Reek

[Ser Joe of Generic Hall]

Hi everyone, first post. I am a fan of the Song of Ice and Fire books, and only loosely follow the show.  

My question is about the original Reek (before Theon). I may be in left field, but go easy.  My first impression is that Reek is Domeric Bolton. Although, Roose implies that he was a stable boy or something. I don't know if that's a lie or if the original Reek was replaced with Domeric (much like Theon took Reek's place). However, I believe that Domeric was the Reek that was executed by Cassel because his similarity to Ramsay made Rodrik mistake the two. Knowing that Qyburn was the former Maester of the Dreadfort, I also believe that Domeric/Reek was already dead when he was executed.

So, my question is whether or not Reek was a series of unfortunate victims or was it just one person prior to Theon?

[Lord Cactus]

First of all, welcome!

Second, this is a pretty interesting idea. It would explain the reasoning behind why the original reek always continuously smelled, being that he was already dead.

Certainly thought provoking, Ser Joe!

[Warsaw]

Sorry, but Qyburn was never in the Dreadfort. Besides, he said that his experiments had been a failure before. I think. So no to the Qyburn part.

Hope this helps:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Reek

There are more details about who Reek was. Also, I don't remember when Domeric died, but hadn't it been years before this? I might be mistaken.

[tugela]

IIRC, it went something like this:

The original Reek was Ramsey's manservant. When he was fleeing from Cassels men, Ramsey switched clothes with him, and told him to ride off. Ramsey then smeared himself with excrement (they had been hunting a girl, and had just killed her when Cassel approached). Reek was then killed by Cassel, who took Ramsey (who was pretending to be Reek) as a prisoner back to Winterfell, and that is where Theon met him when he seized Winterfell. Theon did not know that he was Ramsey and gradually began to trust him. When Winterfell was besieged by Cassel, Ramsey rode off to the Dreadfort to get help, returned and defeated Cassel, then seized Theon, who he turned into a new "Reek".

[Ser Joe of Generic Hall]

Sorry for the late reply guys. I didn't realize there would be such an immediate response.  

I may have jumped to conclusions with Qyburn, but he was definitely employed by the Boltons prior to the War of Five Kings because he was introduced to Harrenhal by Roose. He was a "former Maester" and it does not say how long he has been with Roose.  There is a lot of guessing and assumption involved with his pre-Harrenhal history. 

As far as Reek is concerned, I find it hard to believe that Rodrik Cassel could not distinguish between Ramsay Snow and Reek. Ramsay is, by all accounts, the most infamous bastard in the North (aside from Jon). Unless that Reek had Bolton features, it might have been more difficult for Ramsay to pull off the switch. This is the main reason why I believe that particular Reek was Domeric. Of course, this may be a red herring.

According to the wiki that Warsaw posted, Domeric died in 297, the year before Jon Arryn died. This would make my Domeric theory possible only if Reek is a series of unfortunate victims. The wiki also states that he pracitces necrophilia. Therefore, I do believe that original Reek was already dead. As Lord Cactus said, this would explain why Reek smelled horrible. 

[YOVMO]

30 minutes ago, Ser Joe of Generic Hall said:

I find it hard to believe that Rodrik Cassel could not distinguish between Ramsay Snow and Reek.

I think this is kind of the point of the reek disguise. A knight, even one as decent and amiable as Rodrik Cassel, would not have spent 2 seconds looking at Reek. Presumably, if you put jon snow in a pile of dung for a few years and didn't even let him bathe and dressed him up like a westerosi hobo and put him behind a famous Lord's son who tangentially introduced him as "reek" even Ser Rodrik wouldn't notice him.

 

 

[UnViserion]

I thought I read once that Reek's condition has a legitimate, real world name? 

I don't think Reek = Domeric. 

[gregg22]

Welcome, always fun to explore true identities.

In this case it seems unlikely, since Roose recalls Reek before he was Ramsay's pet. He was "normal" except for the stench that could not be bathed away. Roose actually sent Reek to Ramsay.

Who Reek originally was is still interesting.

