A Theory on the Ifeqevron

[Maester of Valyria]

A Theory on the Ifeqevron

[managed to fix the format problems from my last topic!]

 

One of the great mysteries of Ice and Fire is the existence of the Kingdom of the Ifeqevron (yes I know you can spell it 'Ifequevron' but this is how it's shown in the maps). Assuming (as seems apparent) that the Ifeqevron are kin to the Children of the Forest of Westeros, we are left with the daunting challenge of explaining the woods walkers' presence in Essos, given that the Children were (seemingly) never seafarers, and there doesn't appear to be any historical or archaeological evidence for them anywhere else in Essos (so they didn't migrate on foot). So, the mystery that we are left to solve is how the Children of the Forest travelled all the way from Westeros to one specific region of Essos. There has been much conjecture on this subject, but I have never seen one convincing, plausible theory (if there is one then I apologise – please send me a link).

I believe I may have found the a possible answer; and as a bonus it also covers the unicorns, mammoths, and even the Jhogwin.

 

The Main Theory

Before we start, a few excerpts from TWOIAF, with important passages underlined and the key phrases bolded:

Quote

Giants once dwelt on Ib, we are told, but none remain—though mammoths still roam the island's plains and hills, and in the higher mountains, some claim unicorns can be found.

 

Quote

Even the snowcapped northernmost peaks [...] were once home to the Jhogwin, the stone giants, massive creatures said to have been twice as large as the giants of Westeros. Alas, the last of the Jhogwin disappeared a thousand years ago; only their massive bones remain to mark where they once roamed.

 

Quote

The bones of men, the bones of horses, the bones of giants and camels and oxen, of every sort of beast and bird and monster, all can be found amongst these savage peaks.

 

Quote

After his [Corlys Velaryon's] return from the Thousand Islands, he wrote of carved trees, haunted grottoes, and strange silences [...] the Dothraki name for the lost people meant "those who walk in the woods." None of the Ibbenese that Bryan of Oldtown met could say they had ever seen a woods walker, but claimed that the little people blessed a household that left offerings of leaf and stone and water overnight.

 

Some of you may be familiar with my theory (links to which are here and in my signature; please feel free to have a read!) about global sea level change and it's impacts. The relevant tl;dr  here it is that the Children of the Forest warmed the oceans of Planetos enough to melt polar ice and cause a global deluge, flooding many coastal regions.

[Please note that this topic is not to discuss that theory; if you wish to comment on it then please do it in that theory's topic]

In certain locations this inundation 'broke' land bridges connecting one area to another; this is what happened with the Arm of Dorne, after all. After studying the distribution of small islands south of Ib I came to the conclusion that, once upon a time, Ib was connected by one such land bridge to mainland Essos, in a previous time when sea levels were lower globally. File that information away for the moment.

We know that the White Waste's boundaries are not constant, and this is what you'd expect of a polar ice cap:

Quote

...the White Waste recedes during summer and expands again in winter, its very shorelines ever changing...

Now, we know that ice ages have occurred on Planetos in the past: even without the Long Night there is abundant geological evidence of other, older cold periods on the planet. And during an ice age the northern polar ice cap will expand southward (see this picture as an illustration. The landmasses look strange because more of them are above sea level, given all the water locked in the ice caps.)

It is the premise that polar sea ice once extended much further south than the current boundaries of the White Waste that this theory is built on. During an ice age (probably not the Long Night, but a different one) the polar sea ice may have extended down to Ib, which connected Westeros to Ib. And remember, thanks to the lower sea levels Ib was connected to Essos by a land bridge!

 

This represents a route from the north of Westeros to Ib, via the sea ice. Of course, the crossing would have been perilous, with freezing conditions and shortages of food, but the Children have magic and the giants, unicorns and mammoths are big and woolly (more on the giants later). Moreover, if they had stayed near the coast they would have been able to fish the Shivering Sea's rich fishing grounds.

 

I believe that this is how the mammoths, unicorns, giants, AND THE CHILDREN OF THE FOREST got to Essos. How I believe it went from then on:

• The mammoths and unicorns stayed on Ib-proper. This certainly makes sense for the unicorns, given that they are used to a hilly landscape on Skagos, so it seems obvious why they'd stay in the mountains on Ib.

• The Children of the Forest migrated south across the land bridge to the deep forest, where they felt more at home and would interact with the Ibbenese/Hairy Men less than in the forests on Ib-proper. They then seem to have founded a 'city' (although 'settlement' is probably a better word for it) at what is now Vaes Leisi.

