like I said in another post, I believe that he needs to meet up with Dany and Bran before he goes.  Which for Bran especially, means he has to at least Geographically separate himself from Cersei.  Therefore there should be plenty of opportunity for Brienne and Jaime to reunite as well. 

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2 hours ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

I don't think it HAS to be sex (not that I'd mind).  Sometimes I imagine an ending for them sort of like Crouching Tiger Hidden dragon, where the hero and heroine who've been in love almost their entire lives don't fully acknowledge it until he's dying in her arms.  Sure, it's melodramatic but it could work (IMO).  

Your outcome is a possible one. I have thought of it too.

However, I think there are good chances of sex and even that could mean a tragic event Jaime dying and Brienne expecting a child, an no more to be called The Maid of Tarth.

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The books have set up Jaime and Brienne setting off together in the riverlands.  While technically speaking this could set up an opportunity for physical intimacy I am just not convinced they are quite there yet.  They are both in various stages of denial about how they feel and on top of that Brienne has just told LSH and co that she'll find Jaime and kill him.  Presumably, she has agreed to bring either Jaime or proof he's dead in order to free Podrick.  Based somewhat on the shows events, im more convinced now that they will come away alive from this encounter, but without having resolved (rather built up more) the romantic tension.  

 

Well, I think than regarding Brienne she is not in denial with herself. Even when she is with LSH-BWB she doesn't deny anything IIRC. She must have realised that Jaime's face is the new one  that appears in her daydreams. Of course, we don't know how will she react with Jaime. They are not still prepared.

In the case for Jaime, he is more in "denial", but he has begun the process of acknowledging she cares for this girl more than he does for Cersei. In AsOs he was more in denial but now.....it's different. I think he hasn't questioned himself what is he feeling, but his acts demonstarte he has feelings for her.

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I seriously doubt Jaime dies with Cersei though - like I said in another post, I believe that he needs to meet up with Dany and Bran before he goes.  Which for Bran especially, means he has to at least Geographically separate himself from Cersei.  Therefore there should be plenty of opportunity for Brienne and Jaime to reunite as well. 

I don't know if we will be able to see Jaime with Dany or Bran, but I thinbk the latter meeting would provide a great degree of tension and could be interesting.

I definitely think Jaime won't die wit Cersei and if it does I would be extremely disappointed. I think Cersei will die before the major events.

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2 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Your outcome is a possible one. I have thought of it too.

However, I think there are good chances of sex and even that could mean a tragic event Jaime dying and Brienne expecting a child, an no more to be called The Maid of Tarth.

Well, I think than regarding Brienne she is not in denial with herself. Even when she is with LSH-BWB she doesn't deny anything IIRC. She must have realised that Jaime's face is the new one  that appears in her daydreams. Of course, we don't know how will she react with Jaime. They are not still prepared.

In the case for Jaime, he is more in "denial", but he has begun the process of acknowledging she cares for this girl more than he does for Cersei. In AsOs he was more in denial but now.....it's different. I think he hasn't questioned himself what is he feeling, but his acts demonstarte he has feelings for her.

I don't know if we will be able to see Jaime with Dany or Bran, but I thinbk the latter meeting would provide a great degree of tension and could be interesting.

I definitely think Jaime won't die wit Cersei and if it does I would be extremely disappointed. I think Cersei will die before the major events.

Great thread, I'm kind of arriving late, since I think this is the first time I've seen it, but I did just read your entire original post at the top and your most recent one.

I agree with a great deal of the discussion, and I'm not sure if this particular point has been discussed much in here already, but regarding Jaime's meeting with Edmure, I am completely convinced Jaime was bluffing Edmure, and it worked.

In a nutshell, Jaime starts out quite friendly, and I believe Jaime was trying to sweet talk Edmure into givng up Riverrun, but over and over again Edmure throws it back in Jaime's face, basically repeatedly telling Jaime words to the effect that  he believes Jaime is an evil monster, and it's obvious Edmure is completely close-minded and would reject anything that is not based in a belief that Jaime is an evil monster.

So Jaime switches tactics, becoming more and more harsh, and then finally Jaime gets his way by...giving Edmure something to believe based on the assumption that Jaime is an evil monster, by claiming to Edmure that he would do terrible things if Edmure won't play ball, including catapulting Edmure's kid into Riverrun, which I DO NOT believe Jaime EVER have really done, it was pure bluff..

