[Book Spoilers] Jaime & Brienne- What's going on?

[A spoon of knife and fork]

12 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

As I said, I don't want to go off-topic but...the one that comes to my mind is when they are in The Small Council, for instance. 

I don't think it's so off topic, Since Jaime and Cersei and their relationship are tied closely to what can happen with Brienne.  

Ok so that's in the scene Cersei is basically like "hey we should team up again or whatever".  And Jaime's generally supportive of that (I forget if he has any lines in that scene) whereas Kevan and Olenna are like "thanks but no thanks Lannister Scum", right?

I think we have to think about what Jaime knows here. Also what Kevan and Olenna don't know.  He knows that Cersei F'd up, and he knows that the Tyrells are in the same boat Cersei was.  He might not know that it's Cersei's fault Margaery and Loras are in the clutches of the HS.  Obviously Kevan and Olenna THINK he knows this which is why they are equally disdainful towards him.  Show!Jaime believes that Cersei regrets what she did, and wants to make amends with the Tyrells.  He'd be a complete dick if he turned on Cersei in that room - she's doing exactly what we would expect her to do if she is sincere in her regret.  Meanwhile Kevan and Olenna didn't see Cersei after Myrcella came home - they don't see her quite genuine sorrow like Jaime did.  To them this seems like just more of Cersei's games (which it is).  

12 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Yes, I know the break-up won't happen in the first episode but I'll have patience because JB will happen, and the waiting will have been worth it (I hope)

In fact, Cersei and Jaime need to talk about what has happened. I'm sure both actors will do a great job. It's a moment I've been waiting for since I read Feast after s4.

I suspect Jaime will be angry but Cersei will no longer give a crap about what Jaime thinks of her.  She will be more similar to the book version next season, IMO, disdainful and belittling towards him.  But, we'll see!  It will be interesting for sure...  

12 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I've only started 2 threads and none of them are rant threads. One is this and the other was about the connections between Smallville and Game of Thrones. They are on my profile.

Oops, I didn't mean to imply that you had started rant threads.  I meant please don't start a thread like the one you linked (though I'm SURE someone will start such a thread about how D&D ruined Jaime unless he literally murders Cersei in ep 1).  Sorry for the misunderstanding.  

[Elisabetta Duò]

Well to me Jamie/Brienne and SanSan are quite different things for many reasons (intent of the Author, character development, influence of the characters on each other, outcome and others), but I don't wanna go into it (I'm not willing to start an off topic discussion about it... first because it's off topic - I mention it because somehow SanSan has been mentioned in this Jamie Brienne topic - and second, for personal reasons). Just pointing out that 'to everyone their own opinions' but it's not a similitude everyone agrees on (except for the obvious beauty/beast nod).

[Meera of Tarth]

 

On 28/8/2016 at 10:15 PM, A spoon of knife and fork said:

I don't think it's so off topic, Since Jaime and Cersei and their relationship are tied closely to what can happen with Brienne.  

Ok so that's in the scene Cersei is basically like "hey we should team up again or whatever".  And Jaime's generally supportive of that (I forget if he has any lines in that scene) whereas Kevan and Olenna are like "thanks but no thanks Lannister Scum", right?

I think we have to think about what Jaime knows here. Also what Kevan and Olenna don't know.  He knows that Cersei F'd up, and he knows that the Tyrells are in the same boat Cersei was.  He might not know that it's Cersei's fault Margaery and Loras are in the clutches of the HS.  Obviously Kevan and Olenna THINK he knows this which is why they are equally disdainful towards him.  Show!Jaime believes that Cersei regrets what she did, and wants to make amends with the Tyrells.  He'd be a complete dick if he turned on Cersei in that room - she's doing exactly what we would expect her to do if she is sincere in her regret.  Meanwhile Kevan and Olenna didn't see Cersei after Myrcella came home - they don't see her quite genuine sorrow like Jaime did.  To them this seems like just more of Cersei's games (which it is).  

I suspect Jaime will be angry but Cersei will no longer give a crap about what Jaime thinks of her.  She will be more similar to the book version next season, IMO, disdainful and belittling towards him.  But, we'll see!  It will be interesting for sure...  