If I was to speculate as to why the Ifeqevron died out/disappeared, but I believe it is due to the lack of weirwoods. We are told that there are carved trees in the forest, but no weirwoods are mentioned. While we know that weirwoods can be planted artificially (as the Arryns attempted to do so at the Eyrie), it seems the Children, for whatever reason, failed to do so here. This could be for a number of reasons: perhaps they didn't bring any seeds on their migration, wrongly believing that the whole world was home to weirwoods. Perhaps they did bring some seeds, but lost them on the journey. Perhaps they succeeded in getting weirwood seeds to Essos, but the trees wouldn't grow, cut off as they were from the 'weirnet' of the countless other trees in Westeros.

The carved trees were an attempt by the Children to make themselves feel closer to their homeland, but cut off from the majority of their species they would have entered into a period of decline, much like that which Leaf and her companions have experienced. They may have just died out from inertia and hopelessness, but if you want to be really dark about it (and this is Martin, so it's a good bet), they may have all killed themselves. This would explain the 'haunted grottoes': in mythology suicide is often seen as polluting the place in which it took place.

• The giants followed the Children en masse, but at some point (for whatever reason) migrated east to Krazaaj Zasqa (the northern Bones).

  My hypothesis for why the Jhogwin were so much larger than the Westerosi giants is rooted in natural selection and physics: larger creatures retain heat more effectively, so larger giants were more able to survive the journey across the ice cap to Ib, in freezing conditions with little food. Therefore, the larger giants' genes became more predominant in the migrant population, and to such an extent that the average height of the Jhogwin came to be noticeably larger than their Westerosi counterparts. I would urge caution here though, as evolution is not a process that we have direct evidence for in this world (unlike our own world, where we have plenty!).

  Then we have the bones of giants being found in the Bone Mountains further south. As well as the obvious cause of human hostility, I would postulate that the giants did not thrive here due to being too large and woolly for the hotter environment in this region.

  However, we must take claims that the Jhogwin were twice as large as Westerosi giants with a pinch of salt: more likely they are a few feet larger and the tales have been distorted. It is even plausible that they are no different from Westerosi giants at all and Yandel has just been fed false reports. If that is indeed the case, then please ignore the last two paragraphs, but the point that giants migrated to the White Mountains from Ib still stands.

Another possible explanation for the differences between the two types of giant is greyscale. This disease seems to favour cold and damp climates, and could there be something in the Jhogwin living high up in freezing northern mountains? This could explain their name of the 'Stone Giants': they are literally partially composed of stone! The greyscale could also possibly explain the size difference: perhaps the giants' mass increased as their flesh turned to stone?

Personally, I think this is unlikely: if greyscale was so common among the giants, it is hard to see how the colony would have survived long enough to earn a place in Yandal's book. I find it far more likely that the term 'Stone giant' is a reference to the habitat in which the giants lived, and possibly to their temperament and the difficulty of eradicating them (the human population of that part of the world certainly seems to have tried). Nonetheless, I thought I would include the possibility in this essay.

• And I know you're all thinking it: what about the Others? Well I'm afraid that while I have plans for a future theory involving them in this context, I haven't completed all the necessary research yet (more about this below). Rest assured that I do have an idea for how to fit them in here; it's just not quite ready yet!

 

The Skagos Connection?

[Although I believe that the below musing has potential, I recognise that it is rather shaky conjecture, and I know that I haven't had the time to do adequate research into the possibility. Whatever your opinion on it, please bear in mind that it is largely independent of the above main theory.]

A very interesting thought occurred to me quite literally as I was writing that last paragraph. We are told that the Skagosi are:

Quote

A huge, hairy, foul-smelling folk (some maesters believe the Skagosi to have a strong admixture of Ibbenese blood; others suggest that they may be descended from giants).

Now I think we can discard the whole giant-breeding business for the moment: that is another (still worthy) question that we will not visit now. No, what is interesting here is the hint that the Skagosi and Ibbenese seem to have had contact in the past.

I would suggest that the Skagosi are in fact largely descended from a group of Ibbenese that migrated in the opposite direction to the Children et al. The reason I doubt that the reverse is true is that in the time period we are talking about (likely thousands of years before the Long Night, when humanity was still colonising areas of the globe for the first time) Ib is more likely to have been populated than Skagos, given the former's land bridge and the latter's isolation at the northern end of an unexplored hostile continent. This might make the Skagosi the real 'First Men'. The reason that they did not come to dominate the continent may be due to the extremely harsh conditions at that time and potential hostility from the main population of Children.

