Characters you dislike or hate

[LiveFirstDieLater]

1 hour ago, LionoftheWest said:

The idea that Catelyn is petty is nonsense as is the idea that Catelyn is incompetent. In fact I'd say that she is among the most competent people close to Robb.

For being petty I find it hilarious that a person who is petty is the only one to suggest a peace with the Iron Throne after Jamie was captured amd Eddard executed. That peace could have left both North and Riverlands better off to face the Long Night than if their male lords had been less proud, petty and warlike.

And then there's the fact that she recognize how dangerous it is for the Lannisters to be in possession of her daughters when Robb is ignorant of it, as answer to the claim that all her advice was bad.

Furthermore Catelyn is not single-handedly responsible for the War of Five Kings. Taking Tyrion was a bad move but at no point did it cause a war by itself. Robert ordered Eddard to let Catelyn know that Tyrion was to go. If Tyrion had been let to go, there would have been no war. If Robb Stark or Tywin Lannister had decided to answer attacks on their Houses; in both cases one of their members forced to answer for a crime, with either diplomacy or demanding that a fair trial is held with open evidence against the accused before the king and accepted the verdict, there would have been no war etc. Lots of people were involved in creating the clusterfuck known as the War of Five Kings and Catelyn never warged any of them or forced anyone to add their piece to the problem. I will however recognize that Catelyn did have her part in creating the War of Five Kings.

And then in regards to parenting Catelyn was as good a mother as anyone in Westeros and probably better than most. One of the cheif things she managed to install sibling love among her children and ensure that they would be ready for the life once could expect them to have. Arya is a noble's daughter and as such will be married, regardless if she wants it or not as can be seen in how Robb promised her away to a Frey, and have a life or running a household. Trying to prepar her for this is instead of letting her do her games all day long is not bad parenting. Its caring. And since she isn't Jon's mother she can't be a bad parent for being cold to him and having ONE outburst in an emotionally unstable mindset.

Hey I get that readers might have different opinions of character... It just always amazes me how different. I mean I've loathed Cat from my first read of Game and that whole bit above seems to just be a litany of excuses...

The parenting thing seems to be mostly opinion, and we don't see her so much parenting at all, besides freaking out at Bran and Arya for not behaving (not my opinion of good parenting) oh and banishing their bastard brother... But whatever we don't see much evidence of her parenting at all... The loyalty seems to come from Ned, Sansa and her nose in the air nonsense is more like Cat.

Once Ned was dead it was too late for peace, that ship sailed... Look what happened to the last Starks who went to Kings Landing to negotiate and how that turned out... Instead she made a horrible deal with the Freys, who she should have known would betray them... And seemed to contribute nothing of worth.

In fact, she actively harms her son's side by rescuing Jaime for no conceivable reason... Literally does not make sense... Truly putting an end to any possibility of peace, as he was the one big bargaining chip.

there is no excuse for killing the poor jester

Everyone she touches has their lives ruined... She messes up everything and leaves a trail of loved ones corpses in her wake. And she has the gall to complain all along the way and then she's the one brought back from the dead! It's the clearest indication that there is no justice in the series... Right? I mean the irony of her overseeing "trials" is comical

 

 

[Guess who's back]

Daenerys Targaryen worst character with the most boring chapters in the books.

I don't think I hate anyone else.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

On 6/21/2016 at 1:07 AM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

So I think this is completely unfair... And while we all use our own metrics to judge characters, saying that a dislike of Cat is sexist is just plain silly... almost as silly as saying her hands are clean. She literally cut the throat of an innocent fool to no end besides petty vengeance. The saddest sound was the little bells

She wasn't a good mother, besides being horrible to Jon for no reason (blame Ned fine, but blaming the baby isn't right) she doesn't seem to parent Arya well, or even deal with Bran's climbing thing well. None of her advise to Rob was very good either, he basically had to parent her after Bran's fall.

I'm not defending other characters like Cersei and Tyrion... But to try and compare her to Ned is a joke... 

But the cherry on top is that she captures Tyrion in a terible plan (if you can even call it that) based on bad information she believed from a spurned suiter. Making her singlehandedly responsible for the war of five kings starting...