Oops, I didn't mean to imply that you had started rant threads.  I meant please don't start a thread like the one you linked (though I'm SURE someone will start such a thread about how D&D ruined Jaime unless he literally murders Cersei in ep 1).  Sorry for the misunderstanding.  

We already talked about that in this thread, but I'll point out again why I think of Cersei and Jaime's relationship and the effect it has on him.

Jaime is involved in an unhealthy relationship. Since S5 the level of disfunctionality of their relationship is so high. Cersei has commanded him to go to missions: I believe that means to her "I Don't need you to stay with me. You are a soldier". If Cersei truly loved him, she would have wanted him to stay with her, but she doesn't. She doesn't love anyone except her children. She might have loved or felt something for Jaime but after he returned in S4 the relationship has not been the same (except maybe for the finale of S4). Jaime, on the other hand, tries to do his best for her, unconditionally. And it's that unconditional level of blindness what I am referring to in regards to the term "puppet".

As you mentioned, in that scene Jaime tries to make the Small Coundil realise that they have to deal with The Murder of Myrcella, but his tone and his way of acting, not very diplomatic (putting the chair in that way there) is a reflection of that Jaime is doing it this way just to make Cersei happy all the time, without taking into consideration that she doesn't care about him at all. There are some glimpses of GoodJaime during the season, when he wants to rescue Cersei's enemy Margaery (of course thinking that HS are completely evil while Cersei is good) and then, when he goes away to Riverrun, and Cersei is not there anymore to influence him, but Brienne is, interestingly.

And what you said about that Jaime believes that Cersei regrets what she did supports my argument about him being "her puppet, her soldier". Of course there is the possibility that she has offered him a convincing speech agains the HS, or that she has cried during hours offscreen so as to make him pardon her for her sin of being with Lancel and he accepted (which I think it's plausible), but it's the fact that in the show we are not shown these scenes that makes me suspicious that it is not the case and that Jaime is just completely oblivious of what is going on.

NormalJaime would have investigated a little bit more. Talked to her. He should know that there is likely some truth in the HS's charges, given he is a KingsGuard, an intelligent person-no matter he loves Cersei. And the subsequent scenes in which she says to him "Go away, I just have The Mountain" and he feels not only sad but extremely nervous and surprised, makes me think that she didn't have to convince Jaime of those things, but that, in fact, he is acting like a puppet, terrified by what his "master" is saying, and at the same time not complaining at all. This is the result of previous brainwashing. A normal person wouldn't have reacted this way. She is not longer his Queen, he can complain and ask her lover why? do you still love me? I want to be with you, etc.

And thus, believing everything she says without a doubt, or, instead, not wanting to believe the rumours because she controls him. So, she didn't have to act (cry and apologise to Jaime for Lancel) or convince Jaime that HS is the evil of the movie. With one word, he was convinced.

Cersei is the anthitesis of Brienne. However, in the showverse Brienne's first effect on Jaime (s3) lasted less than in the books and Cersei managed to brainwash him to make him do what she wanted when she wanted.

And  in real life she doesn't regret anything: she has a devious plan2 and makes it sure it will happen if Plan 1 The Mountain is not possible. Thanks to breathing fresh air in Riverrun, and talking to Brienne again (his real true love) he is now reconverting into a new Jaime, again. 

[Meera of Tarth]

1 hour ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

 

I suspect Jaime will be angry but Cersei will no longer give a crap about what Jaime thinks of her.  She will be more similar to the book version next season, IMO, disdainful and belittling towards him.  But, we'll see!  It will be interesting for sure...  

 

yes, this is what I also think it will happen.

[Meera of Tarth]

41 minutes ago, Elisabetta Duò said:

Well to me Jamie/Brienne and SanSan are quite different things for many reasons (intent of the Author, character development, influence of the characters on each other, outcome and others), but I don't wanna go into it (I'm not willing to start an off topic discussion about it... first because it's off topic - I mention it because somehow SanSan has been mentioned in this Jamie Brienne topic - and second, for personal reasons). Just pointing out that 'to everyone their own opinions' but it's not a similitude everyone agrees on (except for the obvious beauty/beast nod).