Now of course this is all extremely far-fetched conjecture. I plan to do a full write-up of this part of the theory at some future date (it's far too juicy to just leave here as an afterthought). But in the meantime, I thought you'd enjoy a little preview, and I'm sure some of you can help me refine and improve this idea!

 

Also upcoming: the motive that drove the Westerosi migration! Let's just say that I have some ideas that I believe have a lot of potential, and rest assured that I'm currently researching for supporting evidence. I think I've found a fair bit already...

 

 

In conclusion then, I believe that the main theory as written above represents a plausible explanation for the presence of several Westerosi species in Essos. I am feeling very chuffed with myself right now. And please keep an eye out for future topics on the above two promised theories!

 

Thank you very much for reading. I will try to reply to all comments.

 

 

 

[Shireen Purratheon]

Looking at the map, I find myself surprised how far away Ib is from Skagos. The "strong admixture of Ibbenese blood" had always made me place them near each other in my mind, before really analyzing the map after reading this. Your Skagos connection makes a lot of sense here, with the Ibbenese migrating there overland. It doesn't really make sense for Ibbenese to travel to Skagos in more recent years, given how far away it is and how similar it would be in terms of resources. There wouldn't be any incentive for a whaler to go all that way to get the exact same goods they could get at home.

[Free Northman Reborn]

1 hour ago, Shireen Purratheon said:

Looking at the map, I find myself surprised how far away Ib is from Skagos. The "strong admixture of Ibbenese blood" had always made me place them near each other in my mind, before really analyzing the map after reading this. Your Skagos connection makes a lot of sense here, with the Ibbenese migrating there overland. It doesn't really make sense for Ibbenese to travel to Skagos in more recent years, given how far away it is and how similar it would be in terms of resources. There wouldn't be any incentive for a whaler to go all that way to get the exact same goods they could get at home.

I tend to favour the Skags as having giant blood, rather than Ibbenese blood, given that the World book seems to give us both options as equally plausible. Ibbenese are not large of stature, being short and squat. The size of the Skags leads me to view the giant hypothesis as being more likely. Plus giants occur far closer to Skagos than the Ibbenese are. Also, there seems to be some doubt as to the ability of Ibbenese to actually interbreed with humans on a large scale, whereas we know it is possible with giants.

[Maester of Valyria]

Thank you both for replying: I was beginning to worry!

On 17/06/2016 at 8:11 PM, Shireen Purratheon said:

Looking at the map, I find myself surprised how far away Ib is from Skagos. The "strong admixture of Ibbenese blood" had always made me place them near each other in my mind, before really analyzing the map after reading this. Your Skagos connection makes a lot of sense here, with the Ibbenese migrating there overland over-ice (FTFY ).

Thank you, I do believe that this is the only plausible explanation for why Ib and the North share so many species.

On 17/06/2016 at 8:11 PM, Shireen Purratheon said:

It doesn't really make sense for Ibbenese to travel to Skagos in more recent years, given how far away it is and how similar it would be in terms of resources. There wouldn't be any incentive for a whaler to go all that way to get the exact same goods they could get at home.

I would explain this with the fact that this all took place many thousands of years ago, before Ib became an island and developed a whaling culture. The people who migrated from Ib to the North would have been the very first to ever move in that direction, possibly in the very dawn of humanity (think of our own history of crossing over to the Americas via the Bering Strait).

Of course this is only the barest bones of a future theory: when I write it up in full I will make sure I include more evidence, justification and real-world context!

 

On 17/06/2016 at 9:47 PM, Free Northman Reborn said:

I tend to favour the Skags as having giant blood, rather than Ibbenese blood, given that the World book seems to give us both options as equally plausible. Ibbenese are not large of stature, being short and squat. The size of the Skags leads me to view the giant hypothesis as being more likely. Plus giants occur far closer to Skagos than the Ibbenese are. Also, there seems to be some doubt as to the ability of Ibbenese to actually interbreed with humans on a large scale, whereas we know it is possible with giants.

I believe that the Ibbenese physical characteristics can be explained by thousands of years of relative isolation from the rest of humanity, resulting in genetic 'abnormalities' within the population. Even Yandal notes that populations in isolation can often show quite remarkable variations from what might be regarded as common. While of course in the real world such isolation does not result in an inability to interbreed, in Martin's world it does (proof of that being the Valyrians). The Skagosi being described as 'huge' may be a result of misinformation, another odd gene pool, outsiders only seeing the warriors, their wearing of big fur clothes, or any number of other reasons. 