[Dorian Martell]

On 6/16/2016 at 6:08 PM, Ser Joe of Generic Hall said:

Hi everyone, first post. I am a fan of the Song of Ice and Fire books, and only loosely follow the show.  

My question is about the original Reek (before Theon). I may be in left field, but go easy.  My first impression is that Reek is Domeric Bolton. Although, Roose implies that he was a stable boy or something. I don't know if that's a lie or if the original Reek was replaced with Domeric (much like Theon took Reek's place). However, I believe that Domeric was the Reek that was executed by Cassel because his similarity to Ramsay made Rodrik mistake the two. Knowing that Qyburn was the former Maester of the Dreadfort, I also believe that Domeric/Reek was already dead when he was executed.

So, my question is whether or not Reek was a series of unfortunate victims or was it just one person prior to Theon?

Reread the books carefully. your question will answer itself 

[Ser Joe of Generic Hall]

Domeric is such an obscure character. He totally throws off the rest of the Boltons. He is often compared to Lyanna, for his ability to ride horses well.  The way he is described is almost the polar opposite demeanor from Roose, and Ramsey for that matter. I don't even think Domeric was actually Roose's child at all and probably actually a bastard like Joffrey Baratheon. I don't see why either Roose or Ramsay would even want him around. They probably jointly conspired his demise. Killing him and making him Ramsay's plaything seems so ... appropriate. His name even sounds like Reek; DomeReek?

[BalerionTheCat]

It is about impossible, read what Roose told Theon about Ramsey and Reek. Roose and everyone would know Reek from Domeric. But it's always amazing to me, how far we can play the game "and if this nobody was someone else we believed was dead".

There is speculation Domeric was Ned and Lyanna's brother, Brandon's bastard. Would explain the skill with horses.

[CJ McLannister]

On 6/19/2016 at 9:21 AM, BalerionTheCat said:

There is speculation Domeric was Ned and Lyanna's brother, Brandon's bastard. Would explain the skill with horses.

That comma threw me off.  Are you suggesting Brandon got Roose's wife pregnant while they were married?  That might give some more explanation to why Roose was not a fan of the Starks.  Roose's wife was related to Lady Dustin, who we know Brandon fooled around with, so it's... plausible.

[aryagonnakill#2]

On ‎6‎/‎18‎/‎2016 at 9:12 PM, Ser Joe of Generic Hall said:

Sorry for the late reply guys. I didn't realize there would be such an immediate response.  

I may have jumped to conclusions with Qyburn, but he was definitely employed by the Boltons prior to the War of Five Kings because he was introduced to Harrenhal by Roose. He was a "former Maester" and it does not say how long he has been with Roose.  There is a lot of guessing and assumption involved with his pre-Harrenhal history. 

As far as Reek is concerned, I find it hard to believe that Rodrik Cassel could not distinguish between Ramsay Snow and Reek. Ramsay is, by all accounts, the most infamous bastard in the North (aside from Jon). Unless that Reek had Bolton features, it might have been more difficult for Ramsay to pull off the switch. This is the main reason why I believe that particular Reek was Domeric. Of course, this may be a red herring.

According to the wiki that Warsaw posted, Domeric died in 297, the year before Jon Arryn died. This would make my Domeric theory possible only if Reek is a series of unfortunate victims. The wiki also states that he pracitces necrophilia. Therefore, I do believe that original Reek was already dead. As Lord Cactus said, this would explain why Reek smelled horrible. 

Qyburn was working for the brave companions, I think that was the name of the sellsword company that captured Jaime.  They were originally hired by Tywin but switched sides when Robb kept winning battles.  When they brought him to Harrenhall Roose had a hell of a lot more than 100 men so he took control and ordered Qyburn to go with Jaime to make sure he stayed alive.

[BalerionTheCat]

8 hours ago, CJ McLannister said:

That comma threw me off.  Are you suggesting Brandon got Roose's wife pregnant while they were married?  That might give some more explanation to why Roose was not a fan of the Starks.  Roose's wife was related to Lady Dustin, who we know Brandon fooled around with, so it's... plausible.

