Does Jon learn about his parentage due to the death of Rickon Stark? (spoilers potentially)

[ilikethesebooks]

I had a thought earlier, perhaps Rickon will die in the battle/be executed by Ramsey. Battle ends, Jon and friends win the battle, Jon goes into the crypts to bury Rickon, finds Rhaegar's harp or something like that maybe in Lyanna's tomb or Bran whispers something to him and he learns of R+L=J that way perahps? I just can't see the point of Rickon even existing otherwise lol

[joma]

but seriously why would Jon accept Rickons death when Jon knows Mel could bring him back, plus hes the only true born 'walking' heir of winterfell.

[ilikethesebooks]

5 minutes ago, joma said:

but seriously why would Jon accept Rickons death when Jon knows Mel could bring him back, plus hes the only true born 'walking' heir of winterfell.

Yeah doesn't make sense but the plot is gonna stall hard if Mel just revives everyone who dies in Jon's company. 

[RhaenysBee]

The point of Rickon's existence is pretty debatable. 

He is kinda the heir of Winterfell, but kinda not at the same time. Literally everybody knows that Bran and Rickon are alive (Jon, Sansa, Ramsay). Even though Bran is up north kinda lost and he will most likely stay there and become the new three eyed Raven, but people don't know this yet and also can't automatically assume he is dead. So even though Rickon is right there and he is the only available Stark, he is not the heir to Winterfell, Bran comes first.

So it's a pretty stupid situation because Sansa and Jon could have argued that the Stark heir to Winterfell is Ramsay's captive when they tried to rally houses, but they would kinda be lying at the same time because they know bran is alive and they know he inherits Winterfell before Rickon. 

If the point of Rickon's existence is to keep on existing and become lord of Winterfell one day, Bran has to be sorted out. He has to be assumed dead or he has to declare that he gives up Winterfell in favor of Rickon. 

If the point of Rickon's existence is to stop existing so actual characters are one step closer to inheriting Winterfell, he had to be brought back and killed off (instead of tossed into Gendry's boat) for consistency. 

of course if Rickon dies, just like if Rickon lives, nothing actually changes for anybody, because there's still Bran. 

If we go with the more likely possibility that is Rickon's death, we have one less thing to sort out, but we still have a lot of stuff to sort out if we want Winterfell to have a legitimate ruler. 

If we want Lord Jon Stark of Winterfell/King in the North to happen, we need to sort out Bran and Jon's legitimacy, but we get to skip the Rickon step. 

If we want Lady Sansa Stark of Winterfell/Queen in the North to happen, we need to sort out Bran and Ramsay (which is happening on Sunday hopefully) and a new husband, but we get to skip the Rickon step. 

And it's theorized that succession and legitimacy will have absolutely no role in the end game of the story because the whole story is about how the system is wrong and the westerosi will wake up one day with a 2016 mind and abolish patriarchy, feudalism, monarchy and a birth right based society (whatever is the proper word for that in English - please tell me). 

So basically there is very little to no point of Rickon's existence. +1 Stark to weep for. 

As for the crypts and Jon and Lyanna's tomb and Rhaegar's harp. It makes no sense to me. Why would Jon open Lyanna's tomb? How would he indentify the harp to be Rhaegar's? If the harp isn't in the tomb why didn't Bran and Rickon and Osha and Sansa and Littlefinger come upon the harp before? How would this add up to him being their child? 

No idea how Jon finds out about his parentage, but I really doubt that Rickon's death and burial in the crypts will have a part in it. 

 

 

 

[Melisandre's Rubies]

32 minutes ago, joma said:

but seriously why would Jon accept Rickons death when Jon knows Mel could bring him back, plus hes the only true born 'walking' heir of winterfell.

Well, potentially if he's one of the bodies on the burning crosses, there may not be the ability to bring him back. While we don't know all the ins and outs of resurrection, burning the body does seem to be a pretty final proverbially "nail in the coffin". We can assume that part of guarding Jon's body was so that it would not be burned and they burn bodies to prevent WW from raising them. Clearly wounds can be healed from but I'm not sure you can grow back all flesh and organs that would be destroyed upon a pyre. 

[TwiceBorn]

4 minutes ago, Melisandre's Rubies said:

Clearly wounds can be healed from but I'm not sure you can grow back all flesh and organs that would be destroyed upon a pyre. 

Or can they? I am confused. I can't tell if Jon's wounds are healing. LSH is basicly a stinking zombie and Berric does not regrow his eye.

[RhaenysBee]

50 minutes ago, joma said:

but seriously why would Jon accept Rickons death when Jon knows Mel could bring him back, plus hes the only true born 'walking' heir of winterfell.

Rickon is not the heir of Winterfell while Bran isn't (confirmed) dead or doesn't give up Winterfell for the next in line. He doesn't need to walk to inherit. 

And like Thoros said, it's not Thoros or Mel or whoever says the words that brings people back. It's the red god aka a higher power aka fate aka whatever we want to call it. And it brings them back because they haven't fulfilled their purpose. They can't liberally bring back anybody they want for no reason. 

43 minutes ago, ilikethesebooks said:

Yeah doesn't make sense but the plot is gonna stall hard if Mel just revives everyone who dies in Jon's company. 

As said above. 

[Kytheros]

The Heir that is present comes before the Heir that is missing (and presumed dead).