My theory doesn't actually preclude the possibility that the Skagosi did mix with giants: I just didn't mention the possibility.

Also remember that giants actually migrated to Ib along with the Children in my hypothesis, eliminating the distance factor.

 

[NorthernXY]

I would say Westeros has never had an ice age, geologically speaking there's no evidence.  Take a look at the coasts of the American Pacific Northwest, Scotland, Iceland, and Norway.  Notice something?  You noticed fjords, you also notice those areas are covered in ice in your link.  Fjords are caused by glaciers moving through mountain passes; the North has a long mountain chain on its west coast; the North has no fjords when it should be littered with fjords if Westeros once had an ice age.  Glaciers that develop during long winters in Westeros melt too fast come spring to stay and carve out fjords through valleys, all coastlines on Planetos have the same amount of cragginess when the North should have it in spades while the southern coastlines a bit more trim because glaciers didn't carve through them.

There probably was one according to GRRM, he just doesn't understand science beyond simple genetics (his own admission he didn't realize the Wall would actually be a glacier and slowly creep downhill).

MoV, Ibbenese are Neanderthals, not the result of genetic experiments. Also in real life isolation does cause species to be unable to interbreed, that's the definition of species.  Valyrians can interbreed with other humans, they chose not to, if they did it long enough the Valyrians would eventually become an actual species and not a different civilization of humans.

 

 

[PrettyPig]

On 6/16/2016 at 8:15 AM, Maester of Valyria said:

One of the great mysteries of Ice and Fire is the existence of the Kingdom of the Ifeqevron (yes I know you can spell it 'Ifequevron' but this is how it's shown in the maps). Assuming (as seems apparent) that the Ifeqevron are kin to the Children of the Forest of Westeros, we are left with the daunting challenge of explaining the woods walkers' presence in Essos, given that the Children were (seemingly) never seafarers, and there doesn't appear to be any historical or archaeological evidence for them anywhere else in Essos (so they didn't migrate on foot). So, the mystery that we are left to solve is how the Children of the Forest travelled all the way from Westeros to one specific region of Essos. There has been much conjecture on this subject, but I have never seen one convincing, plausible theory (if there is one then I apologise – please send me a link).

I believe I may have found the a possible answer; and as a bonus it also covers the unicorns, mammoths, and even the Jhogwin.

This is a very interesting and very plausible theory (in my albeit limited opinion on TWOIAF lore) - although I realize we get the "ancient legends/because magic/who knows" handwave explanation regarding a good deal of the worldbuilding, it only stands to reason that the worldbuing is based off of real, actual, geological and human migration events.    The Children et al crossing an exposed land bridge to take advantage of new forestland, sure, why not?   Earth has certainly seen this before.  

I somehow missed your earlier theories, but I'm going to check them out - I've been developing a theory of my own elsewhere regarding Planetos' "Ring of Fire" and I'm interested to see if we're spotting the same things!

ETA:    Did a quick scan and yes, indeed we are!   Things that go boom...   I have taken my musings in a slightly different direction and even across the Narrow Sea, however, so if you are interested you're more than welcome to visit this thread and comment.   We've spotted nearly identical evidence on the Westeros side already.  

 

[Maester of Valyria]

20 hours ago, NorthernXY said:

I would say Westeros has never had an ice age, geologically speaking there's no evidence.  Take a look at the coasts of the American Pacific Northwest, Scotland, Iceland, and Norway.  Notice something?  You noticed fjords, you also notice those areas are covered in ice in your link.  Fjords are caused by glaciers moving through mountain passes; the North has a long mountain chain on its west coast; the North has no fjords when it should be littered with fjords if Westeros once had an ice age.  Glaciers that develop during long winters in Westeros melt too fast come spring to stay and carve out fjords through valleys, all coastlines on Planetos have the same amount of cragginess when the North should have it in spades while the southern coastlines a bit more trim because glaciers didn't carve through them.

There probably was one according to GRRM, he just doesn't understand science beyond simple genetics (his own admission he didn't realize the Wall would actually be a glacier and slowly creep downhill).

Westeros has almost certainly had at least one ice age in it's history, and this is supported by a large amount of geological evidence. Please check out this excellent page for some of it, and I would add that ice ages are standard parts of a planet's climatic cycle. I also go into a lot more detail in my previous theory, links to which are here and in my signature.

