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Benjen Stark! Why head west when your path was North through the haunted forest?


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I have searched but never found any forum threads anywhere on this. 
I hadn't thought to much about Benjen In great detail lately but some text caught my eye concerning Ben from AGOT JON III and it set me to thinking and i wondered if I have missed something and if this has been brought up anywhere before?.

AGOT JON III: 

"They were looking for Ser Waymar Royce, his father is bannerman to Lord Arryn. Uncle Benjen said they might search as far as the Shadow Tower. That's all the way up in the mountains."

Jon says his uncle would be looking for Waymar and the other Rangers and might search as far as the Shadow tower which is way up in the mountains.

The shadow tower is way way west of castle black towards westwatch and the bridge of skulls, why would Benjen head that way when Waymar had been tracking Wildlings way way north through the haunted forest? 

AGOT PROLOGUE:

"Nine days they had been riding, north and northwest and then north again, farther and farther from the Wall, hard on the track of a band of Wildling raiders."

If we look at the map, the north then northwest and north again could mean north then northwest to Crasters keep and a bit beyond to the west a bit more toward the milkwater but not to near it and definitely not crossing it, and then north again deep into the haunted forest past the first lake you see on the map on the east side. This is a complete different direction to which Ben heads and he is allegedly tracking them.

So we know Waymar headed near enough directly North with a bit of a north west turn because he headed by Crasters keep on the journey, but Benjen never followed that way. We know this two ways. 

ACOK JON III: (Craster).

"I've not seen Benjen Stark for three years," he was telling Mormont. "And if truth be told, I never once missed him."

And.


AGOT JON IV:

"The thought of Benjen Stark saddened him; his uncle was still missing. The Old Bear had sent out rangers in search of him. Ser Jaremy Rykker had led two sweeps, and Quorin Halfhand had gone forth from the Shadow Tower, but they'd found nothing aside from a few blazes in the trees that his uncle had left to mark his way. In the stony highlands to the northwest, the marks stopped abruptly and all trace of Ben Stark vanished."

So Craster hasn't saw Benjen since Waymar passed his keep for certain, and if Ben was tracking Waymar north he would have enquired at the keep surely, but he doesn't. And also Quorin found Benjens trail and blazes in the trees in the far west but the marks of Benjens stop abruptly in the stony highlands to the Northwest.

So what made you strike far west Ben Stark? When Waymar, Will and Gared struck far North and nowhere near as west as that? 
Were you searching for them? Or something else? 

Have I missed something? Like I said it's been a while I've looked over all things Benjen Stark. 

What's the forums thoughts?.

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55 minutes ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

We know that Ser Waymar went almost straight north. Benjen didn't. North-westish is probably the most common direction for such patrols, so Benjen tried to pick up the track there.

But its never implied once that Waymar and co had tracked the wildlings west toward the shadow tower. They struck out North then northwest and headed for Crasters keep before heading north again deeper into the forest. Benjen and everybody at the wall would have known that waymar would have checking in with craster as thats what rangers do, they stop by cratsers for news, shelter, a hot meal etc. Upon ranging out Royce would have either been advised by mormont to head by crasters, or he would have made it part of his plans himself. But the plans for the direction of his ranging would have been shared with the other officers at castle black so they could follow if needs be etc.

If Benjen meant to strike out on a direct mission to find Waymar he would have followed the same path as waymar did which would have begun with a visit to crasters to seek news of the young ranger dont you think?

Benjen seems to have struck for the far west very quickly, not the north west. His trail is found not far from the shadow tower and lead into the stony highlands northwest of the shadow tower on the west side of the milkwater. why do you presume he does this. 

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No. Benjen wouldn't have known. Couldn't have known. Ser Waymar left Castle Black following the tracks of some raiders. He didn't know that they would go almost straight north, close to Craster's Keep, either.

Benjen's information about Ser Waymar's route ended basically within eyesight of Castle Black.

 

The north-westish route seems to be the more dangerous one, with the Frostfangs and everything complicating the issue. Scouting it first makes sense.

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Another thought on the matter. What if Benjen had it from a wildling source about the plan for the wildlings to mass at the frostfangs and struck west to investigate himself?. Possibly he instructed his men to continue the search for Waymar and they did but were killed before they reached Crasters?.

I just cannot sit comfortably with the idea now that Benjen ever personally went in search of Waymar. It seems more to me he had his own agenda west.

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1 minute ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

No. Benjen wouldn't have known. Couldn't have known. Ser Waymar left Castle Black following the tracks of some raiders. He didn't know that they would go almost straight north, close to Craster's Keep, either.