Basically, it was psychological judo, as Jaime used Edmure's own strong belief that Jaime was an evil monster against him, and bluffed Edmure into giving up Riverrun without a fight.  Indeed, the Blackfish was RIGHT when he said that Edmure's return was a "trick," and that if they let Edmure in they would be taking orders from the Kingslayer, ironically enough

This scene, in my view, was one of Jaime's finest moments in the entire series, as he also kept his word to Cat and Brienne, by not making war against Starks or Tullys, AND took Riverrun without bloodshed, as Brienne had implored him to do.

I think it's also noteworthy that this was all set up when Jaime first arrived at Riverrun, slapped that Frey in the face, and publicly proclaimed that they should not make bluffs they are not willing to carry out, or something like that.   I'm assuming Edmure heard that, and was pre-conditioned to believe Jaime Lannister DOESN'T bluff.

Almost incidentally, I believe Jaime sincerely did not want the Blackfish harmed, but then, of course, the Blackfish was killed b/c of circumstances outside Jaime's immediate control, at least so far as we know, meaning, "assuming the Blackfish is really dead."

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2 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Your outcome is a possible one. I have thought of it too.

However, I think there are good chances of sex and even that could mean a tragic event Jaime dying and Brienne expecting a child, an no more to be called The Maid of Tarth.

 I never got into the Brienne having a child idea, I don't think she really wants one.

But I think sex is definitely in the cards. Both Beauty and the Beast stories, J/B and SanSan, are very sexy stories, they are steeped in this. The sexy layers have layers. All the daggers and swords and hills and hollows and red blossoms and bloody cloaks. J/B had a mud wrestling scene! :lol: So many sexual hints, over and over and over again.

To do all that and then end chaste... nah. That would not only be a letdown for what he's built up, but it would be quite boring, too. No one watches a show like this for chaste letdowns. This is a very sexy saga, and he has no qualms about going there, a lot. And an author doesn't hang a "fucking instead of fighting" scene on the wall and not go there. And there's so much more.

2 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Well, I think than regarding Brienne she is not in denial with herself. Even when she is with LSH-BWB she doesn't deny anything IIRC. She must have realised that Jaime's face is the new one  that appears in her daydreams. Of course, we don't know how will she react with Jaime. They are not still prepared.

In the case for Jaime, he is more in "denial", but he has begun the process of acknowledging she cares for this girl more than he does for Cersei. In AsOs he was more in denial but now.....it's different. I think he hasn't questioned himself what is he feeling, but his acts demonstarte he has feelings for her.

Books, I think they are not in denial anymore. I think they are ready. Show, they keep using him as a prop, so I suspect whenever they get done with that, he will be instantly ready. There's no time to hem and haw, they will get right to it. And this next is the penultimate book, all these things he's been building to, this is what it call comes down to. Not much time left to dilly dally.

2 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I don't know if we will be able to see Jaime with Dany or Bran, but I thinbk the latter meeting would provide a great degree of tension and could be interesting.

I definitely think Jaime won't die wit Cersei and if it does I would be extremely disappointed. I think Cersei will die before the major events.

I think they will resolve his story with Cersei at least to a certain point, and bring Brienne back into the mix somehow. Probably send him her way, or him his way. We saw that with Sandor, too, they brought him back and wham bam, sent him north. I can't really picture Jaime up north, so I suspect Brienne will go to him. And his dream seems to hint when he's alone, she will be there.

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19 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I think that not making Jaime's and Brienne's destiny together at least for acknowledging their feelings  would be extremely frustrating. In the books their POVs now are mainly about thinking of eachother. As time passes, the more they realise they are in love. And in the show they made "the move" with Bronn's words. 

I think it's plausible to see Jaime dying and Brienne survivinh him as a possible outcome. But something must happen. 

Yeah, that would be frustrating indeed.

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2 hours ago, Cron said:

Great thread, I'm kind of arriving late, since I think this is the first time I've seen it, but I did just read your entire original post at the top and your most recent one.

I agree with a great deal of the discussion, and I'm not sure if this particular point has been discussed much in here already, but regarding Jaime's meeting with Edmure, I am completely convinced Jaime was bluffing Edmure, and it worked.

In a nutshell, Jaime starts out quite friendly, and I believe Jaime was trying to sweet talk Edmure into givng up Riverrun, but over and over again Edmure throws it back in Jaime's face, basically repeatedly telling Jaime words to the effect that  he believes Jaime is an evil monster, and it's obvious Edmure is completely close-minded and would reject anything that is not based in a belief that Jaime is an evil monster.

