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Careerchat II


Inigima

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12 hours ago, Starkess said:

That's awesome, Lany, congrats! I've never been in a position that offers a bonus, sounds pretty sweet. :)

Thanks. The only bonus I've ever had before was for re-enlisting in the army, so this is pretty exciting.

11 hours ago, Xray the Enforcer said:

congratulations Lany!

Thank you!

9 hours ago, Iskaral Pust said:

Congrats Lany, it sounds like it was well earned.  I'm glad the new job is still going well. 

Thanks.  It has certainly been an interesting year.

 

I tried to put this on top, but the quotes won't let me, so forgive the bold & color ;) 

I wanted to thank everyone for all the support and advice when I was agonizing over not taking the low paying (but sure thing) job and holding out for this one. Obviously it was the right choice, but I had no way of knowing that when I was having all those sleepless nights and major anxiety attacks. Love you guys!

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So, I (probably the most career-planning-clueless person on this board) have a bit of a dilemma. I am a recent graduate in a part-time unpaid (but partly sholarshipped) internship that I, well, dislike and that disappoints me. Today my supervisor/boss/whatever they are asked me if I want to do another thing for them - I would stay an hour or two after my work there for as long as it takes me to do whatever they want me to do (no longer than a month). The work, as I understand it, would be monotonous and not particularly intellectually challenging, nor something important to put on a CV (at least for my desired future path).

But it would be paid. And not badly either - in fact, more than I earned on an hourly basis before (but that was in another country with different standards, so not really a fair comparison).

I guess I am just rambling around the question ... do I want to sacrifice some more of my time for an institution I don't really believe in, knowing I will probably regret that decision and be miserable doing it, just for the chance to earn something? I have next to no experience in choosing for whom, when, and how I work, and I can be looking forward to at least a few months of happy unemployment as every recent graduate does, so I just do not believe I can be particularly picky - but then I just don't want to do it.

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Got a job interview for a full time tour guide role with a pretty prestigious company but it's a ''group interview'' where i need to prepare a 60 second talk on any subject and be ready to partake in a group activity? I'm really excited because I really want this job for many reasons and I feel I'm totally qualified and ideal for it but unsure what to expect or what to wear. It's also difficult to come up with a coherent, interesting thing to say in 60 seconds that has a beginning, a middle and an end but either way i'm really excited and just needed to post about it because I can't put it on facebook as my current employers/workmates are on there :o 

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1 hour ago, Buckwheat said:

So, I (probably the most career-planning-clueless person on this board) have a bit of a dilemma. I am a recent graduate in a part-time unpaid (but partly sholarshipped) internship that I, well, dislike and that disappoints me. Today my supervisor/boss/whatever they are asked me if I want to do another thing for them - I would stay an hour or two after my work there for as long as it takes me to do whatever they want me to do (no longer than a month). The work, as I understand it, would be monotonous and not particularly intellectually challenging, nor something important to put on a CV (at least for my desired future path).

But it would be paid. And not badly either - in fact, more than I earned on an hourly basis before (but that was in another country with different standards, so not really a fair comparison).

I guess I am just rambling around the question ... do I want to sacrifice some more of my time for an institution I don't really believe in, knowing I will probably regret that decision and be miserable doing it, just for the chance to earn something? I have next to no experience in choosing for whom, when, and how I work, and I can be looking forward to at least a few months of happy unemployment as every recent graduate does, so I just do not believe I can be particularly picky - but then I just don't want to do it.

How necessary is the money? Very? then there's no question about staying.

Somewhat? Would the time you spent at work be better if you were spending it looking for something you'd like better? If you wouldn't spend that time to look for work anyway, just suck it up. A month is a short time, and a little extra money is always nice.

 

Even interesting/challenging jobs can have periods of boring monotonous work.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Buckwheat said:

So, I (probably the most career-planning-clueless person on this board) have a bit of a dilemma. I am a recent graduate in a part-time unpaid (but partly sholarshipped) internship that I, well, dislike and that disappoints me. Today my supervisor/boss/whatever they are asked me if I want to do another thing for them - I would stay an hour or two after my work there for as long as it takes me to do whatever they want me to do (no longer than a month). The work, as I understand it, would be monotonous and not particularly intellectually challenging, nor something important to put on a CV (at least for my desired future path).

But it would be paid. And not badly either - in fact, more than I earned on an hourly basis before (but that was in another country with different standards, so not really a fair comparison).