So it has nothing to do with her gender, I like a number of female characters, Dany, Arya, even Osha. I don't like Cat because she is incompetent, complains all the time, and is petty to the point of punishing children and fools. 

 

 

I believe you, but when other people on this post are saying they don't like Dany, Cat, or Cersei because they are "bitchy", you don't think sexism is involved a little bit? As far as a defense for Cat, I disagree strongly again. I think she was a good mother doing her best, expection he to like magnificently do everything perfectly is ridiculous. She was certainly more involved in the child rearing than Eddard was, although I think he was a fairly good father as well. I think she gave a lot of good advice to Robb. She tried to unite Robb and Renly, which I think was a smart move that could have changed the outcome of this entire thing. If Cat hadn't abducted Tyrion, then something else would have happened. Cersei wasn't going to let Eddard expose her. Tywin was ready for a war well before the abduction, and Jaime actually pushed Bran. The war was coming no matter what. I guess I can't really defend how she treated Jon, it wasn't right. But it's also natural. When people are put into situations that upset them they don't always put their anger on the right individual. She didn't want Jon around, but she couldn't get rid of him. Can you imagine not having the power to choose your own life? Eddard got to keep Jon whether Cat was okay with it or not. That's not a pleasant feeling. I mean if my wife cheated on me, I would get a divorce...but obviously its different in the world, but given that I'm male, even within this world I could certainly have sent my wife's love baby away fairly easily. I wouldn't have killed it or anything, but I wouldnt' have wanted to raise it either. Your right, the cutting of the throat of the fool was not nice, but...again, you are realy attacking her for following through with her threat as her child was killed in front of her? Sorry, I understand Cat. She reminds me of my own mother, who by the way, was a great  mother. People are far from perfect. I guess what still bothers me is that people are very willing to forgive Tyrion or Jaime their mistakes, but Cat and Dany get grilled constantly all the time. Again, Tyrion complains all the time and everyone loves him. Anyways, i respect your opinion, as unlike others, you clearly aren't motivated by sexism, which others I would say from context clues, are. However, I still disagree with you. Cat is actually my favorite character and I feel like if people would have listened to her, it could have avoided some serious mistakes that they made. Robb ignored some excellent advice she gave him. However, Petyr Baelish was a large mistake she made..but so did Ned. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I believe you, but when other people on this post are saying they don't like Dany, Cat, or Cersei because they are "bitchy", you don't think sexism is involved a little bit? As far as a defense for Cat, I disagree strongly again. I think she was a good mother doing her best, expection he to like magnificently do everything perfectly is ridiculous. She was certainly more involved in the child rearing than Eddard was, although I think he was a fairly good father as well. I think she gave a lot of good advice to Robb. She tried to unite Robb and Renly, which I think was a smart move that could have changed the outcome of this entire thing. If Cat hadn't abducted Tyrion, then something else would have happened. Cersei wasn't going to let Eddard expose her. Tywin was ready for a war well before the abduction, and Jaime actually pushed Bran. The war was coming no matter what. I guess I can't really defend how she treated Jon, it wasn't right. But it's also natural. When people are put into situations that upset them they don't always put their anger on the right individual. She didn't want Jon around, but she couldn't get rid of him. Can you imagine not having the power to choose your own life? Eddard got to keep Jon whether Cat was okay with it or not. That's not a pleasant feeling. I mean if my wife cheated on me, I would get a divorce...but obviously its different in the world, but given that I'm male, even within this world I could certainly have sent my wife's love baby away fairly easily. I wouldn't have killed it or anything, but I wouldnt' have wanted to raise it either. Your right, the cutting of the throat of the fool was not nice, but...again, you are realy attacking her for following through with her threat as her child was killed in front of her? Sorry, I understand Cat. She reminds me of my own mother, who by the way, was a great  mother. People are far from perfect. I guess what still bothers me is that people are very willing to forgive Tyrion or Jaime their mistakes, but Cat and Dany get grilled constantly all the time. Again, Tyrion complains all the time and everyone loves him. Anyways, i respect your opinion, as unlike others, you clearly aren't motivated by sexism, which others I would say from context clues, are. However, I still disagree with you. Cat is actually my favorite character and I feel like if people would have listened to her, it could have avoided some serious mistakes that they made. Robb ignored some excellent advice she gave him. However, Petyr Baelish was a large mistake she made..but so did Ned. 

