Is The Battle of the Bastards really just Stannis' battle at Winterfell?

[chandl34]

I think Jon's story here is all Stannis.  The show wildlings are filling in for the book northern houses.  We'll see what Jon will actually do in the books next season, merged with some more Stannis story.

[zorkman]

I would laugh if Martin completely ignores what is in the show, & the characters they killed of have significant roles in the books. Make more sense, than some of the ridiculous plot lines in the show. Particularly how they manage to beam in to places which would take weeks/months to get to in reality.

[Smoke317]

What about Dany's vision of battling a blue eyed king with a flaming sword who cast no shadow on the trident (Stannis)???  Does this mean that Dany must eventually face Stannis?  Or if this blue eyed King isn't Stannis then who could it be?

[Ruhail]

2 hours ago, Smoke317 said:

What about Dany's vision of battling a blue eyed king with a flaming sword who cast no shadow on the trident (Stannis)???  Does this mean that Dany must eventually face Dany?  Or if this blue eyed King isn't Stannis then who could it be?

I dont see who else it could be 

[Smoke317]

41 minutes ago, Ruhail said:

I dont see who else it could be 

Could the Blue eyed King be the Night's King?  But where would he get the glowing sword?

[Ruhail]

7 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

Could the Blue eyed King be the Night's King?  But where would he get the glowing sword?

Interesting idea but I think too many things about it suggest Stannis:

1) Raised a glowing red sword in sunset - taking Melly's LB 

2) Blue eyed - All Baratheon's are noted for their large build, coarse black hair and blue eyes

3) Cast no shadow - Mel using Stannis' kings blood for shadow magic also drains alot of his life force

4) A king - these factors compiled together suggest its Stannis

5) Slayer of lies prophercy - hes in there since Mel uncorrectly champions him as Azor Ahai which will be debunked later when the real one turns up

[TinfoilToolate]

Oh Stannis...where to start? Many of our fellow forum posters like to predict and speculate based on personal bias. Its hard to separate bias from logic, but I'll do my best in my contribution to this topic.

First, to address the original question, my answer is "yes." We know the show and its directors had a poor opinion and display of his characters. Had i not read the books, id agree that Stannis is a stubbon, miserable cant. But give the show more credit gals and guys. They all knew from day 1 that the show would wrap up before the books. This became clearly evident by season 3, and i strongly believe that is why we started seeing minor and then major deviations from the books. Its all precalculated so to not spoil the readers from the books. I like to call it the "Daryl Dixon Complex," which refers to the show existence of a character who isn't in the comics of the walking dead. Because of not only his existence, but his effectiveness, it completely changes other character dynamics, and in a character driven plot, one person can change everything. But i digress.

You really cant compare show Stannis to book Stannis, especially during his March on Winterfell.   He loses the majority of his men when he burns his own daughter alive. Book Stannis would never do this. Furthermore we have Davos gathering support from the Manderlys, who may have been mentioned in passing once in 6 seasons? Davos spent most of an entire book in White Harbor. 

 

I think the show has made deliberate deviations BECAUSE Stannis has a bigger role to play in the books. I think his or Shireens role in the books will serve to remind us that even Westerosi history repeats itself (a common theme in the story). The Baratheons were put into power as the Targaryens second in command. Having a Baratheons support Daenarys when she arrives, along with the Martels and the Starks will be more than enough regional influence to return things to the way they were before the reign of Robert and the disastrous repercussions it brought. 

[nothatso]

I think it's entirely plausible that Stannis loses the battle at Winterfell in TWoW, but survives and retreats back to The Wall. If that happens, and Sansa is moving north with the Vale army, then the book and show stories aren't that far off from being reconciled (more or less).

[UnViserion]

I don't think so. I think Stannis' battle goes down very differently and he actually claims Winterfell only to perish later. 

In the books it is inferred that the holes in the ice from fishing (covered by the heavy snows) will play a part in the battle to come. 

[zorkman]

9 hours ago, nothatso said:

I think it's entirely plausible that Stannis loses the battle at Winterfell in TWoW, but survives and retreats back to The Wall. If that happens, and Sansa is moving north with the Vale army, then the book and show stories aren't that far off from being reconciled (more or less).