I guess I am just rambling around the question ... do I want to sacrifice some more of my time for an institution I don't really believe in, knowing I will probably regret that decision and be miserable doing it, just for the chance to earn something? I have next to no experience in choosing for whom, when, and how I work, and I can be looking forward to at least a few months of happy unemployment as every recent graduate does, so I just do not believe I can be particularly picky - but then I just don't want to do it.

You are aware that you are not getting the title of the most career-planning-clueless person on this board without a fight? :P I had no idea what I'd like to study in college, so I picked it by crossing the stuff I didn't want to study or didn't think I'd be good at off the list. Ended up with electrical engineering, of all things. Then I enrolled college with a plan to major in communications or maybe electronics, ended up majoring in computer science. As I got close to graduation, I applied for an Android app developer position in a company a friend from college worked for, ended up in an iOS app developer position at that company. Come to think of it, I got news I got that first job an hour or two after graduation, so I didn't even get to experience those few months of happy unemployment you mention.

Regarding the boring job that won't lead anywhere but is paid, I'd agree with @Lany Freelove Cassandra. Go for it. You have nothing to lose, it's an extra hour or two per day for a month. How bad can it be? Worst case scenario, you'd spend a bit of time but get some money. Who knows, maybe it would lead to something more to your liking, either with the company you're at at the moment, or somewhere else.

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1 hour ago, Buckwheat said:

So, I (probably the most career-planning-clueless person on this board) have a bit of a dilemma....

You have what HR consultants like to call extremely low engagement.  I doubt you'll enjoy the OT unless you're broke.  But it sounds like you have a more holistic dilemma ahead.  I'd suggest that you need to step back and think about what you expect from work and career -- they're not the same thing -- and what you bring to them. 

I'll offer below some of the tough love meditation topics that have helped some people early in their career.  This may or may not apply to you, I don't know you at all.  List is as follows:

A lot of work isn't sunshine and puppies, that's why they call it work and pay you to do it.

If you need to feel a strong connection to the organization and it's mission, then you need to fish in a smaller pool of opportunities and probably accept lower pay because there is more demand than supply for careers/jobs like that.  You can also try just rationalizing the social value of your job, which is what most people do.  For most people, you find that you work for your immediate manager and immediate team more than you work for the big organization -- choosing a situation with a good manager and team will make a much bigger impact on your work happiness.  

In order to work on exciting, challenging, new things you often need to prove yourself first in the mundane; because everyone wants those opportunities and usually it's meritocracy that decides who gets them.  (If it's not, all the talent leaves and the only way the organization survives is if it's propped up with protection from competition, e.g. public service jobs, union jobs, and they rarely have exciting new things).

It is not any employer's objective to supply you with the job you want or think you deserve; it is their objective to deploy the best available talent in the most productive way to achieve the organizational goal, whether profit, world peace, or whatever.  Meet them halfway by being talented and productive, and they'll happily move you toward more impactful roles. 

Be self-aware and realistic about the talent, effort and value you bring.  It really affects your chances and choices.   

There are lots of different types of people in the world and almost all of them find jobs and/or careers; if you really don't feel like you fit where you are, try looking where there are more people like you.  People select jobs/careers for a variety of reasons - pay, fulfillment, challenge, purpose, socialization, achievement, interest, status, belonging, etc, etc.  Know your own priority reasons and accept that others' different priorities may make them better suited to certain situations or more motivated/driven. 

Drifting along through your career waiting for things to happen has very low odds of providing what you want.  Dreams, goals and plans, in that order. 

Very few people have it all figured out straight out of college.  You should know yourself by now but you're only just getting to know the professional world.  Your choices will become increasingly better informed over many years.  Start somewhere and keep improving from there. 

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19 minutes ago, baxus said:

You are aware that you are not getting the title of the most career-planning-clueless person on this board without a fight? :P I had no idea what I'd like to study in college, so I picked it by crossing the stuff I didn't want to study or didn't think I'd be good at off the list. Ended up with electrical engineering, of all things. Then I enrolled college with a plan to major in communications or maybe electronics, ended up majoring in computer science. As I got close to graduation, I applied for an Android app developer position in a company a friend from college worked for, ended up in an iOS app developer position at that company. Come to think of it, I got news I got that first job an hour or two after graduation, so I didn't even get to experience those few months of happy unemployment you mention.