So Jaime switches tactics, becoming more and more harsh, and then finally Jaime gets his way by...giving Edmure something to believe based on the assumption that Jaime is an evil monster, by claiming to Edmure that he would do terrible things if Edmure won't play ball, including catapulting Edmure's kid into Riverrun, which I DO NOT believe Jaime EVER have really done, it was pure bluff..

Basically, it was psychological judo, as Jaime used Edmure's own strong belief that Jaime was an evil monster against him, and bluffed Edmure into giving up Riverrun without a fight.  Indeed, the Blackfish was RIGHT when he said that Edmure's return was a "trick," and that if they let Edmure in they would be taking orders from the Kingslayer, ironically enough

Thanks! Don't worry, great to see people contributing with their ideas :)

Yes, I agree with you with Jaime and Edmure. In the books the tone is similar. I believe he didn't believe many of the things he said but thought it would be effective. 

What I found a bit disappointing was that he proclaimed he loved Cersei a lot, and I believed him there. However, given the fact that in the show they still were together, although every episode more separated, I don't want to pay a lot of attention to it.

It's true that they underestimated The Blackfish.

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This scene, in my view, was one of Jaime's finest moments in the entire series, as he also kept his word to Cat and Brienne, by not making war against Starks or Tullys, AND took Riverrun without bloodshed, as Brienne had implored him to do.

I think it's also noteworthy that this was all set up when Jaime first arrived at Riverrun, slapped that Frey in the face, and publicly proclaimed that they should not make bluffs they are not willing to carry out, or something like that.   I'm assuming Edmure heard that, and was pre-conditioned to believe Jaime Lannister DOESN'T bluff.

 

That was something I liked too. I also liked this encounter with The Blackfish. Those moments made me believe that there was some hope in Jaime's story in the show. NCW is a great actor and he plays book Jaime incredibly well when he has the occasion.

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Almost incidentally, I believe Jaime sincerely did not want the Blackfish harmed, but then, of course, the Blackfish was killed b/c of circumstances outside Jaime's immediate control, at least so far as we know, meaning, "assuming the Blackfish is really dead."

Yes, totally agree. He has reached a point in his life when his priorities have changed. In the books it is more clear, but In the show, with the death of Myrcella I also think it has had an impact to consider.

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2 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

 I never got into the Brienne having a child idea, I don't think she really wants one.

But I think sex is definitely in the cards. Both Beauty and the Beast stories, J/B and SanSan, are very sexy stories, they are steeped in this. The sexy layers have layers. All the daggers and swords and hills and hollows and red blossoms and bloody cloaks. J/B had a mud wrestling scene! :lol: So many sexual hints, over and over and over again.

To do all that and then end chaste... nah. That would not only be a letdown for what he's built up, but it would be quite boring, too. No one watches a show like this for chaste letdowns. This is a very sexy saga, and he has no qualms about going there, a lot. And an author doesn't hang a "fucking instead of fighting" scene on the wall and not go there. And there's so much more.

I agree. The scene in which they fight with the swords (that the show included) is very sexy and not only this one, but there are also many more!

When Brienne sees Jaime in her daydreams, replacing Renly's face, when Jaime dreams of her, when Jaime slaps people because they are insulting Brienne when he is in The Riverlands....

 

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Books, I think they are not in denial anymore. I think they are ready. Show, they keep using him as a prop, so I suspect whenever they get done with that, he will be instantly ready. There's no time to hem and haw, they will get right to it. And this next is the penultimate book, all these things he's been building to, this is what it call comes down to. Not much time left to dilly dally.

 

I think that if they survive LSH something might happen and they will be ready, but at this point, before meeting LSH not.

Regarding the books, I agree about not being in denial, especially in Brienne's case. And Jaime is not in denial, but maybe he has to see/travel with her again some days to fully realise not only that it's her that she wants (I think he knows that) but that he wants to make it real. For me, it's a matter of a short period of time.

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I think they will resolve his story with Cersei at least to a certain point, and bring Brienne back into the mix somehow. Probably send him her way, or him his way. We saw that with Sandor, too, they brought him back and wham bam, sent him north. I can't really picture Jaime up north, so I suspect Brienne will go to him. And his dream seems to hint when he's alone, she will be there.

Yes, in the show they already know they are in love. We don't know what they are thinking, but the actors portray it quite well. Brienne looking him from the hill, Jaime's face when he sees Brienne, totally different to the one he has when he is with Cersei! He is another person, relaxed.

