Careerchat II

[Inigima]

Oh, yes, I would never build a schedule for something I don't know anything about without consulting the people who do those tasks.

[sperry]

Job applications for most of the positions I'm applying for are due this week.  Writing cover letters has got to be the most frustrating feeling in the world. You pour all this time and effort into them, carefully checking each word and rereading it 20 times, knowing full well that there's a 99% chance it's either glossed over or not read at all. End rant.

[Datepalm]

...and that no matter how many times you check, there will be a typo in there.

[baxus]

12 hours ago, Inigima said:

Oh, yes, I would never build a schedule for something I don't know anything about without consulting the people who do those tasks.

I can't speak for other industries, but in software development task estimates can be rather questionable. Something you thought would take you an hour or so can turn out to be a lot more serious issue that takes days or even a week or two, especially if we're talking about upgrading software. You never know what to expect then. Though sometimes you do something a lot faster than anticipated so that sort of evens out.

[IheartIheartTesla]

Corporate R&D is almost entirely based built around project management. In fact, I'd struggle to envision what it would without such a framework, since most of the work we do is based around projects (either being a project leader or a team member). 

Resourcing a project, setting goals, milestones and deliverables, and scheduling 'stuff' all fall under a project leader's ambit.

[Inigima]

So, I just got an email from a contact at my previous job (same organization), to ask if I'd be interested in a development role with their team. It's very flattering. However, I have no formal dev experience. I do have some background. They're aware of all this but think I would do well in the role with support from their team.

However, I've only been in my current role for about 10 months. By the time this went through, if I got it -- I'd still have to interview -- it would probably be a bit over a year, but that's still not very long. Currently I do IT infrastructure and I like my job a lot.

Pros:

• Looks like a solid pay bump, and always nice to be moving up and developing new skills
• I know the people on the team, they're nice
• EDIT: This is important and I forgot it. My career trajectory on my current path is something like a network engineer. Are these jobs going to continue to exist vs. being outsourced? I don't know.
• Very flattering to be recruited like this
   

Cons:

• I really like the job I'm in now and the team I work with
• My current boss has invested quite a lot in my professional development, and to run out after a year seems pretty crummy and disloyal
• Would I even be any good at this?

 

Interested in your thoughts. It seems like the cons list is stronger, especially the part where I don't want to be the asshole who splits after so little time. If I should decline, how does one do that politely? Really awesome of them to reach out to me and I want to be sure they know how much I appreciate it.

[Iskaral Pust]

Ini - it's great news to be in demand regardless of how this winds up.  With your fact pattern, I'd be inclined to say thanks, your organization sounds really interesting but the timing is not right.  But that's just me: I don't know your industry very well and I tend to set the bar high for making a move.

 

[Edit:] Ignore that dilemma.  As soon as I typed it I realized I should just drop them a note rather than let the drifting continue.  It's no big deal either way, but silly to let a conversation with a heavy-hitter lapse for simple neglect. [\Edit]

Aside from that, it's time for year-end reviews for all my people.  I give regular feedback but I also have to do something formal at year end.  Plus I feel really bad that my personal workload and distraction means I spend less time with them individually throughout the year than I would like.

 

[Mlle. Zabzie]

On 12/1/2016 at 1:41 AM, Datepalm said:

...and that no matter how many times you check, there will be a typo in there.

I always have someone read stuff out loud to me if I want to catch typos

9 minutes ago, Iskaral Pust said:

Ini - it's great news to be in demand regardless of how this winds up.  With your fact pattern, I'd be inclined to say thanks, your organization sounds really interesting but the timing is not right.  But that's just me: I don't know your industry very well and I tend to set the bar high for making a move.

 

I have a dilemma.  I was approached about a senior role at a big company who wants to build something new.  They asked if I'd take a call from their CEO.  I said upfront that I'm not really looking but I have a lot of respect for this company and for the guy who made the approach and I would take a call.  I spoke to the CEO twice by telephone.  After the last call she asked if I would make a trip to their office to meet some people and discuss further.  I said I would but I clearly wasn't committing too much, and we agreed that we'd follow up on mutual scheduling.  But now I haven't heard back in a few weeks.  I was expecting someone to contact me on her behalf about possible dates, but nothing so far.  It seems odd to let this just drop so inconclusively, but it also seems weird to go back to her to ask if she still wanted me to make this trip, especially because if I'm not really looking to move, then it's a nuisance to find a couple of days to make this trip.  What think you?

Aside from that, it's time for year-end reviews for all my people.  I give regular feedback but I also have to do something formal at year end.  Plus I feel really bad that my personal workload and distraction means I spend less time with them individually throughout the year than I would like.

Isk - I might reach out, though I'm guessing she/they may just be caught up with year end crap, so maybe wait until the new year?

Formal reviews are a good thing.  People should have that opportunity to hear the good and bad and have a candid conversation.

[sperry]

19 hours ago, Inigima said:

So, I just got an email from a contact at my previous job (same organization), to ask if I'd be interested in a development role with their team. It's very flattering. However, I have no formal dev experience. I do have some background. They're aware of all this but think I would do well in the role with support from their team.