Regarding the boring job that won't lead anywhere but is paid, I'd agree with @Lany Freelove Cassandra. Go for it. You have nothing to lose, it's an extra hour or two per day for a month. How bad can it be? Worst case scenario, you'd spend a bit of time but get some money. Who knows, maybe it would lead to something more to your liking, either with the company you're at at the moment, or somewhere else.

Pshaw. That sounds aimful and go-getting. I have had three different jobs I only worked one day in, and not because I quit, and have had both 'Volunteer Manager of an Albanian Hostel' and 'Fantasy Literature Message Board Moderator' on my actual resume that was submitted to actual workplaces. To jobs I was actually hired for. Both of which are some of those I left after one day, come to think of it. (Not my fault - in one I couldn't make it to a birthday party, in the other there was mortar fire that day.)

Back in the present, I started a new job today and came in to fill out the 40 forms (not kidding) required for a part time student job, (Perfect for me though...research assistant for the science office of the transport ministry) called my last job to figure out some pension fund transfer issues, and recalled why that place contributed to a spiral of depression when I found myself full-on crying on the phone in front of my new boss not sixty seconds in when they declared that I owed them a month of pay because they'd accidentally paid me too much. A year ago. And had at no point bothered contacting me about it.

Buckwheat - I'd also say take the job. Firstly because more money is more helpful than less money both in general and especially precisely for those moments when the thing you do want to do comes along, and you can drop everything or move across the continent or take a paycut or whatever is happening without huge repercussions. Secondly because even if it is boring, you never know what you might learn or even what dry line on your CV it ends up being that ticks a box for something else down the line. Even learning what you hate is not bad. I guess I hold to the position that more experience is always better than less experience. You can decide what you do with it later. Or leave after one day.

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2 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said:

Got a job interview for a full time tour guide role with a pretty prestigious company but it's a ''group interview'' where i need to prepare a 60 second talk on any subject and be ready to partake in a group activity? I'm really excited because I really want this job for many reasons and I feel I'm totally qualified and ideal for it but unsure what to expect or what to wear. It's also difficult to come up with a coherent, interesting thing to say in 60 seconds that has a beginning, a middle and an end but either way i'm really excited and just needed to post about it because I can't put it on facebook as my current employers/workmates are on there :o 

Congrats! Tour guide sounds perfect for you. Wear what you imagine yourself wearing when you're leading that tour (city? museum? countryside? cute hat? eccentric scarf? comfortable shoes?) but like very slightly nicer. 60 seconds is a great stretch of time. Just long enough for a good anecdote, short enough so no one interrupts. Just think of a story you love, and tell it.

I honestly half-play a character when I need to present or teach a class or something like that. It was dead terrifying when I started and felt utterly artificial...hi, I'm an introvert and all...but I've been doing it a while in different setting and its settled in. There's this slightly more people-loving, patient, gregarious, confident version of me out there somewhere, and I just pretend I'm her.

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2 hours ago, Datepalm said:

Congrats! Tour guide sounds perfect for you. Wear what you imagine yourself wearing when you're leading that tour (city? museum? countryside? cute hat? eccentric scarf? comfortable shoes?) but like very slightly nicer. 60 seconds is a great stretch of time. Just long enough for a good anecdote, short enough so no one interrupts. Just think of a story you love, and tell it.

I honestly half-play a character when I need to present or teach a class or something like that. It was dead terrifying when I started and felt utterly artificial...hi, I'm an introvert and all...but I've been doing it a while in different setting and its settled in. There's this slightly more people-loving, patient, gregarious, confident version of me out there somewhere, and I just pretend I'm her.

I'm going to talk about the engineering project I was teaching to schools for the museum last summer - about the land speed world record held in britain and the bloodhound super sonic car so hopefully that will be interesting! 

i'm generally quite friendly anyway but i definitely do put it on for work (retail) and volunteering at the museum (tour guide, workshop leader) so i'm really hoping they'll see i've got the experience for this and i'd be good at it. really excited lmao ! i love group activities too reminds me of drama class - they're looking for someone with a good local knowledge (it's in wales ...and i'm doing a celtic studies MA with a focus on welsh history lmao) experience of tourism (museum) and retail experience (got 4 years of that bad boy) and experience of theatre (consistent A's in School and College and a member of various local ameteur dramatics groups) so i'm feeling really good about this one!! sorry i can't talk about this on facebook so i'm just getting it all out here hahaha sorry if it's not appropriate in this thread :o thanks datepalm!!!!!!