Their last scene together was so telling. However, in the show there is the problem of Cersei. I hope they don't spend much time with that, but the last scene gave me a lot of hope. I think that they will adapt the argument that Jaime and Cersei have in the books before going to the Riverlands but probably even bigger. And now, after what she has done, it will be definitive. I really hope they send him Brienne's way.

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17 minutes ago, Elisabetta Duò said:

Yeah, that would be frustrating indeed.

I'm positive. They have told the story very well in s2 , s3 and s4. In s5 they put The Tarth scene and now in S6 they met again. There must be a reason for that.

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2 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I'm positive. They have told the story very well in s2 , s3 and s4. In s5 they put The Tarth scene and now in S6 they met again. There must be a reason for that.

Yeah, they deliberately set this up for a reason, there will be follow up. We are not meant to just disregard prior scenes that tell their story, just because it was a while ago. The separation period is part of the story.

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3 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Yeah, they deliberately set this up for a reason, there will be follow up. We are not meant to just disregard prior scenes that tell their story, just because it was a while ago. The separation period is part of the story.

Exactly. They didn't do the separation period as I'd have liked it to be, but considering they were insisting on twincest and we don't have their POVs, I can accept that they have delayed the relationship until now. At least now it has almost arrived.

And they put a hint in every season!

Tarth gaze was wonderful:

http://45.media.tumblr.com/4cdadd0baffd2cad2f1ad954cf3b0d1a/tumblr_nntzev5KIZ1qjrftro2_250.gif

 

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3 hours ago, Cron said:

Great thread, I'm kind of arriving late, since I think this is the first time I've seen it, but I did just read your entire original post at the top and your most recent one.

I agree with a great deal of the discussion, and I'm not sure if this particular point has been discussed much in here already, but regarding Jaime's meeting with Edmure, I am completely convinced Jaime was bluffing Edmure, and it worked.

In a nutshell, Jaime starts out quite friendly, and I believe Jaime was trying to sweet talk Edmure into givng up Riverrun, but over and over again Edmure throws it back in Jaime's face, basically repeatedly telling Jaime words to the effect that  he believes Jaime is an evil monster, and it's obvious Edmure is completely close-minded and would reject anything that is not based in a belief that Jaime is an evil monster.

So Jaime switches tactics, becoming more and more harsh, and then finally Jaime gets his way by...giving Edmure something to believe based on the assumption that Jaime is an evil monster, by claiming to Edmure that he would do terrible things if Edmure won't play ball, including catapulting Edmure's kid into Riverrun, which I DO NOT believe Jaime EVER have really done, it was pure bluff..

Basically, it was psychological judo, as Jaime used Edmure's own strong belief that Jaime was an evil monster against him, and bluffed Edmure into giving up Riverrun without a fight.  Indeed, the Blackfish was RIGHT when he said that Edmure's return was a "trick," and that if they let Edmure in they would be taking orders from the Kingslayer, ironically enough

This scene, in my view, was one of Jaime's finest moments in the entire series, as he also kept his word to Cat and Brienne, by not making war against Starks or Tullys, AND took Riverrun without bloodshed, as Brienne had implored him to do.

I think it's also noteworthy that this was all set up when Jaime first arrived at Riverrun, slapped that Frey in the face, and publicly proclaimed that they should not make bluffs they are not willing to carry out, or something like that.   I'm assuming Edmure heard that, and was pre-conditioned to believe Jaime Lannister DOESN'T bluff.

Almost incidentally, I believe Jaime sincerely did not want the Blackfish harmed, but then, of course, the Blackfish was killed b/c of circumstances outside Jaime's immediate control, at least so far as we know, meaning, "assuming the Blackfish is really dead."

Great post Cron, I agree completely.

Seriously though, it seemed extremely obvious to me that Jaime only went "Kingslayer" on Edmure because he felt he had no other way to get what he wanted, which specifically was not to have to fight Brienne to the death!  

Literally the last scene before this was

Brienne: "if you fight the Blackfish I have to defend him and that means fighting you"  

Jaime: "lets hope it doesn't come to that"

*long smouldering stare*

I mean could they make it more obvious what motivated him?  Apparently they should have, because of all the people complaining that Jaime "turned evvvillll" in that situation.  No!  He's playing the Kingslayer because he wants a peaceful resolution specifically in order to give Brienne a chance to survive.  Edmure believes Jaime's a monster - well he's only going to comply if Jaime shows him that face.  Otherwise he won't take Jaime seriously.  