So at the end of the day it's all opinion so yours is as valid as mine... And I can't speak for the sexism of others, only that I felt someone was calling me sexist for what I feel are some pretty damning marks against cat's character and not about her gender...

And the fact that you say you understand why Cat warrentlessly took out her anger on Jon, and killed the innocent fool is fine, I don't think that excuses the behavior... Just like your example of Jaime throwing Bran out of the window, he had reasons, one might understand them or not, and one might excuse them or not. Very similar, except that Jaime succeeded in, at least temporarily, hiding his incest. Wether you judge a character by the outcomes of their actions or just their intentions is up to you.

To me Cat seems to fail at almost everything she attempts, and when she does "succeed" (like capturing Tyrion or promising her son's hand to the Freys) it almost always leads to even greater disaster. So in practice she's just kinda Mrs epic fail... 

As far as her personality, I find that lacking as well. She is always complaining about how hard she has it and woe is her. She falls apart completely after Bran is hurt and shows a complete lack of ability to parent her remaining children, finally snapping and leaving Winterfell (when she was left in charge) on some ridiculous mission to bring Ned a knife. At the end of which she is immediately sent home with only time to convince Ned to trust some guy she led on as a kid but clearly he shouldn't trust. Of course leading up to capturing Tyrion, and you can say the war would happen anyway, but this is the terribly poorly thought out and factually false accusation that started the war.

I still don't think she gave Rob any good advise, what are you referring too?

I guess I'm just always amazed that people can find redeeming qualities in this horrible woman... My opinion... Clearly

[Jaime4Brienne]

On 6/20/2016 at 6:10 PM, LionoftheWest said:

(clip)

And then in regards to parenting Catelyn was as good a mother as anyone in Westeros and probably better than most. (clip)

You're kidding me right? She ran off and left Rickon (four) and Bran (in a coma). Good mother? NO. She was absolutely terrible to Jon. Good mother? NO. Catelyn is in no way a good mother and the Septa and the servants probably did 98% of the raising of the kids. I probably hate her so much because I'm a mother myself and some of the things she does is really unconscionable. 

[Tijgy]

Ramsay, Littlefinger, Roose, Walder and Tyrion

[Danelle]

17 hours ago, Jaime4Brienne said:

You're kidding me right? She ran off and left Rickon (four) and Bran (in a coma). Good mother? NO. She was absolutely terrible to Jon. Good mother? NO. Catelyn is in no way a good mother and the Septa and the servants probably did 98% of the raising of the kids. I probably hate her so much because I'm a mother myself and some of the things she does is really unconscionable. 

I did not like Catelyn and I like Uncat even less.

One thing is for certain: she is a polarising character.

[HexMachina]

On 20 June 2016 at 5:07 PM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

So I think this is completely unfair... And while we all use our own metrics to judge characters, saying that a dislike of Cat is sexist is just plain silly... almost as silly as saying her hands are clean. She literally cut the throat of an innocent fool to no end besides petty vengeance. The saddest sound was the little bells

She wasn't a good mother, besides being horrible to Jon for no reason (blame Ned fine, but blaming the baby isn't right) she doesn't seem to parent Arya well, or even deal with Bran's climbing thing well. None of her advise to Rob was very good either, he basically had to parent her after Bran's fall.

I'm not defending other characters like Cersei and Tyrion... But to try and compare her to Ned is a joke... 

But the cherry on top is that she captures Tyrion in a terible plan (if you can even call it that) based on bad information she believed from a spurned suiter. Making her singlehandedly responsible for the war of five kings starting...

So it has nothing to do with her gender, I like a number of female characters, Dany, Arya, even Osha. I don't like Cat because she is incompetent, complains all the time, and is petty to the point of punishing children and fools. 