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On Tuesday, January 31, 2017 at 6:05 PM, Lany Freelove Cassandra said:

How necessary is the money? Very? then there's no question about staying.

Somewhat? Would the time you spent at work be better if you were spending it looking for something you'd like better? If you wouldn't spend that time to look for work anyway, just suck it up. A month is a short time, and a little extra money is always nice.

No, I probably would not be spending that time looking for something elsr either. I am stuck at this internship till April and until then I have time to figure out if I will be staying here longer or move back to Slovenia and look for something more permanent there.

On Tuesday, January 31, 2017 at 6:47 PM, baxus said:

Regarding the boring job that won't lead anywhere but is paid, I'd agree with @Lany Freelove Cassandra. Go for it. You have nothing to lose, it's an extra hour or two per day for a month. How bad can it be? Worst case scenario, you'd spend a bit of time but get some money. Who knows, maybe it would lead to something more to your liking, either with the company you're at at the moment, or somewhere else.

Okay, we can shara that title, and invite Datepalm to the party too. :P The happy unemployment part was sarcasm.

I highly doubt it will lead to anything more in the career sense, since I will be stuck with a computer and entering some data or whatever - not really an opportunity to meet any people to network or whatever. And although there are but few things I know about my future career, at least I know that I do not want to work at the same organisation anymore after April.

On Tuesday, January 31, 2017 at 6:47 PM, Iskaral Pust said:

You have what HR consultants like to call extremely low engagement.  I doubt you'll enjoy the OT unless you're broke.

That means I have not been planning my career for the next 20 years yet? Yes, tjat is true. Errrr ... what is OT in this context? Overtime? In this case, no, I will not enjoy it, but I will go and do it because I am an obedient person and I do what I am told.

On Tuesday, January 31, 2017 at 6:47 PM, Iskaral Pust said:

If you need to feel a strong connection to the organization and it's mission, then you need to fish in a smaller pool of opportunities and probably accept lower pay because there is more demand than supply for careers/jobs like that.  You can also try just rationalizing the social value of your job, which is what most people do.  For most people, you find that you work for your immediate manager and immediate team more than you work for the big organization -- choosing a situation with a good manager and team will make a much bigger impact on your work happiness.  

I do not think I actually strongly need that - maybe, but I do not have enough experience to judge - but just enough to make it umcomfortable for me where I am. That is an organisation that propagates a wholly different life view than I have. My coworkers are fine and all, even very kind to me, but the organisation is something I will never agree with.

Thank you all for the answers. Even the points I did not directly respond to are duly noted. I have talked to some other people and this was what I needed to refresh my awareness that I am spoiled - I did not have to work much during my uni years and have had it comfortable. Time to start doing unpleasant things too.

Another, maybe odd or ridiculous or whatever question. I kind of know the theory about the job interviews and the most common questions and all. Am I the only one who finds questions like "what are you flaws/dreams/wishes/whatever?" very personal? Those are the kind of things I discuss with my close friends, not people I only just met. If somebody were to ask me something like that, my first impulse is to think this is none of their business (I do not say it because I am too well-behaved). I am just wondering if my bar for what is private is that much higher than most people's. Hope this is not too ridiculous to ask in this context, I think it is relevant.

 

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10 hours ago, Buckwheat said:

Am I the only one who finds questions like "what are you flaws/dreams/wishes/whatever?" very personal? Those are the kind of things I discuss with my close friends, not people I only just met. If somebody were to ask me something like that, my first impulse is to think this is none of their business (I do not say it because I am too well-behaved). I am just wondering if my bar for what is private is that much higher than most people's. Hope this is not too ridiculous to ask in this context, I think it is relevant.

I always found those questions stupid rather than personal. When someone asks me where I see myself in 5 years, I never think of career, I think of personal stuff. The way I see it, my career is a way of financing my life.

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I don't think anyone expects you to answer personally, really. (well, I've worked for places where they do, but those were cults. Don't join a cult, kids. Or do, but don't think of it as a career choice, I guess.) The five years or what are your dreams or whatever are contextualized to your professional life. Its just where do you see yourself working in five years, or what your dream job is, or what is going to get in the way of that...you can always pick something anodyne and obviously appropriate and improvable. They might want some presentation of yourself as a single unit under their corporate hegemony. Don't let it get to you. Figure out what you want to be doing to be making a living for a moment, and don't overthink it or let it get tangled with real personal questions for the sake of a single job interview.