An ice age would have been far far longer than the average Planetos winter: many thousands of years at the very least. This is ample time for glaciers to form and carve out valleys, especially when you consider that the most recent ice age (disregarding the Long Night) would have been just the latest in a line of many stretching back into the ancient geological histories.

GRRM clearly does huge amounts of research when worldbuilding, and I think it would be hasty to claim that he is ignorant of geology when it plays such an important part in his world. As for the Wall: it is magical.

20 hours ago, NorthernXY said:

MoV, Ibbenese are Neanderthals, not the result of genetic experiments. Also in real life isolation does cause species to be unable to interbreed, that's the definition of species.  Valyrians can interbreed with other humans, they chose not to, if they did it long enough the Valyrians would eventually become an actual species and not a different civilization of humans.

I confess to some confusion here: I never claimed that the Ibbenese were genetic experiments. While I may have been somewhat hasty when I said in the real world such isolation does not result in an inability to interbreed, in Martin's world it does, this was just bad phrasing. What I meant was just that the Ibbenese seem to be the just a different race of humans, rather than a seperate species. I dislike the 'Ibbenese=Neanderthal' argument, as it takes little account of their intelligence or the fact that they are among the greatest sailors in the world (if Earth Neanderthals had been so proficient at sailing they would never have been made extinct by homo sapiens).

Valyrians can only interbreed haphazardly with 'normal' humans, if the Targaryens are anything to go by. You can argue back and forth about whether this is genetics or magic.

 

 

19 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

This is a very interesting and very plausible theory (in my albeit limited opinion on TWOIAF lore) - although I realize we get the "ancient legends/because magic/who knows" handwave explanation regarding a good deal of the worldbuilding, it only stands to reason that the worldbuing is based off of real, actual, geological and human migration events.    The Children et al crossing an exposed land bridge to take advantage of new forestland, sure, why not?   Earth has certainly seen this before.  

I somehow missed your earlier theories, but I'm going to check them out - I've been developing a theory of my own elsewhere regarding Planetos' "Ring of Fire" and I'm interested to see if we're spotting the same things!

ETA:    Did a quick scan and yes, indeed we are!   Things that go boom...   I have taken my musings in a slightly different direction and even across the Narrow Sea, however, so if you are interested you're more than welcome to visit this thread and comment.   We've spotted nearly identical evidence on the Westeros side already.  

 

Thank you for your praise! It's amazing what you can find if you apply some basic geographical knowledge. I'd be interested to hear what you think of my earlier theory as well.

I look forward to reading your thread, I'm sure it will be interesting. I limited myself mainly to the north of Westeros because that was where my theory was concerned, but I have actually been compiling evidence of tectonic activity worldwide. I'm afraid I don't have a House of Black and White account, but I would encourage you to post your theory here as well.

[RobbTheBoss]

1 hour ago, Maester of Valyria said:

Westeros has almost certainly had at least one ice a I dislike the 'Ibbenese=Neanderthal' argument, as it takes little account of their intelligence or the fact that they are among the greatest sailors in the world (if Earth Neanderthals had been so proficient at sailing they would never have been made extinct by homo sapiens).

Why would you assume that? Neanderthals had bigger brains and in some way were perhaps smarter than homo sapiens sapiens. They had some trouble building larger groups and societies. 

It is certain, that Neanderthals interbred with modern humans. 

[Maester of Valyria]

Just now, RobbTheBoss said:

Why would you assume that? Neanderthals had bigger brains and in some way were perhaps smarter than homo sapiens sapiens. They had some trouble building larger groups and societies. 

It is certain, that Neanderthals interbred with modern humans. 

This is a large part of intelligence: the ability to cooperate with others and form larger scale societies. While I don't believe Neanderthals weredumb as rocks, if they had been smarter than homo sapiens then we wouldn't have wiped them out, or at least they'd have spread further afield before we did.

I don't dispute the interbreeding part.

[NorthernXY]

MoV, not trying to be argumentative, but Martin's description of Ibbenese describe Neanderthals EXACTLY

Quote

Wiki: While some modern human nuclear DNA have been linked to the extinct Neanderthals, no mitochondrial DNA with Neanderthal origin have been detected,^[63] which in primates is always maternally transmitted. This observation has prompted the hypothesis that whereas female humans interbreeding with male Neanderthals were able to generate fertile offspring, the progeny of female Neanderthals who mated with male humans were either rare, absent or sterile.^[170] However, some researchers have argued that there is evidence of possible interbreeding between female Neanderthals and male modern humans.

