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Was there ever a chance for Cersei?


dsug

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Cersei Lannister is a pretty terrible person. Every knows it. My question is, was there ever a chance for her to not be terrible?

i know a lot of people would just rant about Robert's abuse and call it a day, but I think Cersei's psyche was already set in stone when she married him, he just made it worse. But i wanna go before that. 

Are there any realistic situations in which Cersei could have grown up to be a normal, sane person? If Joanna survived and Tywin was a little less cold, could she have been shaped into something different? 

Im leaning towards a yes, simply on the grounds of "ability." If Joanna and Tywin were more present in her life, she'd maybe be a better mother and a better politician. She had no female example growing up, so she basically had no clue what to do once she had kids. And her father refused to include her in politics, so when she finally got into a position of power, she had no idea what to do with it. If her parents were alive/slightly more loving, I think she would have been more equipped for her roles later in life. 

That being said, I think "personality" was always going to be what it is. Legit mental illnesses and just general bitchiness are something you can't change in person, no matter who many times their father hugs them lol. No matter how well educated she was, Cersei was always destined to be a mean, mean woman. 

So that's what I think. I've always enjoyed looking into stuff like this, so thanks for bearing with me. What do you guys think? Was there ever a chance for her to be a halfway decent person, or was she the Mad Queen since birth?

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I definitely think she had a chance to be normal but it would have taken a lot things to make her so. For starters they would have had to curb the whole incest thing quickly. Somebody walked in on it once when they were children, I don't remember who. If they had gone to her father he could have separated them somehow are done anything to nip that early on. That would have gone a long way in curbing her future insanity because she wouldn't have had to be so paranoid that someone would eventually find out about her children. Not to mention the wars wouldn't have even broken out. If King Robert hadn't made it so clear that he had no love for her and was instead in love with Lyanna she might have actually let herself love him and bear him trueborn children.

As for her insanity I don't think that was something she was born with I think it was brought on by years of intrigue and paranoia. She kept so many secrets for so long that when they started unraveling she couldn't take it and snapped. Especially because she lost confidence her the one person she confided in, Jaime, after the whole him being a captive/losing his hand thing and he came back a different guy. But all in all she's a bitch and I'm hoping for a "golden wedding" when she has to marry someone and they kill her.

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Yes. Getting rid of Tywin Lannister while Cersei would still be an infant would be a good first step.

 

He's got a horrible influence on all three of his children. Cersei and Tyrion especially refer to him with regards to their faults. Jaime got off somewhat lighter, because he spent most of his formative years away from Tywin, under the tutelage of Sumner Crakehall and Arthur Dayne. But that isn't an option for girls. Tywin gotta go. Early.

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I recall it was servant who caught them and that servant told Joanna what he saw, Joanna told them not to do that again, or else she will tell Tywin. But then Joanna died.

If she had some education she would probably think more long term problems and benefits of her actions.

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She was quite difficult from an early age (tormenting baby Tyrion, urging Jaime to prod a caged lion), and if it's true she has significant Targ blood, she comes under the saying that the gods flip a coin when a Targ is born, so that half are insane.

But maybe if she'd had a proper outlet for her energy and ambition, like Jaime, she'd be more stable. Jaime isn't great morally, but he is calmer, less erratic, and he is showing signs of being capable of better things.

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Completely agree that doing away with Tywin would have helped a lot. However, most kids with abusive parents don't push their friends into wells out of jealousy, so I'm afraid that there was something inherently bad in Cersei's psyche from the get go.

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7 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Completely agree that doing away with Tywin would have helped a lot. However, most kids with abusive parents don't push their friends into wells out of jealousy, so I'm afraid that there was something inherently bad in Cersei's psyche from the get go.

Yeah I agree with this. Cersei has something wrong with her, no matter who raised her. But if she was separated from her abusive father, her mind would not have devolved as badly as it did 

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I think that a live Joanna would have solve most of the problems regardless if they come from Cersei or from Tywin. But its of course an interesting idea that Cersei could have turned out differently.