What she is going to march half the country in winter time. Stannis army is struggling to survive the conditions just camped outside Winterfall

[Mordos_Kull]

I really wouldn't be surprised if Season 6 Jon is Book 6 Stannis. This Battle is almost certainly D&D's version of The Battle of Ice. I really can't see the book having 2 Winterfell Battles.

 

I really hope Stannis does live long enough to face Dany, I don't abide by this idea that his character is going to be dying swiftly in the books, as D&D were clearly not fans of his, and wanted to give Jon something to do this season (plus there's a lot of fanfic scenarios being played out in this show, so i'm not surprised they felt a "Battle of Bastards" would be more exciting than Stannis vs Roose.)

 

I don't know how the battle will play out in the book, but i'm pretty sure everyone knows how the show battle will play out.

 

S2 Battle - Overwhelmed odds crushed by late arrival of Tywin/Loras army

S4 Battle - Overwhelmed odds crushed by late arrival of Stannis army

S6 Battle - Overwhelmed odds crushed by late arrival of LF army

 

I really hope they don't follow this formula and add an extra surprise, but at this stage of the show, D&D are anything but subtle...

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Mordos_Kull said:

I really wouldn't be surprised if Season 6 Jon is Book 6 Stannis. This Battle is almost certainly D&D's version of The Battle of Ice. I really can't see the book having 2 Winterfell Battles.

 

I really hope Stannis does live long enough to face Dany, I don't abide by this idea that his character is going to be dying swiftly in the books, as D&D were clearly not fans of his, and wanted to give Jon something to do this season (plus there's a lot of fanfic scenarios being played out in this show, so i'm not surprised they felt a "Battle of Bastards" would be more exciting than Stannis vs Roose.)

 

I don't know how the battle will play out in the book, but i'm pretty sure everyone knows how the show battle will play out.

 

S2 Battle - Overwhelmed odds crushed by late arrival of Tywin/Loras army

S4 Battle - Overwhelmed odds crushed by late arrival of Stannis army

S6 Battle - Overwhelmed odds crushed by late arrival of LF army

 

I really hope they don't follow this formula and add an extra surprise, but at this stage of the show, D&D are anything but subtle...

Don't, you'll only be setting yourself up for disappointment. That's exactly how it will play out. 

[Kytheros]

Between Teleporting/Fast Travel and Arya "going home", it's technically possible that she goes home by way of White Harbor and sends the Manderlys to help Jon and Sansa.

Or the Manderlys show up in response to the raven messages sent by Jon and Sansa.

[Ingelheim]

I think people are forgetting something: what if this battle belongs to Sansa, and not Jon?

I'm 100% sure Book Sansa will end up going back to the North. Probably with the Vale army. The exact same situation happens on the Show right now, although LF is the only pulling the strings here, he has the Vale army.

What if this battle is just the Show version of Sansa vs Stannis of the books? I just can't see Stannis losing the Battle of Ice to the Boltons. But I'm also sure Stannis will die soon after the battle ends. And I think he will die facing LF and the Vale army.

Just some theory I've been thinking about lately.

[Lord_Ravenstone]

On June 17, 2016 at 7:26 AM, Essan said:

Aye, I think the most likely scenario is that Stannis dies during/after the battle.  This leads Jon to go to Winterfell (once he has been ressurected) to take charge there, having been freed of his NW vows.

(And Stannis's death probably leads to Selyse & Mel sacrificing Shireen - which may or may not be the cause of Jon's ressurection (I am hoping it's not) )
 

What's with this obsession of being freed of his vows?

Jon broke his vows already. He's free in so much as he's an oathbreaker 

[Lord_Ravenstone]

8 hours ago, Ingelheim said:

I think people are forgetting something: what if this battle belongs to Sansa, and not Jon?

I'm 100% sure Book Sansa will end up going back to the North. Probably with the Vale army. The exact same situation happens on the Show right now, although LF is the only pulling the strings here, he has the Vale army.