 

 

Um, so you criticise her for not stopping Bran climbing. She is the one who actually tried to get him to stop. Would you have her chain him up? Do you criticise Eddard for the same, if not worse (because he allows Bran to continue)? 

And how is she a bad parent to Arya? Because Arya is worried she will be reprimanded for being rude in front of a Royal? 

She was not cruel to Jon, save he one ocassion where she was consumed by grief and despair for Bran. Mostly she ignored him. Why is that a problem? Are you really saying we should expect her to love the living reminder of her husband's infidelity? The men and women who could truthfully do that are few and far between I think.

[OuttaOldtown]

2 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Um, so you criticise her for not stopping Bran climbing. She is the one who actually tried to get him to stop. Would you have her chain him up? Do you criticise Eddard for the same, if not worse (because he allows Bran to continue)? 

And how is she a bad parent to Arya? Because Arya is worried she will be reprimanded for being rude in front of a Royal? 

She was not cruel to Jon, save he one ocassion where she was consumed by grief and despair for Bran. Mostly she ignored him. Why is that a problem? Are you really saying we should expect her to love the living reminder of her husband's infidelity? The men and women who could truthfully do that are few and far between I think.

She also considered sacrificing her own nephew & okayed the murder of her brother, oh wait, that was the beloved Stannis, that's right. 

[HexMachina]

17 hours ago, Jaime4Brienne said:

You're kidding me right? She ran off and left Rickon (four) and Bran (in a coma). Good mother? NO. She was absolutely terrible to Jon. Good mother? NO. Catelyn is in no way a good mother and the Septa and the servants probably did 98% of the raising of the kids. I probably hate her so much because I'm a mother myself and some of the things she does is really unconscionable. 

But this is surely a case of imposing modern ideas of parenthood into a completely different context. I mean, by that metric Ned is also a terrible father for leaving things mostly to Maester Luwin and Rodrik Cassel in raising his kids. Also, it's not like she left Rickon and Bran alone. They were well cared for and protected.

She was also not Jon's mother and owed no obligation to him

[Tijgy]

25 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Um, so you criticise her for not stopping Bran climbing. She is the one who actually tried to get him to stop. Would you have her chain him up? Do you criticise Eddard for the same, if not worse (because he allows Bran to continue)? 

And how is she a bad parent to Arya? Because Arya is worried she will be reprimanded for being rude in front of a Royal? 

She was not cruel to Jon, save he one ocassion where she was consumed by grief and despair for Bran. Mostly she ignored him. Why is that a problem? Are you really saying we should expect her to love the living reminder of her husband's infidelity? The men and women who could truthfully do that are few and far between I think.

Cat was the one trying to stop him. Ned gave up after he saw Bran would just not stop doing that and he said to Bran not tell your mother. Ned was amazing sweet father but he was really bad at disciplining them. And Cat also made Ned promise not let Bran climb the Red Keep. 

That was just Bran, the kid who would keep climbing no matter what you did.

Blame Jaime who actually pushed Bran. 

[HexMachina]

Just now, Tijgy said:

Cat was the one trying to stop him. Ned gave up after he saw Bran would just not stop doing that and he said to Bran not tell your mother. Ned was amazing sweet father but he was really bad at disciplining them. And Cat also made Ned promise not let Bran climb the Red Keep. 

That was just Bran, the kid who would keep climbing no matter what you did.

That's what I said....

[Mark Antony]

Of all the bizarre Cat criticism I've seen over the years... now she didn't even give Robb good advice haha. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

36 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Um, so you criticise her for not stopping Bran climbing. She is the one who actually tried to get him to stop. Would you have her chain him up? Do you criticise Eddard for the same, if not worse (because he allows Bran to continue)? 

And how is she a bad parent to Arya? Because Arya is worried she will be reprimanded for being rude in front of a Royal? 

She was not cruel to Jon, save he one ocassion where she was consumed by grief and despair for Bran. Mostly she ignored him. Why is that a problem? Are you really saying we should expect her to love the living reminder of her husband's infidelity? The men and women who could truthfully do that are few and far between I think.