Brandon had a reputation with women. It would not be out of character. GRRM said Brandon had no son. So it is more or less invalidating the speculation. But maybe he didn't mean bastard, only true son, or acknowledged bastards. Anyway, even if true it has no real importance I can see.

[Sourjapes]

On 6/18/2016 at 9:38 PM, Ser Joe of Generic Hall said:

Domeric is such an obscure character. He totally throws off the rest of the Boltons. He is often compared to Lyanna, for his ability to ride horses well.  The way he is described is almost the polar opposite demeanor from Roose, and Ramsey for that matter. I don't even think Domeric was actually Roose's child at all and probably actually a bastard like Joffrey Baratheon. I don't see why either Roose or Ramsay would even want him around. They probably jointly conspired his demise. Killing him and making him Ramsay's plaything seems so ... appropriate. His name even sounds like Reek; DomeReek?

I don't see why Roose would have any distaste for Domeric. Certainly Domeric would have been a preferable heir compared to Ramsay. Assuming he really was Roose's son, of-course (which we have no evidence he wasn't). From the sound of it Domeric was a skilled rider and jouster and also well educated.

 

Lady Dustin says that Roose never grieves, but I think he might. To me I've always read the way he describes Domeric to Theon, that he even bothers to talk about him at all, is Roose reminiscing about his lost son. In public Roose certainly comes across as cold and unfeeling but in this interactions with Ramsay and Theon in private he seems quite normal to me (though an asshole), and certainly emotional.

[Jaime4Brienne]

On 6/17/2016 at 2:19 AM, Lord Cactus said:

First of all, welcome!

Second, this is a pretty interesting idea. It would explain the reasoning behind why the original reek always continuously smelled, being that he was already dead.

Certainly thought provoking, Ser Joe!

I just read a chapter with Reek and he didn't always smell. Theon made him bathe and said he smelled like soap afterwords.

[GoWesteros]

I like the idea of Domeric being the original Reek. It's A cool twist and I would welcome it. However if Domeric was one of Qyburn's experiments and was 'dead' therefor smelling, then wouldn't we get that with Ser Robert Strong? I don't have the books on hand, I couldn't tell you just now if we hear of Strong smelling at all. I would think A precedent would be set with that. 

Cool idea though!

[TheSamsa]

34 minutes ago, Jaime4Brienne said:

I just read a chapter with Reek and he didn't always smell. Theon made him bathe and said he smelled like soap afterwords.

Because that wasn't the original Reek. It was Ramsay posing as Reek

[Jaime4Brienne]

17 minutes ago, TheSamsa said:

Because that wasn't the original Reek. It was Ramsay posing as Reek

Ha...oh yeah. I'm doing a re-read and I hadn't gotten to that reveal again. You're so right, I'd totally forgotten that.

[Eden-Mackenzie]

On June 18, 2016 at 11:38 PM, Ser Joe of Generic Hall said:

Domeric is such an obscure character. He totally throws off the rest of the Boltons. He is often compared to Lyanna, for his ability to ride horses well.  The way he is described is almost the polar opposite demeanor from Roose, and Ramsey for that matter. I don't even think Domeric was actually Roose's child at all and probably actually a bastard like Joffrey Baratheon. I don't see why either Roose or Ramsay would even want him around. They probably jointly conspired his demise. Killing him and making him Ramsay's plaything seems so ... appropriate. His name even sounds like Reek; DomeReek?

The rest of the Boltons meaning Roose and Ramsay? Because I would say Ramsay is the one who skews the Boltons, and without even three full characters we really know nothing about "the Boltons." Reread the descriptions we have of Roose, Domeric, and Ramsay. Looks-wise,  Ramsay does have the pale Bolton eyes, but that is it; temperament-wise, he is even less like Roose, whereas the descriptions of Roose and Domeric have several similarities.

Domeric's mother was a Ryswell, her father raises horses, their sigil is a horse's head; it seems likely his skill with horses came from her, although Roose is not an inept horseman himself. 