However, I've only been in my current role for about 10 months. By the time this went through, if I got it -- I'd still have to interview -- it would probably be a bit over a year, but that's still not very long. Currently I do IT infrastructure and I like my job a lot.

Pros:

• Looks like a solid pay bump, and always nice to be moving up and developing new skills
• I know the people on the team, they're nice
• EDIT: This is important and I forgot it. My career trajectory on my current path is something like a network engineer. Are these jobs going to continue to exist vs. being outsourced? I don't know.
• Very flattering to be recruited like this
   

Cons:

• I really like the job I'm in now and the team I work with
• My current boss has invested quite a lot in my professional development, and to run out after a year seems pretty crummy and disloyal
• Would I even be any good at this?

 

Interested in your thoughts. It seems like the cons list is stronger, especially the part where I don't want to be the asshole who splits after so little time. If I should decline, how does one do that politely? Really awesome of them to reach out to me and I want to be sure they know how much I appreciate it.

 

You cannot think this way. This is not a joint venture between you and your boss. You both work for a corporation, that would lay either of you off in a second should it be financially beneficial. Obviously burning bridges is a real thing to consider, but just don't think in terms of "loyalty." Because at the end of the day it's an employment MARKET, and your current employer can show you how much they mean to you through promotions, pay raises, etc. If they don't and someone offers you something better, that's 100% on them.

[baxus]

23 hours ago, Inigima said:

So, I just got an email from a contact at my previous job (same organization), to ask if I'd be interested in a development role with their team. It's very flattering. However, I have no formal dev experience. I do have some background. They're aware of all this but think I would do well in the role with support from their team.

However, I've only been in my current role for about 10 months. By the time this went through, if I got it -- I'd still have to interview -- it would probably be a bit over a year, but that's still not very long. Currently I do IT infrastructure and I like my job a lot.

Pros:

• Looks like a solid pay bump, and always nice to be moving up and developing new skills
• I know the people on the team, they're nice
• EDIT: This is important and I forgot it. My career trajectory on my current path is something like a network engineer. Are these jobs going to continue to exist vs. being outsourced? I don't know.
• Very flattering to be recruited like this
   

Cons:

• I really like the job I'm in now and the team I work with
• My current boss has invested quite a lot in my professional development, and to run out after a year seems pretty crummy and disloyal
• Would I even be any good at this?

 

Interested in your thoughts. It seems like the cons list is stronger, especially the part where I don't want to be the asshole who splits after so little time. If I should decline, how does one do that politely? Really awesome of them to reach out to me and I want to be sure they know how much I appreciate it.

You'll just never know until you try it.

As for leaving the company after 10 months, I have done that before and I've only heard "why didn't you spend more time at company X?" once. Just try not to make a habit out of changing companies that often and you'll be fine.

If you decide to pass on the offer, just don't be an asshole about it and you'll be fine. Thank them for considering you for this position and tell them you are happy with your position and aren't considering changing your job at this point. If they hold that against you, chances are you wouldn't want to work there in the first place.

DISCLAIMER:

I live and work in Serbia. I don't think things are that much different in USA but they might be, for all I know.

[Kalbear]

xkcd had a really relevant comic to this.

Quote

 

I really like the job I'm in now and the team I work with

My current boss has invested quite a lot in my professional development, and to run out after a year seems pretty crummy and disloyal

Would I even be any good at this?

 

Here's what I would consider framing it as: don't frame it as loyalty here. They invested in you, and it hopefully paid off for them, but you don't owe them anything more than that. If you want to stay - because you enjoy the team, you enjoy the work, and you think you'll be well off there - do so. Enjoying your job is a lot more important than people give credit for, as is working with people you like. 

That being said, something I've discovered is that staying at a place because of people you like means that when they leave that place now really, really sucks. For me, that means that everywhere I go I endeavor to make it a place that I like working at - common projects with team members, a lot of communication and openness, a lot of pairing - and I also look for places that have that style of people and culture. That's what is important to me. If I were you, I'd figure out why you like working there, why you like who you work with, and see how you could replicate it elsewhere - and then, likely, move on.

[Starkess]

I had my annual review debrief today. It was with my old team, back in San Diego, and they had nothing but nice things to say which was really great. I also got a 3% merit raise going into next year, which is actually more than I was expecting (typically annual raises within my firm are more like 1-2%). So that was an awkward conversation (not like I'd rather they said bad things, but I always feel very self-conscious and feel uncomfortable) but good to have done with. They said I definitely have a path towards the next level, but I know that my current level is one where people stay for a long time before moving up so I am not really expecting that. And there is a good possibility I will be leaving my firm next year so it isn't hugely important. But nice to know that they think I should be aiming for it.