Slow down now, I criticize her for her behavior and parenting... It wasn't the climbing that was even the issue right? He didn't fall he was thrown... 

But comparing Ned and her with Bran and Arya, for me (again it's opinion), is night and day. Ned bends, he tries to see who his kid is and, you know, parent them. Be it climbing or swords instead of dancing... Cat breaks, her reaction to behavior she doesn't like is to scold and chastise. When her kids needed her most she fell apart then ran away.

.. We don't see everything, and I'm not doubting her love for her kids, but I don't think she was a good parent either.

She seemed pretty damn cruel to Jon... And I'm not saying good people are common, but that doesn't excuse being a bad person. 

34 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

But this is surely a case of imposing modern ideas of parenthood into a completely different context. I mean, by that metric Ned is also a terrible father for leaving things mostly to Maester Luwin and Rodrik Cassel in raising his kids. Also, it's not like she left Rickon and Bran alone. They were well cared for and protected.

She was also not Jon's mother and owed no obligation to him

We don't see all the parenting, and fantasy Middle Ages isn't modern times... But the first chapter of the book is Ned parenting, and his advise is remembered by his kids pretty often... Cat's not so much... Though maybe Sansa picked up on the disdain for Jon.

We should all be judged by how we treat those we have no obligation too...

in her case I just don't see any redeeming qualities

[The Sleeper]

Oh goody, more Cat bashing. Let's not forget she screwed up the seasons, rallied the Others, drowned the Drowned God, (who was previously simply known as the God), invented Ro-hypnol and co-produced Family Guy.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

55 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

Oh goody, more Cat bashing. Let's not forget she screwed up the seasons, rallied the Others, drowned the Drowned God, (who was previously simply known as the God), invented Ro-hypnol and co-produced Family Guy.

You read the name of the thread right?

what did you expect to find here?

go back to sleep

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

21 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I still don't think she gave Rob any good advise, what are you referring too?

1. Frey marriages were a good idea. 

2. Trying for peace rather than declaring King of the North. (My opinion)

3. Don't send Theon Greyjoy to Pyke. 

4. Attempt to ally with Renly Baratheon. 

5. Trade Jaime for Sansa (I know you probably don't agree with me on this, but ...Jaime would have followed through had Sansa still been there...perhaps Catelyn and Sansa would have headed North or to the Eyrie instead of the Twins. It certainly could have changed things. 

6. Capturing Tyrion could have ended differently, ...unfortunatly her sister Lysa is an idiot. (Now there is someone I can understand hating). If Tyrion had not been allowed to escape, Eddard could have been traded for him...and probably would have been. 

7. I could be wrong, but didn't she tell Eddard to leave King's Landing after the attack on Bran's life?

[Alan of Rosby]

The name eludes me, but GRR Martin made a Dornish guard a POV character in A Feast for Crows I think (it's been ages, can't remember as well). I didn't even dislike his character that much, I just didn't give a toss about him. I ended up hating him because I hated the fact that he was made POV character and he wasn't interesting enough to justify it. 

[Knight of Onions]

20 minutes ago, Alan of Rosby said:

The name eludes me, but GRR Martin made a Dornish guard a POV character in A Feast for Crows I think (it's been ages, can't remember as well). I didn't even dislike his character that much, I just didn't give a toss about him. I ended up hating him because I hated the fact that he was made POV character and he wasn't interesting enough to justify it. 

Areo Hotah. I don't hate him, because I find Dorne interesting, but he is surrounded by much more interesting people. Doran, Arianne, the Sand Snakes etc.

[Alan of Rosby]

24 minutes ago, Knight of Onions said:

Areo Hotah. I don't hate him, because I find Dorne interesting, but he is surrounded by much more interesting people. Doran, Arianne, the Sand Snakes etc.

I suppose your mileage may vary. I think that the over expansion of POV characters is the series' greatest weakness

You might have liked Areo Hotah but I'm sure you can think of three or more POV characters that bored you to tears. A Feast for Crows and A Dance of Dragons was replete with them.