I think that even the part where he says he loves Cersei and he'll kill every Tully to get back to her is in great part BS.  In show-verse, everyone believes that Jaime is Cersei's pawn and little more than that, and everyone even seems to know about the incest.   So, Jaime is playing the Kingslayer again by claiming this about Cersei.  And of course he wouldn't kill every Tully for Cersei - as you say it's proven by his reaction to the LEAD Tully's death.  Does he love Cersei?  Yes, he does, but ti's not the same as it was, clearly.  This season he is trying to help her recover from a horrible loss.  And she has been good to him all season (Book Cersei by this point was calling him names and humiliating him in every interaction - she didn't even once this season).  And to protect their last remaining child.  It would be cowardly if he were to abandon Cersei at this time, and it would be unrealistic if he didn't still love her to some extent (though we know now that he also is definitely falling for Brienne).    

Meanwhile, Jaime proved many times this season and in previous ones that it is not really the case that he's some slave of Cersei - even here, he goes against her express wishes by pursuing a peaceful resolution at Riverrun (she wanted him to slaughter their enemies).  So, we know with total certainty that this part was a Bluff.  While we can't be sure that he wouldn't catapult Edmure's kid, that's the same in the book and debated there as well.  

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3 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

 I never got into the Brienne having a child idea, I don't think she really wants one.

But I think sex is definitely in the cards. Both Beauty and the Beast stories, J/B and SanSan, are very sexy stories, they are steeped in this. The sexy layers have layers. All the daggers and swords and hills and hollows and red blossoms and bloody cloaks. J/B had a mud wrestling scene! :lol: So many sexual hints, over and over and over again.

You are really, really into these penis metaphors...  O_o

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To do all that and then end chaste... nah. That would not only be a letdown for what he's built up, but it would be quite boring, too. No one watches a show like this for chaste letdowns. This is a very sexy saga, and he has no qualms about going there, a lot. And an author doesn't hang a "fucking instead of fighting" scene on the wall and not go there. And there's so much more.

This isn't fan-fiction, it's meant to be realistic.  Sometimes, people die before their feelings can be resolved, or they never meet again.  Or they have unrequited feelings their entire lives because there are some things that keep them apart.  Not everyone in this series that could have sex does have sex and that is OK, because that's how life goes sometimes.  Sometimes, there are missed opportunities.  Sometimes we are too stupid or stubborn or willfully blind.  Or afraid.  It happens.  

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Books, I think they are not in denial anymore. I think they are ready. Show, they keep using him as a prop, so I suspect whenever they get done with that, he will be instantly ready. 

I'm not sure what you mean by the "prop" thing.  Jaime's actions made perfect sense to me all season long - and were even more honorable and heroic than in the book - but only if you forget what you "wanted to happen" based on the book material.  

It's quite clear - based on the acting - that Jaime is deep, complex, and romantic feelings for Brienne in the show.  To be honest it's more clear there than in the books - there it is possible to interpret his feelings and actions as "deep admiration" if one was so inclined.  Though his change in demeanor during their reunion is quite similar and striking in both forms, we don't get any "smoking gun" IMO - though I personally believe he loves her in the books as well, but is clueless about it.  It seems like for Show Jaime (based on NCW interview), he realizes he is falling for her and finds that to be quite inconvenient due to the circumstances... :P 

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I think they will resolve his story with Cersei at least to a certain point, and bring Brienne back into the mix somehow. Probably send him her way, or him his way. We saw that with Sandor, too, they brought him back and wham bam, sent him north. I can't really picture Jaime up north, so I suspect Brienne will go to him. And his dream seems to hint when he's alone, she will be there.

There are some good arguments for Jaime going north in either Season 7 or Season 8.  It has to do with fulfilling his promise to Catelyn, which he tasked Brienne with.  

It's conceivable that Jaime will break with Cersei very quickly on in season 7.  Especially if she decides to ally with Euron Greyjoy and there's some sort of jealousy plot (though I kind of hope they don't go there).  In any case, if this happens, Jaime may consider his duty now is to his promise to Catelyn (and... there's the additional benefit of catching up to the woman he now realizes he loves).  He may abandon Cersei completely, and take some of the Lannister army with him, or just go alone.  