I agree with that. Martin seems to like a lot BaTB stories (and he used to be a scriptwriter of the show Beaty and The Beast from the early 90s), and considering he has lots of characters he decided to use this story with some of them.

SanSan is more classic and JB is more transgressive and unconventional. We have already talked that it's even a little difficult to discern who is The Beauty and who is The Beast! 

[Cron]

4 hours ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

Yah she's a lot older.  But we should probably be considering show Briennes age which is mid to late 20s I guess (Jaime is ~40 in the show, ~30 in the book).  

I am also convinced of this BUT I don't think it will be until late in Season 8, giving very little time for any other Brienne ending besides her continuing to serve as a knight 

*shrug* you could be right. There are Plenty of people that read the books who think that Brienne might even end up with Ser Hyle.  It seems to be sort of a "why not him?" Kind of thing in both cases though.  

Just by way of conversation, my strong understanding is that in the books Tyrion is 28 when the series starts, while Jaime and Cersei are 35.  In the show, at one point we are told Jaime is 40.  Minimally, I think Joffrey says Jaime is 40 when he is mocking Jaime about the sparsity of his accomplishmnts in the White Book.

Regarding Brienne, yeah, I'm not saying I believe Jaime will dien and then a long romance will be developed between Jaime and Brienne.   Rather, I believe it will continue to be set up over the next 12 or 13 episodes, subtly, then Jaime dies, and Brienne ends up with Tormund.

Just my opinions.

[Meera of Tarth]

In the thread about 

@sweetsunray has posted a link (Bear Wedding) about an essay she has been working with. It's about how there is a deeper bear theme in the scene of the bear pit with Jaime and Brienne.

It is very compelling. The conclusion of it is that in symbolic terms, Jaime is a knight-bear and he and Brienne are already "married", yet not bedded.

In the show, the episode name is "The Bear and The Maiden Fair" and the ending credits it's also that song. Interesting.

[Cron]

4 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

In the thread about 

@sweetsunray has posted a link (Bear Wedding) about an essay she has been working with. It's about how there is a deeper bear theme in the scene of the bear pit with Jaime and Brienne.

It is very compelling. The conclusion of it is that in symbolic terms, Jaime is a knight-bear and he and Brienne are already "married", yet not bedded.

In the show, the episode name is "The Bear and The Maiden Fair" and the ending credits it's also that song. Interesting.

This is a great thread, which I have been reading with interest, in large part b/c I believe the relationship between Jaime and Brienne is, quite possibly, the most fascinating relationship between two people in all of ASOIAF.

But I'm curious about something, and I apologize if you've already mentioned this, here or elsewhere:  Do you believe Jaime is going to die, or no?   It seems very clear to me that you are strongly hoping to see Jaime and Brienne get together romantically, but then what?  What is your long term prediction for them?

These are honest, open questions, I'm not challenging any of your views here, in fact I agree with a lot of what you write.

[Meera of Tarth]

11 hours ago, Cron said:

This is a great thread, which I have been reading with interest, in large part b/c I believe the relationship between Jaime and Brienne is, quite possibly, the most fascinating relationship between two people in all of ASOIAF.

But I'm curious about something, and I apologize if you've already mentioned this, here or elsewhere:  Do you believe Jaime is going to die, or no?   It seems very clear to me that you are strongly hoping to see Jaime and Brienne get together romantically, but then what?  What is your long term prediction for them?

These are honest, open questions, I'm not challenging any of your views here, in fact I agree with a lot of what you write.

I agree it's very fascinating.

I don't know, I'm not quite sure. I believe it can happen and the chances are around 50%. If it happens, it could be because he dies a hero or because Bran does Stark justice (bittersweet). I don't see him dying with Cersei at all.

I suppose it is quite possible because  but I wouldn't say I believe it 100%.

I also think that since the ending will be bittersweet, some people have to survive, and "some" in this world is quite a lot of them.

I'm not even sure if my favoruties (Arya, Bran, Brienne...) are gonna survive or not.