Reek, reek it rhymes with ... Domeric? No. But Ramsay as Reek tells Theon his given name is Heke, which does rhyme with Reek. Theon never showed a propensity for rhyming prior to his becoming Reek, but rather "the Reek, reek it rhymes with sneak/weak/meek" sounds like childhood taunting, which easily could have started as "Heke, Heke it rhymes with reek." As delightful an adult Ramsay is, I can only imagine he was just super considerate and compassionate as a boy.

On June 18, 2016 at 8:12 PM, Ser Joe of Generic Hall said:

Sorry for the late reply guys. I didn't realize there would be such an immediate response.  

I may have jumped to conclusions with Qyburn, but he was definitely employed by the Boltons prior to the War of Five Kings because he was introduced to Harrenhal by Roose. He was a "former Maester" and it does not say how long he has been with Roose.  There is a lot of guessing and assumption involved with his pre-Harrenhal history. 

As far as Reek is concerned, I find it hard to believe that Rodrik Cassel could not distinguish between Ramsay Snow and Reek. Ramsay is, by all accounts, the most infamous bastard in the North (aside from Jon). Unless that Reek had Bolton features, it might have been more difficult for Ramsay to pull off the switch. This is the main reason why I believe that particular Reek was Domeric. Of course, this may be a red herring.

According to the wiki that Warsaw posted, Domeric died in 297, the year before Jon Arryn died. This would make my Domeric theory possible only if Reek is a series of unfortunate victims. The wiki also states that he pracitces necrophilia. Therefore, I do believe that original Reek was already dead. As Lord Cactus said, this would explain why Reek smelled horrible. 

Qyburn was never "with Roose" - after being kicked out of the Citadel and stripped of his chain for his experimenting, he joined the Bloody Mummers, Vargo Hoat's Brave Compamions. Roose inherited Qyburn when he took Harrenhal, and promptly sent him away. Or, Qyburn chose to leave Harrenhal for King's Landing and take his chances at court, rather than remain in the Riverlands or head North and risk reentering the war.

Do we have any indication there was a reasonable expectation Rodrik Cassel, or any other non-Dreadfort man, would have been able to recognize Ramsay by sight? Anything to suggest Rodrik had known or even met Ramsay? His actions may have earned him a terrible reputation, but that does not mean his face was well known. Also, Ramsay gave Reek his clothes and ring - Ramsay wanted Reek to be mistaken for him, which means Ramsay thought it was likely to work. 

How do you make the leap from Reek having sex with corpses to Reek being a corpse himself? When Tyrion sends Bronn find him a prostitute, he makes sure Bronn will tell whomever he procures that Tyrion is a dwarf, because he does not like seeing the looks on their faces when they are not aware. Reek could prefer sex with dead women for the same reason - dead bodies do not react to awful smells with revulsion and disgust. The few undead we have seen have yet to display any interest in sex. 

4 hours ago, GoWesteros said:

I like the idea of Domeric being the original Reek. It's A cool twist and I would welcome it. However if Domeric was one of Qyburn's experiments and was 'dead' therefor smelling, then wouldn't we get that with Ser Robert Strong? I don't have the books on hand, I couldn't tell you just now if we hear of Strong smelling at all. I would think A precedent would be set with that. 

Cool idea though!

Qyburn first met Roose at Harrenhal, he had been with the Bloody Mummers since his expulsion from the Citadel, he was never at the Dreadfort, he had nothing to do with Domeric, who died at least a year prior to the start of the series. Roose did send some of his own men with Jaime to King's Landing, led by Steelshanks Walton, and they later returned to the North with poor Jeyne Poole, but those men were Dreadfort men from the onset, and completely unrelated to Qyburn. 

The only oddities mentioned regarding Robert Strong are related to his head: he does not speak, he never removes his helm, he neither eats nor drinks (and subsequently never visits the privy). There is no mention of an odor, which Roose tells plagued Reek all his life, and there is no mention of Reek not speaking, never showing his face, or never eating or drinking.