What if this battle is just the Show version of Sansa vs Stannis of the books? I just can't see Stannis losing the Battle of Ice to the Boltons. But I'm also sure Stannis will die soon after the battle ends. And I think he will die facing LF and the Vale army.

Just some theory I've been thinking about lately.

My theory as well although I'd say Sansa and LF go to Winterfell to fight Stannis for it and then the Others show up 

[Jedi Renee]

On 19/06/2016 at 4:18 AM, zorkman said:

I would laugh if Martin completely ignores what is in the show, & the characters they killed of have significant roles in the books. Make more sense, than some of the ridiculous plot lines in the show. Particularly how they manage to beam in to places which would take weeks/months to get to in reality.

Agree :^)

On 19/06/2016 at 8:00 AM, Smoke317 said:

What about Dany's vision of battling a blue eyed king with a flaming sword who cast no shadow on the trident (Stannis)???  Does this mean that Dany must eventually face Stannis?  Or if this blue eyed King isn't Stannis then who could it be?

Yes I think this could play out

On 19/06/2016 at 11:36 AM, TinfoilToolate said:

Oh Stannis...where to start? Many of our fellow forum posters like to predict and speculate based on personal bias. Its hard to separate bias from logic, but I'll do my best in my contribution to this topic.

First, to address the original question, my answer is "yes." We know the show and its directors had a poor opinion and display of his characters. Had i not read the books, id agree that Stannis is a stubbon, miserable cant. But give the show more credit gals and guys. They all knew from day 1 that the show would wrap up before the books. This became clearly evident by season 3, and i strongly believe that is why we started seeing minor and then major deviations from the books. Its all precalculated so to not spoil the readers from the books. I like to call it the "Daryl Dixon Complex," which refers to the show existence of a character who isn't in the comics of the walking dead. Because of not only his existence, but his effectiveness, it completely changes other character dynamics, and in a character driven plot, one person can change everything. But i digress.

You really cant compare show Stannis to book Stannis, especially during his March on Winterfell.   He loses the majority of his men when he burns his own daughter alive. Book Stannis would never do this. Furthermore we have Davos gathering support from the Manderlys, who may have been mentioned in passing once in 6 seasons? Davos spent most of an entire book in White Harbor. 

 

I think the show has made deliberate deviations BECAUSE Stannis has a bigger role to play in the books. I think his or Shireens role in the books will serve to remind us that even Westerosi history repeats itself (a common theme in the story). The Baratheons were put into power as the Targaryens second in command. Having a Baratheons support Daenarys when she arrives, along with the Martels and the Starks will be more than enough regional influence to return things to the way they were before the reign of Robert and the disastrous repercussions it brought. 

Great post :3

[evilspread]

Doubt any of this happens in the books. If Grrm's narrative goal was to release Jon from his vows then he'd have accepted Stannis' offer of such instead of going through a "death - resurrection"  process that otherwise achieves nothing. I suspect Jon's post-death story-line will look north of the Wall and Stannis, having taken Winterfell, will have to deal with the collapse of the Wall and the oncoming White Walkers, which in his desperation will lead to the burning of Shireen in an attempt to save Westeros. 

[ivosan]

Season 5 was very slow.  Either the producers were hoping for GRRM to publish TWoW, or they were waging on HBO approving several additional seasons.

Season 6 has been fast paced.  I understand HBO made them aware that there are, at best, 2 seasons left.  And it is possible that they were asked to cut the independent plots to a minimum.

Hence the 'wrapping up'  sensation of this season

[Kytheros]

On 6/20/2016 at 7:41 PM, ivosan said:

Season 5 was very slow.  Either the producers were hoping for GRRM to publish TWoW, or they were waging on HBO approving several additional seasons.

Season 6 has been fast paced.  I understand HBO made them aware that there are, at best, 2 seasons left.  And it is possible that they were asked to cut the independent plots to a minimum.

Hence the 'wrapping up'  sensation of this season

I'm pretty sure it's the other way around - that HBO wanted a full 10 seasons of Game of Thrones and B&W are the ones who are truncating things.