Assuming that Season 7 resolves with Cersei dying and Jaime killing her (but not dying), he may at that point have allied himself with Tyrion and Daenerys.  Perhaps everyone hears about the WW threat.  Jaime would want to go North simply because of the fact that Brienne is there, and will soon be fighting for her life to protect Sansa from the WW. 

There's also Arya, with regard to Catelyn's promise - will Jaime try to get Arya to her family, as Catelyn wished?  

I suppose it's also possible that the WW will come south of the neck, forcing the Starks and everyone associated with them to retreat south, rather than those in the South coming north.  It could go either way I suppose. 

Edited by A spoon of knife and fork

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Do you ever discuss stories without getting personal about it? I won't ask you if you are "really, really into penis metaphors" because I'm here to talk about the story.

GRRM uses sexual symbolism a lot. In the case of Jaime and Brienne, he uses it extensively, throughout the story, and indeed, much of the story is there. It's a Beauty and the Beast story, and desire is a central motivation of the characters.

Here's the Far From the Madding Crowd director describing the Hollow in the Ferns (the hollow, the ferns, that's classic female sexual symbolism) scene. Sexual symbolism is often used in literature to represent desire and foreshadow sex between characters.

The show uses sexual symbolism in a different way, they are much more direct, but they go there. I think both show and books are hinting so heavily for something sexual for Jaime and Brienne, that there's more to come along these lines.

Sex is actually pretty common in ASOIAF.  Two characters who want to have sex will usually "realistically" have sex more often than not. When GRRM gave Dany and Daario all that sexual buildup, they had sex. It would have been rather surprising if they didn't.

The scene I mentioned is a symbolic sex scene. The swords kissing, moving into her, faster faster faster... This is all very suggestive of what's going on between them, mutual desire, beneath the surface. That's what BatB is about. These are hints for readers/viewers, to convey this.

The red flower blossoming hints at virgin consummation (like the bloody cloak with Sansa and Sandor, the two BatB pairings have similar scenes). Brienne sits astride Jaime, and he goes for the dagger. That last bit with him submerged is very suggestive, too.

After all of this, he's looking at this woman, and thinks she looks like they've been fucking instead of fighting. And he calls her his wife. None of this was unintentional, indeed, this is an important scene for them. This is to put in the mind of the reader, these two may have sex one day.

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The swords kissed and sprang apart and kissed again. Jaime’s blood was singing...

High, low, overhand, he rained down steel upon her. Left, right, backslash, swinging so hard that sparks flew when the swords came together, upswing, sideslash, overhand, always attacking, moving into her, step and slide, strike and step, step and strike, hacking, slashing, faster, faster, faster …

… until, breathless, he stepped back and let the point of the sword fall to the ground, giving her a moment of respite. "Not half bad," he acknowledged. "For a wench."...

The dance went on. He pinned her against an oak, cursed as she slipped away, followed her through a shallow brook half-choked with fallen leaves... He laughed a ragged, breathless laugh. "Come on, come on, my sweetling, the music's still playing. Might I have this dance, my lady?"...

Instead she forced him back into the brook again, shouting, "Yield! Throw down the sword!"

A slick stone turned under Jaime's foot. As he felt himself falling, he twisted the mischance into a diving lunge. His point scraped past her parry and bit into her upper thigh. A red flower blossomed, and Jaime had an instant to savor the sight of her blood before his knee slammed into a rock. The pain was blinding. Brienne splashed into him and kicked away his sword. "YIELD!"

Jaime drove his shoulder into her legs, bringing her down on top of him. They rolled, kicking and punching until finally she was sitting astride him. He managed to jerk her dagger from its sheath, but before he could plunge it into her belly she caught his wrist and slammed his hands back on a rock so hard he thought she'd wrenched an arm from its socket. Her other hand spread across his face. "Yield!"

She shoved his head down, held it under, pulled it up. "Yield!" Jaime spit water into her face. A shove, a splash, and he was under again, kicking uselessly, fighting to breathe. Up again. "Yield, or I'll drown you!"

"And break your oath?" he snarled. "Like me?"

She let him go, and he went down with a splash...

She looks as if they caught us fucking instead of fighting.

 

Edited by Le Cygne

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3 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Exactly. They didn't do the separation period as I'd have liked it to be, but considering they were insisting on twincest and we don't have their POVs, I can accept that they have delayed the relationship until now. At least now it has almost arrived.

And they put a hint in every season!