Benjen's information about Ser Waymar's route ended basically within eyesight of Castle Black.

 

The north-westish route seems to be the more dangerous one, with the Frostfangs and everything complicating the issue. Scouting it first makes sense.

Why are you so sure that Benjen wouldnt have known that Waymar will and gared was heading North and would have stopped by crasters? Dont you think that they would have consulted with the first ranger of the NW their planned route? Of course Benjen would have known of their plan, its his job to know where his rangers range.

Even if Waymar was to proud to consult with Ben, then gared and will would have. And if they didnt then its a natural assumption that if you are looking for three lost rangers then the first place you would head is crasters for news. Ben doesnt, he strikes far west and goes further northwest in to the mountains- Why?.

Also, if Waymar was following a wildling trail, dont you think the first ranger of the NW could have followed their trail?

 

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A couple of quotes that show more on why the Rangers and everybody at Castke black would have expected Ben to follow normal protocol and seek Waymar etc north through the haunted forest and stop by Crasters to seek news. 

AGOT JON III:

"Three days after their arrival, Jon had heard that Benjen Stark was to lead a half-dozen men on a ranging into the haunted forest."

AGOT BRAN IV:

"The youngest of the black brothers shifted uncomfortably in his seat. "There's not a man on the Wall knows the haunted forest better than Benjen Stark He'll find his way back." 
"Well," said Yoren, "maybe he will and maybe he won't. Good men have gone into those woods before, and never come out."

And here Smallwood says to Craster that Benjen should have checked in by his keep.

ACOK JON III:

"He ought to have passed here last year," said Thoren Smallwood. A dog came sniffing round his leg. He kicked it and sent it off yipping."

The general consensus among the Rangers is that Ben would have Ranged up north through the haunted forest seeking Waymar etc and would have headed for Crasters for news while doing so. He doesn't, and the only signs we have of Benjen are much further west and the trail stops way way north west in the mountains on the other side of the milkwater. It asks the question again- why does Ben not follow the normal protocol everybody in Castle black expects him to(range into the haunted forest and seek Craster for news) and strikes out west and further west into the mountains first without seeming to ever actually look for Royce and co.?

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First things first. Why did Mormont send Waymar and two men to track a group of eight wildlings?

Craster says Waymar & his men visited his keep. I don’t remember if Craster told Mormont which direction Waymar took off in. The Haunted Forest is huge. Craster’s Keep is in the Haunted Forest. Jon took his vows at a weirwood grove in the Haunted Forest. At the foot of the Frostfangs lies the Haunted Forest. All the prologue says is that Waymar & his men were in the haunted forest, eight maybe nine days from the Wall.

The odd thing is Craster tells Mormont that he has not seen First Ranger Benjen Stark in three years. Craster’s seems to be gossip central for CB to glean information from, yet the First Ranger has not ventured there in three years. Har, I may delegate tasks, but every once in a while I gotta check things out meself.

How, why and when did two of Benjen’s blue eyed men turn up? They were found in the Haunted Forest when Jon went to the weirwood grove to take his vows.

Halfhand from Shadow Tower has more creditably than Craster, "The cold winds are rising. Mormont feared as much. Benjen Stark felt it as well. Dead men walk and the trees have eyes again. Why should we balk at wargs and giants? If Halfhand knows what Mormont & Benjen thought there must have been some ravens flapping between CB & ST or there is that possibility that when Rangers went out scouting they had a raven or two with them.

Keep in mind that when Halfhand told Jon "the cold winds are rising" because it was after Mormont sent Halfhand & company from the Fist.

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4 minutes ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

It's a shame Gared didn't tell Ned what exactly had happened prior to Gared's execution. Would have saved Benjen the trouble of searching as well as the lives of the men who went out after him...

Supposedly Gared tried but Eddard thought the man had lost his mind.:dunno:

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48 minutes ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

I hate to speak ill of the dead, but Ned had pretty terrible judgement when it came to matters of actual importance...

:dunno: it takes about 4,000 pages to figure out stuff, while flipping back and forth from book to book. Of course that depends on which story line a person likes to follow. Even then there is no clear answer.

AND there is no clear answer in sight. BUT somewhere out there the story will have an end. Maybe. :worried:

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5 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Why are you so sure that Benjen wouldnt have known that Waymar will and gared was heading North and would have stopped by crasters? Dont you think that they would have consulted with the first ranger of the NW their planned route? Of course Benjen would have known of their plan, its his job to know where his rangers range.