[Cridefea]

great thread!! I've been talking about what will happen in another thread with @Cron 

17 hours ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

I suspect Jaime will be angry but Cersei will no longer give a crap about what Jaime thinks of her.  She will be more similar to the book version next season, IMO, disdainful and belittling towards him.  But, we'll see!  It will be interesting for sure...  

 

I agree. First things we'll see in the next season will be Jaime dealing with his relationship with Cersei and they'll come to the same breaking point we've read in the books.

On the other hand we have Brienne returning to Sansa. My guess is that she will never reach her and will meet LS instead. Same story as books too.

In long terms it's hard to say. What I really love to see is both of them alive and together. Maybe in Tarth. But what I really think will happen is that they'll have a major role in the fight against the Others. I think they will probably survive to LS, but i'm not 100% sure they will be both alive in the ending.

[Meera of Tarth]

55 minutes ago, Cridefea said:

great thread!! I've been talking about what will happen in another thread with @Cron 

I agree. First things we'll see in the next season will be Jaime dealing with his relationship with Cersei and they'll come to the same breaking point we've read in the books.

On the other hand we have Brienne returning to Sansa. My guess is that she will never reach her and will meet LS instead. Same story as books too.

 

Oh, I'd love her to meet LS!! However, I think she should have appeared this season..I have the feeling that now it's very late, although if that happened I would be thrilled!

Quote

In long terms it's hard to say. What I really love to see is both of them alive and together. Maybe in Tarth. But what I really think will happen is that they'll have a major role in the fight against the Others. I think they will probably survive to LS, but i'm not 100% sure they will be both alive in the ending.

I totally agree with you!

[Cron]

2 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I agree it's very fascinating.

I don't know, I'm not quite sure. I believe it can happen and the chances are around 50%. If it happens, it could be because he dies a hero or because Bran does Stark justice (bittersweet). I don't see him dying with Cersei at all.

I suppose it is quite possible because  but I wouldn't say I believe it 100%.

I also think that since the ending will be bittersweet, some people have to survive, and "some" in this world is quite a lot of them.

I'm not even sure if my favoruties (Arya, Bran, Brienne...) are gonna survive or not.

Cool, yeah, I think that explains our slightly different views on the Jaime and Brienne situation,  You believe that Jaime has about a coin flip chance of living, but I don't.

I would be fine with Jaime and Brienne living "happily ever after," but I believe it's about 98 percent likely that Jaime is going to die, so I'm already looking for back up guys for Brienne to be happy with, cuz I want her to be happy, and I think the Tormund story line is being set up for that purpose, even though I think you really dislike the idea of Brienne being with Tormund at the end, HAR.

Regarding the rest of your post, you may be interested to know, if you're not already aware, that I've heard we DO know the final survivors, or at least some ot them.   If you're not aware of it, I could tell you, but it's such a potentially huge spoiler that I don't want to post it unless someone asks.  If you want, I could try to message it to you, but I don't know how to do that "hidden content" thing on a regular post yet, and like I said, I'm reluctant to just put information like that in a regular post, since it could be the ultimate spoiler.

So maybe you don't want to know, and if so that's fine too, of course.  Personally, i don't mind spoilers, but some people are very strict about avoiding them.

[Prince of the North]

1 hour ago, Cron said:

Cool, yeah, I think that explains our slightly different views on the Jaime and Brienne situation,  You believe that Jaime has about a coin flip chance of living, but I don't.

I would be fine with Jaime and Brienne living "happily ever after," but I believe it's about 98 percent likely that Jaime is going to die, so I'm already looking for back up guys for Brienne to be happy with, cuz I want her to be happy, and I think the Tormund story line is being set up for that purpose, even though I think you really dislike the idea of Brienne being with Tormund at the end, HAR.

Regarding the rest of your post, you may be interested to know, if you're not already aware, that I've heard we DO know the final survivors, or at least some ot them.   If you're not aware of it, I could tell you, but it's such a potentially huge spoiler that I don't want to post it unless someone asks.  If you want, I could try to message it to you, but I don't know how to do that "hidden content" thing on a regular post yet, and like I said, I'm reluctant to just put information like that in a regular post, since it could be the ultimate spoiler.