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I still, to this day, do not understand the value in a "behavioral" interview.  I think the consulting case interview is far and away the best interview structure I've accomplished in actually evaluating valuable skills in the candidate. Regardless, I think the way most firms interview is pretty terrible in general.

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7 minutes ago, sperry said:

I still, to this day, do not understand the value in a "behavioral" interview.  I think the consulting case interview is far and away the best interview structure I've accomplished in actually evaluating valuable skills in the candidate. Regardless, I think the way most firms interview is pretty terrible in general.

I've found quite a bit of value in them. The way a person thinks on their feet, how they come across when talking (body language, eye contact, flow of conversations, confidence), how they're able to structure and answer questions all matters. If I don't feel confident being able to put them in front of a client, then I don't want to hire them when there are people who I do feel confident about. 

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3 minutes ago, Mexal said:

I've found quite a bit of value in them. The way a person thinks on their feet, how they come across when talking (body language, eye contact, flow of conversations, confidence), how they're able to structure and answer questions all matters. If I don't feel confident being able to put them in front of a client, then I don't want to hire them when there are people who I do feel confident about. 

 

The overwhelming majority of business roles are not client facing, yet the overwhelming majority of interviews include a large (or are entirely) behavioral component.

 

The other disagreement I have with this is that asking random questions about success or failure are not a good way to gauge flow of conversations, confidence, etc. Your greatest weakness, or a time you failed, or what your teammates would say about you, or anythign else are not natural topics of conversation. When you interact with a client, you interact socially and professionally. So you need to be able to make pleasant small talk, and you need to be able to speak intelligently about things related to the work you are doing for your client. The former can be best gauged by having real conversations with the candidate, while the latter by how they answer questions related to the work they would be doing.

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15 minutes ago, sperry said:

yThe overwhelming majority of business roles are not client facing, yet the overwhelming majority of interviews include a large (or are entirely) behavioral component.

The other disagreement I have with this is that asking random questions about success or failure are not a good way to gauge flow of conversations, confidence, etc. Your greatest weakness, or a time you failed, or what your teammates would say about you, or anythign else are not natural topics of conversation. When you interact with a client, you interact socially and professionally. So you need to be able to make pleasant small talk, and you need to be able to speak intelligently about things related to the work you are doing for your client. The former can be best gauged by having real conversations with the candidate, while the latter by how they answer questions related to the work they would be doing.

This is somewhat true in terms of client facing roles but you can learn things like how they'd work in a team and so on. That matters too. Would I give a behavioral interview to a programmer? Nah. But lots of other roles out there that requires interaction with people to succeed and those should get a behavioral.

Additionally, it's not just about the initial question and response but the follow ups. I think it's useful to understand how someone dealt with a failure. The initial story? That's one thing but digging into the story, understanding how much of it is actually true and how much isn't is important. Also getting an idea of how they approached the situation, how they thought through the solutions, how they enacted them are all valuable for me as a manager. 

Personally, I think beyond the questions and get to core attributes I believe someone would need to be successful in my line of work and then I probe. As a hiring manager, case interviews and behavioral are both useful for different reasons.

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It depends on the role for which you are interviewing.  For a junior, technical role I would emphasize knowledge over "presence" and ask some questions to test specific knowledge to make sure they aren't just bluffing on their resume.  But choosing a couple of questions at the right level can establish in less than five minutes whether the candidate has the right knowledge base.

Behavioral questions are valid for any candidate because you need to decide if they will fit with your culture and team, can they communicate effectively, do they have the expected amount of initiative and judgment, are they likely to commit to the role for a while or just use it as a stepping stone to another firm, and do they have potential to grow beyond the role for which you initially hire them?

Junior people who don't know where they want to be in five years are generally less in demand than someone with some ambition and a realistic plan for how to realize that ambition.  If you're not very career-oriented or still figuring things out, then I may not want you to waste my time.  Some jobs want unambitious people who will stay in a dead-end job for a couple of years or longer for want of any sense of direction.

The bigger problem is that many candidates know exactly what you are seeking and dissemble to give you what you want.  For that reason, I try to avoid any canned questions and instead vary between direct and oblique questioning, between values and situational, between experience and expectations, etc in order to test for consistency.  I often offer a misleading impression at some point to see if the candidate will blindly agree or actually push back.  I also tell people up front that I believe strongly in mutual transparency and I never want to hire someone for a role in which they will be unhappy or unlikely to succeed.  You still get some desperate people who ignore that warning but thankfully they're easy to spot.

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