Even if Waymar was to proud to consult with Ben, then gared and will would have. And if they didnt then its a natural assumption that if you are looking for three lost rangers then the first place you would head is crasters for news. Ben doesnt, he strikes far west and goes further northwest in to the mountains- Why?.

Also, if Waymar was following a wildling trail, dont you think the first ranger of the NW could have followed their trail?

They would have consulted with Benjen if they knew which way the wildling raiders would take beforehand. They didn't. They were following a trail. They got no radio to report their progress to Castle Black. Nobody knew.

 

Not a full year afterwards. Trails detoriate.

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Utter Crackpot:

Ned killed Gared when he did so he couldn't tell Ben the truth. He then lied to Ben, telling him that Gared went west so that Ben would follow that path, and not chase down the Others. Somehow, this is connected to why he dismisses Cat in her first PoV chapter - perhaps he's actively trying to keep their existence secret?

 

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9 hours ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

They would have consulted with Benjen if they knew which way the wildling raiders would take beforehand. They didn't. They were following a trail. They got no radio to report their progress to Castle Black. Nobody knew.

 

Not a full year afterwards. Trails detoriate.

They would have consulted Ben 100% beforehand because he was in WF at the time and doesn't get Neds summons until later, and that is regardless of if they knew the raiders planned route or not. 

Why do you think Waymar and co set out? A Wildling trail had been found in the forest leading north, probably by foresters getting wood etc or even a smaller sweep by Rangers. The decision must have been made by the NW to send an organised dedicated ranging after this trail, and Waymar stepped up, and because Mormont yielded and let him go, Benjen being first ranger did to.

Mormont chose two excellent Rangers to accompany him and they would have been at Benjens advice as he is first ranger. So we have three Rangers heading out north after a trail, we know the trail headed north because that's the first direction they take before veering north west to Crasters to check in as per NW protocol. 

So if Ben knew that, and the rest knew that. Why does Bens actions show no sign whatsoever of following Waymar etc.?

His blazes in the trees head west and end in the far west in the mountains west of the milkwater. 

Where are you getting a full year after? Ben leaves very soon after his return to the wall with Jon. In any event that's irrelevant if what you mean by a trail deteriorating is the footprints I the snow would be gone. This is true, but if Ben leaves blazes in the tree then why wouldn't Gared and Will leave marks to show their path? 

And in any event the biggest indicator of their way is the direction where they headed 1st- direct north, and the second indicator is the fact they were going to stop by Crasters as would have been known and discussed already. Every ranger and brother at castle black would know that would be their plan. 

So it begs the question again, why do Bens tracks and blaze trail and the fact he never stopped by Crasters show him striking west when the Rangers headed north?.

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14 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

First things first. Why did Mormont send Waymar and two men to track a group of eight wildlings?

Craster says Waymar & his men visited his keep. I don’t remember if Craster told Mormont which direction Waymar took off in. The Haunted Forest is huge. Craster’s Keep is in the Haunted Forest. Jon took his vows at a weirwood grove in the Haunted Forest. At the foot of the Frostfangs lies the Haunted Forest. All the prologue says is that Waymar & his men were in the haunted forest, eight maybe nine days from the Wall.

The odd thing is Craster tells Mormont that he has not seen First Ranger Benjen Stark in three years. Craster’s seems to be gossip central for CB to glean information from, yet the First Ranger has not ventured there in three years. Har, I may delegate tasks, but every once in a while I gotta check things out meself.

How, why and when did two of Benjen’s blue eyed men turn up? They were found in the Haunted Forest when Jon went to the weirwood grove to take his vows.

Halfhand from Shadow Tower has more creditably than Craster, "The cold winds are rising. Mormont feared as much. Benjen Stark felt it as well. Dead men walk and the trees have eyes again. Why should we balk at wargs and giants? If Halfhand knows what Mormont & Benjen thought there must have been some ravens flapping between CB & ST or there is that possibility that when Rangers went out scouting they had a raven or two with them.

Keep in mind that when Halfhand told Jon "the cold winds are rising" because it was after Mormont sent Halfhand & company from the Fist.

Three men mounted with good steel was likely a decent number against eight Wildlings and they were ordered to track them not engage.

I don't know if Craster told Mormont the Rangers headed north. I don't see why he would leave that info out off page since that is the way they headed but I don't think it appears in the text. 

The Prologue states they were heading north then north west then north again. If we look at the map given at the time the book came out, likely the only map there was at the time, this shows the north then north west likely being the route to Crasters. Then they head north again, which would see them cross a lake/river/stream or some body of water to head north deeper in to the forest which the text explains. Then we hear them gain a ridge which is beside a stream. I'd bet it's likely that stream is now being fed in land from the eastern antler river. Going by the description of their directions this seems to fit. 