Quote

Though the men of Ib can father children upon women of Westeros and other lands, the products of such unions are often malformed and inevitably sterile, in the manner of mules.  Ibbenses females, when mated with men from other races, bring forth naught but still births and monstrosities.

*Degrees in biochemistry and molecular biology.

I'm guessing they pretty much just reworded the Wiki for the World Book. 

Quote

Neanderthals made advanced tools,^[97] probably had a language (the nature of which is debated and likely unknowable) and lived in complex social groups.

Circumstantial evidence suggests Neanderthals may have been building some form of watercraft since the Middle Paleolithic.[103][104] Scientists have speculated that these watercraft may have been similar to dugout canoes, which are among the oldest known boats in the archaeological record.

 

Kind of chuckling because you completely neglected Earth's Ice Age and that Neanderthals were specially suited for it.  Homo sapiens are better suited for a warmer world so we won once the glaciers started receding and the Hn ability to withstand the cold better than Hs didn't really matter.

[Maester of Valyria]

6 hours ago, NorthernXY said:

MoV, not trying to be argumentative, but Martin's description of Ibbenese describe Neanderthals EXACTLY

Quote

Wiki: While some modern human nuclear DNA have been linked to the extinct Neanderthals, no mitochondrial DNA with Neanderthal origin have been detected,^[63] which in primates is always maternally transmitted. This observation has prompted the hypothesis that whereas female humans interbreeding with male Neanderthals were able to generate fertile offspring, the progeny of female Neanderthals who mated with male humans were either rare, absent or sterile.^[170] However, some researchers have argued that there is evidence of possible interbreeding between female Neanderthals and male modern humans.

Quote

Though the men of Ib can father children upon women of Westeros and other lands, the products of such unions are often malformed and inevitably sterile, in the manner of mules.  Ibbenses females, when mated with men from other races, bring forth naught but still births and monstrosities.

*Degrees in biochemistry and molecular biology.

I'm guessing they pretty much just reworded the Wiki for the World Book. 

I'm not saying that there aren't similarities, but the Ibbenese never seem to be able to have fertile offspring with 'normal' humans (unlike Neanderthals). I take the view that this is just a result of an isolated population obeying the laws of genetics in Martinworld.

I don't mean to imply you don't know your stuff, but I do believe that the Ibbenese=Neanderthals argument is by no means settled.

6 hours ago, NorthernXY said:

Quote

Neanderthals made advanced tools,^[97] probably had a language (the nature of which is debated and likely unknowable) and lived in complex social groups.

Circumstantial evidence suggests Neanderthals may have been building some form of watercraft since the Middle Paleolithic.[103][104] Scientists have speculated that these watercraft may have been similar to dugout canoes, which are among the oldest known boats in the archaeological record.

 

Kind of chuckling because you completely neglected Earth's Ice Age and that Neanderthals were specially suited for it.  Homo sapiens are better suited for a warmer world so we won once the glaciers started receding and the Hn ability to withstand the cold better than Hs didn't really matter.

I don't dispute any of what's in the quote box. However I will point out that there's a large difference between dugout canoes and seafaring, whale-hunting galleons.

Yes, the Neanderthals were better suited for cold conditions than we are today. However homo sapiens' intelligence meant that we continued to have an advantage when competing for resources. Once the glaciers started receding Hn's fate was sealed.

 

 

[Arry'sFleas]

On 17/06/2016 at 0:15 AM, Maester of Valyria said:

A Theory on the Ifeqevron

hey Maester of Valyria,

nice post and well presented!

just the thing i am looking at right now.

 

I like the idea of the land bridge and i will keep it in mind. Brilliant!

Remembering that the Sarne river is the craddle of civilisation, however, i believe the migration went from east to west. For the diminutive Ifeqevron, that is. I believe that they are not children of the forest, and that they actually landed in the Neck where another diminutive people lives since before the FM.

Presumably they were pushed out by the expansion of the Tall Men.

I also think the Hairy Men traveled in the same direction and for the same reason, and are found not only in Skagos but also in the northern tribes.

I won't elaborate much more as i am still researching and writing up and it takes time!

 

 

 

[Maester of Valyria]

On 12/08/2016 at 0:38 PM, Arry'sFleas said:

hey Maester of Valyria,

nice post and well presented!

just the thing i am looking at right now.

 

I like the idea of the land bridge and i will keep it in mind. Brilliant!