Tarth gaze was wonderful:

http://45.media.tumblr.com/4cdadd0baffd2cad2f1ad954cf3b0d1a/tumblr_nntzev5KIZ1qjrftro2_250.gif

Yeah, they set them back quite a bit. They don't do separation periods well, they try with lots of little hints, but twincest expired ages ago, or should have. And yes, he did a great job with that scene. :)

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@Le Cygne You pitched so many detailes that I missed and now I'm so convinced that if J/B or SanSan won't happen I would be devastated. And it would be partly your fault (along with GRRM and D&D) giving me false hopes:D

I think in the show Jaime and Brienne will be separated for a while. Probably Brienne will take Gendry's path and disappear for a some time. Jaime has enough to do in KL. His break up with Cersei if it happenes (and I think it will) won"t happen in a moment it would be painful and slow because they were unseparatable all their lives. I'm almost sure they won't be left hanging but their encounter could be short and tragic, like was already mentioned Jaime dying in Brienne's arms. It"s really interesting how many people suppose that Jaime would die first, not Brienne.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Do you ever discuss stories without getting personal about it? I won't ask you if you are "really, really into penis metaphors" because I'm here to talk about the story.

GRRM uses sexual symbolism a lot. In the case of Jaime and Brienne, he uses it extensively, throughout the story, and indeed, much of the story there. It's a Beauty and the Beast story, and desire is a central motivation of the characters.

Here's the Far From the Madding Crowd director describing the Hollow in the Ferns (classic female sexual symbolism) scene. Sexual symbolism often used in literature to represent desire and foreshadow sex between characters:

The show uses sexual symbolism in a different way, they are much more direct, but they go there. I think both show and books are hinting so heavily for something sexual for Jaime and Brienne, there's more to come.

This is a great example of symbolism!

And I'm glad you picked up the excerpt from the books, when you realise it, it is even more interesting to read:

Quote

The dance went on. He pinned her against an oak, cursed as she slipped away, followed her through a shallow brook half-choked with fallen leaves... He laughed a ragged, breathless laugh. "Come on, come on, my sweetling, the music's still playing. Might I have this dance, my lady?"...

...

 

And then there is also this:

Quote
Brienne lurched to her feet. She was all mud and blood below the waist, her clothing askew, her face red. She looks as if they caught us fucking instead of fighting. Jaime crawled over the rocks to shallow water, wiping the blood from his eye with his chained hands. Armed men lined both sides of the brook. Small wonder, we were making enough noise to wake a dragon. "Well met, friends," he called to them amiably. "My pardons if I disturbed you. You caught mechastising my wife."
"Seemed to me she was doing the chastising.

They are very direct. They actually say the words "fucking" like Bronn did, the references about Brienne's red face....

And finally, Jaime says he was "chastising" his wife. He calls her "wife". Wouldn't it be ironic if they married?

But the best part is that they were equal, and that stranger says she actually was "in power".

Maybe she has the power to change Jaime (as she did)?

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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1 hour ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

@Le Cygne You pitched so many detailes that I missed and now I'm so convinced that if J/B or SanSan won't happen I would be devastated. And it would be partly your fault (along with GRRM and D&D) giving me false hopes:D

I think in the show Jaime and Brienne will be separated for a while. Probably Brienne will take Gendry's path and disappear for a some time. Jaime has enough to do in KL. His break up with Cersei if it happenes (and I think it will) won"t happen in a moment it would be painful and slow because they were unseparatable all their lives. I'm almost sure they won't be left hanging but their encounter could be short and tragic, like was already mentioned Jaime dying in Brienne's arms.

 

 

It's plausible they will still be separated for a short period of time, maybe 4+ episodes, and then is when he will break with Cersei.

However, I think that they might meet again before anything tragic happens, (if tragedy has to happen) because the relationship have to be even more close again. 

Quote

It"s really interesting how many people suppose that Jaime would die first, not Brienne.

Yes, I don't know! Maybe because I like Brienne a lot....no, I don't know really.....could that dialogue of the show be foreshadowing of Jaime's death in Brienne's arms?

I definitely don't think and don't want so see him dying with Cersei.

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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more news from Natalie Dormer on Cersei+Jaime:

Quote

Finally, Dormer revealed who’s on Margaery’s hit list for Game of Thrones Season 7.

My gosh, well, obviously, Cersei took so many of us out in the last episode and she’s really turned dark; even Jaime Lannister can see that, so I don’t think that Cersei Lannister is long for her Westeros world.

http://winteriscoming.net/2016/08/25/natalie-dormer-margaery-tyrell-wont-miss-game-thrones/

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4 hours ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

 

Seriously though, it seemed extremely obvious to me that Jaime only went "Kingslayer" on Edmure because he felt he had no other way to get what he wanted, which specifically was not to have to fight Brienne to the death!  