My new position out here is going really well. It's a much different environment--such is the nature of consulting, after all. More independent and less hierarchical. I think I like it more, although in some ways it is more difficult to be kind of a lone warrior. So far my new client seems quite pleased with my work, and I am enjoying the more productive nature of my day-to-day work, as I get to actually create more deliverables. So it's tolerable for now, although I still don't love what I do.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

On ‎12‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 7:31 PM, Starkess said:

I had my annual review debrief today. It was with my old team, back in San Diego, and they had nothing but nice things to say which was really great. So that was an awkward conversation (not like I'd rather they said bad things, but I always feel very self-conscious and feel uncomfortable)

 

I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels this way.  We have monthly 'one to one' meetings, and those are bad enough, but the end of year review will be very awkward for me.  I never have learned how to take a complement. According to my boss, I have performed beyond there expectations. I have managed 4 deals, the first was massive, and the other 3 I had to do at the same time.  I am handling the same amount of work as the person who has been here years, and doing just as good of a job of it.

I never know what to say to that kind of comment. "thank you" just seems kind of inadequate. I've let him know how happy I am to be here, how thankful.

[Kalbear]

Lany, look to what you can do to improve in that interview. Ask what is the perception of handling it better, and if there's nothing there, ask instead for where you can branch out and opportunities for doing so. That'll probably put it in something that is less about receiving compliments and more about doing actions that you want to do, while it will also make you look even better. 

[Inigima]

22 hours ago, Lany Freelove Cassandra said:

I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels this way.  We have monthly 'one to one' meetings, and those are bad enough, but the end of year review will be very awkward for me.  I never have learned how to take a complement. According to my boss, I have performed beyond there expectations. I have managed 4 deals, the first was massive, and the other 3 I had to do at the same time.  I am handling the same amount of work as the person who has been here years, and doing just as good of a job of it.

I never know what to say to that kind of comment. "thank you" just seems kind of inadequate. I've let him know how happy I am to be here, how thankful.

"Thank you, that really means a lot to me."

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

20 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Lany, look to what you can do to improve in that interview. Ask what is the perception of handling it better, and if there's nothing there, ask instead for where you can branch out and opportunities for doing so. That'll probably put it in something that is less about receiving compliments and more about doing actions that you want to do, while it will also make you look even better. 

thanks!  there are a couple of things I am working on learning right now, that my coworker doesn't know (mostly about building reports - they lady I replaced was the expert on that). 

1 hour ago, Inigima said:

"Thank you, that really means a lot to me."

This is pretty much what I've said every month.  I think the biggest issue for me is learning to accept it. (and squashing down the self destructive thoughts like 'hope you still feel that way in a year'  )

[Inigima]

So my idiot part-timer is becoming a problem again.

• Punctuality and time management: I got fed up with his constant lateness and laid down the law about being on time to work. He got better. Then he got worse again. That was about a week and a half ago.
• Work quality: He is fucking things up and I am telling him how to do it properly. When I tell you how to properly do the thing I am teaching you how to do, you fucking do it. The amount of backtalk I will take on this thing you should have learned how to do properly months ago is zero. If you argue with me, I will fucking end you. I am done playing.
• Professionalism: This is the one that is currently killing me. This fucking kid has the worst attitude. This week we were going to do an equipment cut-over and he needed to ask the site contact for permission to cause a brief localized network outage. Instead, he told (versus asked) the contact that there was going to be an outage, causing them to think they were going to lose power site-wide for an extended period, which is not possible while the site is occupied. In so doing he was rude and the contact was pissed. He complained (to us) that they were "stupid" and called the site contact a bitch. Luckily no one overheard him, but they could have, and the attitude is poor. I pulled him up short on it and we talked to him for a good half an hour trying to impress on him both the importance of not pissing people off and that they aren't stupid, they have a different field of expertise and he wasn't clear.

One day this kid is going to burn us badly. I don't know what to do with him. I've asked to have him sent to a professionalism training, which probably will happen, but he's an arrogant 25 year old and thinks his shit doesn't stink. It's hard to course-correct someone who will not accept that they need to change.

[Xray the Enforcer]

What an asshole. 

[Iskaral Pust]

Ini, if you have told him these things explicitly and he's not making a conscientious effort to improve, then it's time to part ways.  Arrogant youth is an unfortunate phase (mostly).  If he was great at his job, I could accept the time-keeping and attitude for a little while and look for ways to rasp off those rough edges. The scorn of senior people who he respects usually works. But if you're getting nothing but headaches, he'll need a more extreme life lesson like losing his job. 

Give him an official warning that he's on the cusp of losing his job.  Do whatever you need with HR.  Be explicit about all the aspects that need improvement.  If it doesn't happen quickly and persist, then part ways.  In the long run, he'll probably learn a lot from it and you will have added a valuable long term benefit to your team and organization by setting expectations for professionalism and performance. 

I hired a guy three years ago who had lost his prior job when his arrogance outpaced his performance after he completed his MBA.  His expectations and attitude just got way out over his skies.  I had a short, frank conversation about what he needed to learn from that experience and then gave him a chance. He has been a great employee and human being every day since he joined us. 

[Xray the Enforcer]

Agreed with Isk -- I know that this kid isn't your direct report, but it's time to proactively call a meeting with HR (and make sure it's not just some HR associate, but someone with clout and cred in that department) and invite the kid's direct boss to the meeting. If nothing else, it will create a clear paper trail so that when something goes terribly awry, it'll fall on the idiot's direct manager and not on you.