Remembering that the Sarne river is the craddle of civilisation, however, i believe the migration went from east to west. For the diminutive Ifeqevron, that is. I believe that they are not children of the forest, and that they actually landed in the Neck where another diminutive people lives since before the FM.

Presumably they were pushed out by the expansion of the Tall Men.

I also think the Hairy Men traveled in the same direction and for the same reason, and are found not only in Skagos but also in the northern tribes.

I won't elaborate much more as i am still researching and writing up and it takes time!

Hey, thanks for the praise!

I've often thought that the simplicity of a land bridge (or in this case an ice bridge!) means that many overlook the possibility. I believe that my idea of the polar ice cap providing a route for the Children/Ifeqevron has great potential- certainly I haven't seen another plausible explanation (but then I'm biased!)

 

I think we have to be cautious about declaring any one place the 'birthplace' of civilisation, especially since the landscape has changed dramatically in the intervening millennia (ie the dried-up Silver Sea).

I'm afraid I have to disagree with your idea about the direction of the Ifeqevron migration, partly because I think the crannogmen are human and it wouldn't seem feasible to introduce another non-human Westerosi species this late in the series. However, I look forward to hearing your take on the matter!

Ah, the Hairy Men and Tall Men. Both very interesting, and I intend to cover both more thoroughly in a future essay. But as you said, it takes time!

Thanks again for your feedback!

[Arry'sFleas]

13 hours ago, Maester of Valyria said:

I'm afraid I have to disagree with your idea about the direction of the Ifeqevron migration, partly because I think the crannogmen are human and it wouldn't seem feasible to introduce another non-human Westerosi species this late in the series.

oh yes, the crannogmen are humans but they are not 'First Men'. They are indeed very similar to the children. I have discussed them here.

I have been wondering for sometime from where they may come from since they are not FM, and i think the Ifqevron fit the bill.

As i learn more about the ancient history, i have come to believe they came from Essos. Perhaps even called/invited by a green dream originating from the children.

We do not have a description of the Ifqevron's number of fingers, so they mayor not be children. They were supposedly colonised by the Ibbs, Corys Velarion did find carved trees - a means of communication - and strange silences in their forests. I found no evidence of weirwoods in their forests, i may have missed that.

As for the craddle of civilisation, i just base myself on the WIF (aka World Book): the Silver Sea, the river Sarne seem to be a reasonable place for at least one centre, in the same way as Mesopotamia was the craddle of civilisation in the west.

 

[Maester of Valyria]

4 hours ago, Arry'sFleas said:

oh yes, the crannogmen are humans but they are not 'First Men'. They are indeed very similar to the children. I have discussed them here

An interesting article. My personal belief is that the crannogmen were First Men who perhaps interbred with the Children, certainly learned some of their magics, and definitely became very close to them.

4 hours ago, Arry'sFleas said:

I have been wondering for sometime from where they may come from since they are not FM, and i think the Ifqevron fit the bill.

As i learn more about the ancient history, i have come to believe they came from Essos. Perhaps even called/invited by a green dream originating from the children.

I think the evidence points quite firmly towards the Ifeqevron not being human, and probably being Children of the Forest. I'm also not sure about the possibility to greendreams providing Westeros to Essos communication, given the lack of weirwoods in Essos.

4 hours ago, Arry'sFleas said:

We do not have a description of the Ifqevron's number of fingers, so they mayor not be children. They were supposedly colonised by the Ibbs, Corys Velarion did find carved trees - a means of communication - and strange silences in their forests. I found no evidence of weirwoods in their forests, i may have missed that.

We can hardly expect a description of the Ifeqevron's hands when we are given so little information about them to start with. Annoyingly, this leaves it all open to speculation.

My reasoning for the carved trees and strange silences is all laid out in my main essay. I couldn't find any evidence of weirwoods either, which leads me to believe that the Children in Essos were unable to communicate with their Westerosi counterparts at all: they were cut off from the weirnet.

5 hours ago, Arry'sFleas said:

As for the craddle of civilisation, i just base myself on the WIF (aka World Book): the Silver Sea, the river Sarne seem to be a reasonable place for at least one centre, in the same way as Mesopotamia was the craddle of civilisation in the west.

Fair enough; I take the birthplace of civilisation as the Realm of the Fisher Queens, with people then spreading out to Ghis, Sarnor, Yi Ti, Andalos, etc.

[Arry'sFleas]

7 hours ago, Maester of Valyria said:

the crannogmen were First Men who perhaps interbred with the Children, certainly learned some of their magics, and definitely became very close to them.

i nearly came to that conclusion in my 'green men' post but stayed a bit on the fence.