Also could someone tell me how Tywin abused Cersei? I don't recall anything of the nature.

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Cersei is a female Robert B. Both have

a- lost a parent (or both) when they both young
b- they both have a low IQ
c- they both use their limited skills (Robert uses his fighting skills and Cersei her beauty) to get what they want
d- they absolutely hate and grieve when someone steal their toys and would go in total destructive mode when that happens, even though the people they accuse tend not to be the ones guilty of the crime (ex all the Targs for Robert, Tyrion for Cersei)
e- they tend to prefer surrounding themselves with that one 1 Beta character whom they tend to give him the illusion that he's special for them (Eddard for Rob, Jamie for Cersei) even though when shite hits fan they don't really give a toss about them (Robert forgave Jamie for injuring his mate who assisted him in a thousand wars, Cersei slept with Lancel when Jamie wasn't available)

If Cersei was a man then she would be basically Robert, ie a warrior who cant keep it in his pants and who would smash anyone who stands in her way. 

People like them will never be happy. They will yearn for that thing that they can never get and will lose interest quickly of anything they have

 

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10 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Robert didn't had a low IQ.

Robert we see in AGOT is a chronically depressed person, Cersei however isn't. Also Robert isn't brutal and evil which Cersei obviously is.

Similar to Cersei, Robert knew how to manipulate people. I think it was Eddard who once commented how enemies would fight against him one day only to drink with him the day after. Cersei is the same. People seem to be attracted to her. Eddard went up confessing his plans to her, same as Sansa did. Not to forget Jamie who risked his life for her on a daily basis

However that's the limit of their intelligence. Robert didn't even noticed that his wife cuckolded him for years. Same as Cersei who blamed her son's death on Tyrion despite it was obvious that he was innocent (actually he was a great asset for the Lannisters)

Cersei was more frustrated then Robert mainly because she couldn't use the tools Robert could use. She lived in a male oriented society were women couldn't simply ride out to battle and vent their anger with a war hammer. However they were both brutal (ex Robert's plan in killing all Targs irrespective on whether they were guilty of Lyanna or not) and both were pretty depressed.  

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Just now, devilish said:

Robert knew how to manipulate people

There is a difference between manipulation and charisma. Robert was charismatic and Cersei manipulated the other with sex. Ther is nothing alike.

1 minute ago, devilish said:

However that's the limit of their intelligence. Robert didn't even noticed that his wife cuckolded him for years. Same as Cersei who blamed her son's death on Tyrion despite it was obvious that he was innocent.

Why because the children looked like their mother? By your logic Ned should had thought the same because four outy of five of his children looked like their mother.

3 minutes ago, devilish said:

Cersei was more frustrated then Robert mainly because she couldn't use the tools Robert could use.

There is a difference between being frustated and being depressed. Robert was depressed and Cersei was mad because she wasn't beloved by everyone.

4 minutes ago, devilish said:

However they were both brutal (ex Robert's plan in killing all Targs irrespective on whether they were guilty of Lyanna or not) and both were pretty depressed.  

If Robert really had a plan like that then the Targs would had been dead years ago. The fact that they were alive proves that Robert wasn't brutal and only attacked them after they proved to conspire against him/

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19 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

There is a difference between manipulation and charisma. Robert was charismatic and Cersei manipulated the other with sex. Ther is nothing alike.

Why because the children looked like their mother? By your logic Ned should had thought the same because four outy of five of his children looked like their mother.

There is a difference between being frustated and being depressed. Robert was depressed and Cersei was mad because she wasn't beloved by everyone.