If Ben had followed them north and headed by Crasters as expected, and if Will and Gared were leaving blazes or marks on the trees Ben probably could have picked up their trail maybe? 

It is strange that Ben hadn't went by Crasters in three years. Maybe he hated the man and was capable of getting news from other Wildlings. But if he was genuinely on a mission to find three Rangers who struck north after leaving castle black  he would have put up with Craster to hear if they had passed, as everybody expected him to do. 

So why did Ben strike west and his blazes end in the stony highlands west of the milkwater which for anybody to see looks like he is heading for the frost fangs, why is this so, when the three Rangers he's supposed to look for struck north from CB  and headed by Crasters which I believe 100% the Rangers would know they were going to do.

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9 hours ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

Utter Crackpot:

Ned killed Gared when he did so he couldn't tell Ben the truth. He then lied to Ben, telling him that Gared went west so that Ben would follow that path, and not chase down the Others. Somehow, this is connected to why he dismisses Cat in her first PoV chapter - perhaps he's actively trying to keep their existence secret?

 

Crackpot is always welcome.

Also some crackpot here. Ben tells Jon he might head to the shadow tower which is way west. 

All the others at Castle black expected him to range north after Waymar and stop by Crasters. 

Is it Possible Ben told Jon conflicting information to what he told Mormont etc? Likely not. It's strange though that he says he might head as far as the shadow tower when it's clear Waymar set out north from castle black. 

Maybe Ben meant that he would search north for Waymar and if it was useless that way he would then try west, but it still begs the question, why didn't he head by Crasters for news before doing so?.

Or, maybe Ben heard from the other Wildling villages like whitetree etc that the Wildlings were massing in the frost fangs and he abandons the Waymar search and strikes west immediately before even reaching near to Crasters?? 

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Ok here goes:

Benjen Stark leaves castle black on his ranging. He may have well set out to find Waymar, but he also may well have used that as a smokescreen to range out on the suspicions that the Others are again active and hostile, and also that the Wildlings are searching the frost fangs for the horn of winter.

Or, he genuinely heads in search of Waymar but hears from Wildlings from a village perhaps that Mance is searching for the horn etc and he is planning on massing Wildlings in the frost fangs to strike south. He then totally deviates from the Ranging for Waymar altogether. I'm not sure if he commanded his men to continue the search for Waymar or not.

So Benjen then strikes west and somehow finds the real horn of winter before the Wildlings find it, then wraps it in his cloak along with valuable Dragonglass weaponry and stashes it because he believes that Ghost will be drawn to its scent for Jon to find it and therefore make sure that the horn will find its way safely into the NW possesion instead of Wildlings or the Others.

Before he has stashed the goods I assume Ben was being hunted and was in clear danger. 

Make any sense to anyone?

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Or, instead of the scent of Benjen drawing Ghost to the buried cloak. Perhaps a CoTf singer on its weirwood throne in the cave had saw Ben stash it while skinchanging a Raven and then skinchanged ghost to lead Jon there. 

Or Bloodraven himself done it. 

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After rereading this piece of the chapter, maybe my last post was a bit far fetched, although not impossible. But the scent of Benjens cloak is more likely what lead ghost to it and therefore lead Jon to it. 

A Clash of Kings - Jon IV 

A sound rose out of the darkness, faint and distant, but unmistakable: the howling of wolves. Their voices rose and fell, a chilly song, and lonely. It made the hairs rise along the back of his neck. Across the fire, a pair of red eyes regarded him from the shadows. The light of the flames made them glow.

"Ghost," Jon breathed, surprised. "So you came inside after all, eh?" The white wolf often hunted all night; he had not expected to see him again till daybreak. "Was the hunting so bad?" he asked. "Here. To me, Ghost."

The direwolf circled the fire, sniffing Jon, sniffing the wind, never still. It did not seem as if he were after meat right now. When the dead came walking, Ghost knew. He woke me, warned me. Alarmed, he got to his feet. "Is something out there? Ghost, do you have a scent?" Dywen said he smelled cold.

The direwolf loped off, stopped, looked back. He wants me to follow. Pulling up the hood of his cloak, Jon walked away from the tents, away from the warmth of his fire, past the lines of shaggy little garrons. One of the horses whickered nervously when Ghost padded by. Jon soothed him with a word and paused to stroke his muzzle. He could hear the wind whistling through cracks in the rocks as they neared the ringwall. A voice called out a challenge. Jon stepped into the torchlight. "I need to fetch water for the Lord Commander."

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