So maybe you don't want to know, and if so that's fine too, of course.  Personally, i don't mind spoilers, but some people are very strict about avoiding them.

Cron,

In any post simply click on the little "eye" icon on the bar at the top.  It will create a "spoiler" box in your post that will hide whatever you want to put in it.

Hope that helps!

[Meera of Tarth]

1 hour ago, Cron said:

Cool, yeah, I think that explains our slightly different views on the Jaime and Brienne situation,  You believe that Jaime has about a coin flip chance of living, but I don't.

I would be fine with Jaime and Brienne living "happily ever after," but I believe it's about 98 percent likely that Jaime is going to die, so I'm already looking for back up guys for Brienne to be happy with, cuz I want her to be happy, and I think the Tormund story line is being set up for that purpose, even though I think you really dislike the idea of Brienne being with Tormund at the end, HAR.

Regarding the rest of your post, you may be interested to know, if you're not already aware, that I've heard we DO know the final survivors, or at least some ot them.   If you're not aware of it, I could tell you, but it's such a potentially huge spoiler that I don't want to post it unless someone asks.  If you want, I could try to message it to you, but I don't know how to do that "hidden content" thing on a regular post yet, and like I said, I'm reluctant to just put information like that in a regular post, since it could be the ultimate spoiler.

So maybe you don't want to know, and if so that's fine too, of course.  Personally, i don't mind spoilers, but some people are very strict about avoiding them.

Cron.....oh my god! if the source is 100% reliable (and secretive) I definitely don't want to know! 

But ....mmmm maybe yes?!!

You can use a spoiler tag!

[Cron]

5 hours ago, Prince of the North said:

Cron,

In any post simply click on the little "eye" icon on the bar at the top.  It will create a "spoiler" box in your post that will hide whatever you want to put in it.

Hope that helps!

Spoiler

Good, good.

Thanks.

HARRRR

 

[Cron]

5 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Cron.....oh my god! if the source is 100% reliable (and secretive) I definitely don't want to know! 

But ....mmmm maybe yes?!!

You can use a spoiler tag!

Ohhhh...can't say for sure it's 100 percent reliable, so I guess that means you definitely don't want to know.

So sad.

If you change your mind and decide you want it, let me know.

[Cridefea]

7 hours ago, Cron said:

 

Regarding the rest of your post, you may be interested to know, if you're not already aware, that I've heard we DO know the final survivors, or at least some ot them.   If you're not aware of it, I could tell you, but it's such a potentially huge spoiler that I don't want to post it unless someone asks.  If you want, I could try to message it to you, but I don't know how to do that "hidden content" thing on a regular post yet, and like I said, I'm reluctant to just put information like that in a regular post, since it could be the ultimate spoiler.

So maybe you don't want to know, and if so that's fine too, of course.  Personally, i don't mind spoilers, but some people are very strict about avoiding them.

Oooh now i'm curious too!!! also because, speaking of survivors, i'm not sure to survive to read the books, given the timing of the writing! maybe you can use the PM..

[Meera of Tarth]

13 hours ago, Cron said:

Ohhhh...can't say for sure it's 100 percent reliable, so I guess that means you definitely don't want to know.

So sad.

If you change your mind and decide you want it, let me know.

I fear a little spoilers for my favourites.

but you can put it with the spoiler tag (the eye) and then people will only read it  if they want.

now I am curious too!

[Cron]

4 hours ago, Cridefea said:

Oooh now i'm curious too!!! also because, speaking of survivors, i'm not sure to survive to read the books, given the timing of the writing! maybe you can use the PM..

I'm not averse to using the Personal Messaging, but I'm still kind of new here, and not really sure what the protocol is.

Do people just PM each other on their own initiative, or is that considered rude?

I'm not really clear on whether that sort of thing is "by invitation only."

Do you, or anyone else here, have thoughts about this?  Is there some etiquette in the rules or something?

[Meera of Tarth]

@Cron I know something but I don't know if it's the same spoiler as yours

Spoiler

In the general outline from 1993, Martin said:

"Five central characters will make it through all three volumes... The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow."

but then he said that it was only a general outline, and that things have changed, so, in technically, we don't know anything