What swayed me is the discovery of the Ifq. as it gave me an explanation to Jojen 's remark.' we remember the first men...'

 

7 hours ago, Maester of Valyria said:

I'm also not sure about the possibility to greendreams providing Westeros to Essos communication, given the lack of weirwoods in Essos.

Jojen has green dreams, they do not seem to be related to weirwoods.

As a parallel, wolf dreams require no weirwoods either, eg Arya in Braavos.

 

7 hours ago, Maester of Valyria said:

Fair enough; I take the birthplace of civilisation as the Realm of the Fisher Queens, with people then spreading out to Ghis, Sarnor, Yi Ti, Andalos, etc.

agreed, the Fisher Queen of the Silver sea, next door to the Sarne river.

 

 

[Falcon2908]

I love your theory! Do you think the Ifeqeveron were bothered by the invading humans?

[Maester of Valyria]

16 hours ago, Arry'sFleas said:

i nearly came to that conclusion in my 'green men' post but stayed a bit on the fence.

What swayed me is the discovery of the Ifq. as it gave me an explanation to Jojen 's remark.' we remember the first men...'

The full line is: "We remember the First Men in the Neck, and the children of the forest who were their friends . . . but so much is forgotten, and so much we never knew."

I take that as meaning that the crannogmen, now, remember the times when their First Men ancestors settled in the Neck. Talking about the First Men as a separate people from yourself seems common.

16 hours ago, Arry'sFleas said:

Jojen has green dreams, they do not seem to be related to weirwoods.

As a parallel, wolf dreams require no weirwoods either, eg Arya in Braavos.

Ah, my bad phrasing. I meant that communication between two people would seem to require weirwoods, as opposed to having prophetic dreams. Then again, I don't recall an instance when Jojen had a greendream when he wasn't near a weirwood.

Wolf dreams seem to be tied to the related but separate 'skill' of skinchanging, and so may not require proximity to a weirwood. That said, isn't there a weirwood in Braavos? On the Isle of the Gods maybe?

16 hours ago, Arry'sFleas said:

agreed, the Fisher Queen of the Silver sea, next door to the Sarne river.

Ah point, and the 'three great lakes' line would seem to put the Sea's former position in the north-west area of the now-Dothraki Sea.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

15 hours ago, Falcon2908 said:

I love your theory! Do you think the Ifeqeveron were bothered by the invading humans?

Thanks very much!

Which humans would you mean? The Ibbenese? I think a reason for their reclusiveness is some sort of connection to the Ifeqevron, even now. Perhaps there were some hostilities at first, but the two races may have reached an accord of some sort. I would also point out that the Children may have migrated to the area and subsequently died out before any humans settled in the area in large numbers: remember that this is all really ancient history! I lean away from the idea that the Ibbenese wiped the Ifeqevron out: there doesn't seem to be much evidence for such a conflict, and I quite like my own 'gradual decline, leading to mass suicide' theory (but then I'm biased!), although I accept that you can make a convincing argument either way.

As for the Dothraki, they are a young race and so the Ifeqevron were probably all gone by the time they started making incursions into the area.

 

[TheSovereignGrave]

36 minutes ago, Maester of Valyria said:

As for the Dothraki, they are a young race and so the Ifeqevron were probably all gone by the time they started making incursions into the area.

 

If that was true, then we'd know them by a different name. Ifequevron is what the Dothaki called them, and the Dothraki are said to shun their "Kingdom" either out of reverence or fear of them.

[Maester of Valyria]

On 15/08/2016 at 6:47 PM, TheSovereignGrave said:

If that was true, then we'd know them by a different name. Ifequevron is what the Dothaki called them, and the Dothraki are said to shun their "Kingdom" either out of reverence or fear of them.

The Dothraki are a young race:

Quote

...the Dothraki are a young race, and it was only since the Doom destroyed Valyria that their khalasars came to dominate these lands, sweeping out of the east with fire and steel to conquer and destroy the ancient cities that once thrived here and carrying off their peoples into bondage.

The reason that we use the Dothraki name for the Essosi Children may be because the Citadel only learned of the Ifeqevron after the Dothraki became extant.

In addition, the Dothraki may well have been mindful of the legends already surrounding the forests when they arrived in that part of Essos, or perhaps a few of the crones had a vision warning them to stay away. It may be that they just didn't like the forest due to its haunted feel, and so decided to stay away.