Literally the last scene before this was

Brienne: "if you fight the Blackfish I have to defend him and that means fighting you"  

Jaime: "lets hope it doesn't come to that"

*long smouldering stare*

I mean could they make it more obvious what motivated him?  Apparently they should have, because of all the people complaining that Jaime "turned evvvillll" in that situation.  No!  He's playing the Kingslayer because he wants a peaceful resolution specifically in order to give Brienne a chance to survive.  Edmure believes Jaime's a monster - well he's only going to comply if Jaime shows him that face.  Otherwise he won't take Jaime seriously.  

 

I hadn't seen the scene this way but it is interesting to view it like this after the season has finished. As I mentioned in the first posts of this thread, when Jaime is with Brienne, he changes. He's very different from KG's Jaime. He is a totally different person.

So it would be nice if he did this just to avoid fighting in a war against his real love.(although I don't like the Cersei part).

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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3 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Do you ever discuss stories without getting personal about it? I won't ask you if you are "really, really into penis metaphors" because I'm here to talk about the story.

If a poster managed to bring up, let's say, Stannis in every post, pointing that out isn't a personal attack.

But If it bothers you for me to point it out I will refrain from this point forward.

Quote

GRRM uses sexual symbolism a lot. In the case of Jaime and Brienne, he uses it extensively, throughout the story, and indeed, much of the story is there. It's a Beauty and the Beast story, and desire is a central motivation of the characters.

Here's the Far From the Madding Crowd director describing the Hollow in the Ferns (the hollow, the ferns, that's classic female sexual symbolism) scene. Sexual symbolism is often used in literature to represent desire and foreshadow sex between characters.

The show uses sexual symbolism in a different way, they are much more direct, but they go there. I think both show and books are hinting so heavily for something sexual for Jaime and Brienne, that there's more to come along these lines.

In my view, for every 10 times it would be plausible to think of something as sexual symbolism or whatever type of symbolism, only 1 of those instances were intended to be so by the authors.  I'm not confident we can be sure which in any given circumstance. 

Quote

Sex is actually pretty common in ASOIAF.  Two characters who want to have sex will usually "realistically" have sex more often than not. When GRRM gave Dany and Daario all that sexual buildup, they had sex. It would have been rather surprising if they didn't.

Depends on your point of view.  I'm sure many people who like pairings that you don't like could make the same arguments you are making about their personal favorite pair.  Many could (and do often) find similar symbols for say Arya and Jon.  Doesn't mean they will have sex.  

Anyway for Jaime and Brienne it depends a lot on the situation in the future.  I think personally it would be quite satisfying either way - as long as - like Meera of Tarth said "something" happens.  It could even just be a conversation - if it's heartfelt enough. 

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The scene I mentioned is a symbolic sex scene. The swords kissing, moving into her, faster faster faster... This is all very suggestive of what's going on between them, mutual desire, beneath the surface. That's what BatB is about. These are hints for readers/viewers, to convey this.

i personally agree that scene has sexual tension, and also that it is symbolic of sex.  However I don't think you can be so sure it is foreshadowing.  Symbolically sex already has happened.  Doesn't mean non-symbolic sex will happen In the future.  These are two different considerations.  

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The red flower blossoming hints at virgin consummation (like the bloody cloak with Sansa and Sandor, the two BatB pairings have similar scenes). Brienne sits astride Jaime, and he goes for the dagger. That last bit with him submerged is very suggestive, too.

It's a suggestive scene.  Quite sexual

But I think that's reaching. dagger = penis is a stretch.  It's not even that bloody a thing to lose your virginity for many women.  

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After all of this, he's looking at this woman, and thinks she looks like they've been fucking instead of fighting. And he calls her his wife.

Does that mean you believe for certain they will get married? 

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None of this was unintentional, indeed, this is an important scene for them.

And did I ever say it was unimportant or unintentional?  It was an extremely important encounter for both of them.  It was the start of a pattern of building romantic and sexual tension between them.  Of mutual admiration as well.  

Quote

This is to put in the mind of the reader, these two may have sex one day.

This is where we differ.  I find this idea that the purpose of the scene is foreshadowing to be too simplistic a reading. There's more to this scene than this.  if sex never happens between them, this scene is still important.  

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