If Robert really had a plan like that then the Targs would had been dead years ago. The fact that they were alive proves that Robert wasn't brutal and only attacked them after they proved to conspire against him/

a- Well she didn't sleep with Eddard or Sansa didn't she? Yet both came to her to confess their plans. Sex was Cersei's answer to Robert's war hammer ie that one thing she knew how to wield to get what she wanted. However her manipulation skills went beyond than just that same as Robert's 'charisma' went beyond his fighting prowess. Both had this trick of making that 1 ally with a Beta character feel special only to abandon him when he's in need. Robert didn't even lift 1 finger to punish the Kingslayer for wounding his dearest friend. Cersei didn't really cared that Jamie was captured either.

b- Both Jon Arryn and Eddard Stark had suspicions about the children's parentage and lets face it they aren't the brightest people in Westeros. Robert couldn't figure it out despite being the closest to Cersei in the group.

c- Cersei was beloved by 1 person ie Jamie same as Robert was beloved by 1 person ie Eddard. The rest either tolerated them because they were more powerful then them, or owed them allegiance or saw them as a pawn in their plan. Hey They even had a much better brother that didn't like them very much and whom they respond to by not liking them back

d- Robert couldn't get his hands on the Targs because they were in Essos (same as Cersei and her ilk cant get their hands on Tyrion). If he got his hands to the Targs he would have butchered them

Cersei is a meaner version of Robert because situation made her that way. Put Robert in a dress and have him lose Lyanna without being able to vent his rage on Rhaegar +make him feel  second best for the rest of his existance and he will be just like Cersei. Give Cersei a d*ck, military training and a warhammer and she would be killing her enemies, she would mismanage the realm in the same way Robert did and she would make the 8 same as Robert did

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32 minutes ago, devilish said:

a- Well she didn't sleep with Eddard or Sansa didn't she? Yet both came to her to confess their plans.

You seriously use two of the most idiot characters in AGOT as an example?

32 minutes ago, devilish said:

However her manipulation skills went beyond than just that same as Robert's 'charisma' went beyond his fighting prowess.

BS. Robert was able to turn his enemies into friends and capable to die for him, something that not even Jaime is ready to do for Cersei.

32 minutes ago, devilish said:

b- Both Jon Arryn and Eddard Stark had suspicions about the children's parentage and lets face it they aren't the brightest people in Westeros. Robert couldn't figure it out despite being the closest to Cersei in the group.

As I said this is bs. The children looked like their mother, that is nothing  weird. The fact that Jon and Ned didn't  liked the Lannisters is why Jon started to be suspicious.

32 minutes ago, devilish said:

- Cersei was beloved by 1 person ie Jamie same as Robert was beloved by 1 person ie Eddard

Also bs. In the books we have seen people dying for Robert and fighting for Robert's realm. Heck even Barri the coward calls Robert a good man.

32 minutes ago, devilish said:

d- Robert couldn't get his hands on the Targs because they were in Essos (same as Cersei and her ilk cant get their hands on Tyrion). If he got his hands to the Targs he would have butchered them

I cannot believe that you are serious. So the King had a difficulty to pay someone to kill the Targs because they were in Essos, something that miraculously was able to do in AGOT. He couldn't even hired a faceless man?

32 minutes ago, devilish said:

Cersei is a meaner version of Robert because situation made her that way. Put Robert in a dress and have him lose Lyanna without being able to vent his rage on Rhaegar +make him feel  second best for the rest of his existance and he will be just like Cersei. 

Robert never killed one of his friends because he was jealous.

Robert never abused one of his brothers.

Robert never ordered the death of children because he was jealous.

Robert never sold someone into slavery.

Robert never ordered a hunt for a dwarf which cause to a mass murder.

Robert never gave anyone to Quyburn to be tortured.

Yes. Cersei is exactly like Robert. 

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From her POV's in Feast I gathered that had she married Rhaegar it might have been a life changing event that would've rendered her a different woman. 

I also disagree that she has a low IQ, just because she's paranoid as hell and delusional doesn't mean she lacks intelligence. I personally find all the Lannisters to be bright..

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13 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

From her POV's in Feast I gathered that had she married Rhaegar it might have been a life changing event that would've rendered her a different woman. 

Well she was thinking that she will marry Rhaegar and it was then when she manipulated Jaime through sex to become a KG. Methinks that she was never willing to make any marriage happen and she only wanted a MaleCersei.

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