Sure, Sansa may know and have told Jon that Bran wasn't killed by Theon. That doesn't do Bran's place in the succession any good, since he's been MIA ever since, and the last anyone may have known of his location was that he was planning to go north of the Wall.

 

If Ramsay kills Rickon, Rickon is not going to be in any condition for a resurrection attempt. And remember, Jon has said that "he shouldn't be here" (meaning he shouldn't be alive) and in the trailer for 6x09 Jon also says that if he dies, don't bring him back. It seems unlikely that Jon would want to inflict the trauma of resurrection on Rickon.

[Citadel_acolyte]

1 hour ago, joma said:

but seriously why would Jon accept Rickons death when Jon knows Mel could bring him back, plus hes the only true born 'walking' heir of winterfell.

Even Mel didn't seem too optimistic that she could bring Jon back. The resurection likely had something to do with additional forces at work. So far, there is nothing to suggest that she can bring back just anyone.  

Given the season 6 previews showing the burned child, if that is indeed Rickon then the method of his death would seem to further eliminate any possibility of a resurection since Mel is in business of sacrificing people (particularly young kids with royal blood) to R'hllor in the flames. Isn't that supposed to be linked to the ascendance/revelation of the Azor Ahai anyway? Perhaps Rickon's death by fire will somehow be linked to the revelation of Jon's identity. Might Mel, rather than Ramsey, be responsible?  She has already shown herself to be capable of this sort of act in the service of the red god.  This would futher complicate an already enigmatic character and may reveal links between the red god and the many-faced god.  We have seen that Mel wears a false face and the fact that her resurection of Jon might require a sacrifice in repayment would seem to dovetail nicely with the beliefs of the FM. Lots of tin-foil speculation going on here, I admit. 

2 hours ago, ilikethesebooks said:

I had a thought earlier, perhaps Rickon will die in the battle/be executed by Ramsey. Battle ends, Jon and friends win the battle, Jon goes into the crypts to bury Rickon, finds Rhaegar's harp or something like that maybe in Lyanna's tomb or Bran whispers something to him and he learns of R+L=J that way perahps? I just can't see the point of Rickon even existing otherwise lol

Not withstanding what I said above, I think there may be some truth to the theory that interment of Rickon will be linked to Jon's discovery of his past. The first book in particular emphasizes that there is a tomb at the ready for all of the Stark kids and multiple signs point to some sort of discovery linked to Lyann's grave. 

I guess we shall see. 

[Masha]

27 minutes ago, Kytheros said:

The Heir that is present comes before the Heir that is missing (and presumed dead).

Sure, Sansa may know and have told Jon that Bran wasn't killed by Theon. That doesn't do Bran's place in the succession any good, since he's been MIA ever since, and the last anyone may have known of his location was that he was planning to go north of the Wall.

 

If Ramsay kills Rickon, Rickon is not going to be in any condition for a resurrection attempt. And remember, Jon has said that "he shouldn't be here" (meaning he shouldn't be alive) and in the trailer for 6x09 Jon also says that if he dies, don't bring him back. It seems unlikely that Jon would want to inflict the trauma of resurrection on Rickon.

Wasn't there a HUGE plot in season 4 where Jon finds out from Sam that Bran is alive and beyond the wall. Then he mounts search and rescue expedition to Craster's Keep with an excuse to hunt down and kill the traitors to the Watch so they won't blab to Mance on real numbers of the Watch (hundreds vs thousands)?

The only news to Jon was Rickon's survival and subsequent capture by Ramsey. He already knew about Bran more than Sansa did. The biggest problem they have since north of the Wall been completely conquered by WW, its assumed that there is no living left behind anymore, and there is literally no chance for Bran to survive since nobody else knows about CotF and 3ER.

So Bran is presumed dead (by cold, hunger and WW) instead of presumed dead by Theon.

[chasing the dragons]

2 hours ago, joma said:

but seriously why would Jon accept Rickons death when Jon knows Mel could bring him back, plus hes the only true born 'walking' heir of winterfell.

Jon stated to Sansa that he doesn't want to be brought back should he fall in battle.

When Thoros brings back Beric, Beric says that a little piece of him "dies" or something like that (maybe that he isn't "whole") 

Whatever, anyway, maybe Jon doesn't like the feeling he now lives with and wouldn't want the same for Rickon.

Or maybe Red Woman isn't around (She's never around for a battle btw)

Or maybe D&D haven't thought it through.

Either way, I like the harp idea wit6h Bran speaking through the crypts.

[TickTak7]

2 hours ago, joma said:

but seriously why would Jon accept Rickons death when Jon knows Mel could bring him back, plus hes the only true born 'walking' heir of winterfell.

I'm not expecting Melisandre to survive this season, which would help deal with that particular plot issue. 

The only reason why we haven't got the final R + L = J Tower of Joy reveal yet, is because they seem to be trying to coincide Bran's flashback with when Jon finds out in real time about his parentage. 

The crypts / harp theory and explanation isn't a bad one. I do hope it's something more literal - like Jon connects the dots on his own, rather than it being something silly supernatural like Bran whispering it to him or something. 

I wonder if they will try to make use of the whole "Targs = fire proof" thing on the show during the battle? Maybe Jon gets burnt, but turns out he's actually OK or resistant to it, which might cause him to be more alert. 

[facelessaryas]

I don't doubt there's something in Lyannas crypt but it's not like it's just laying out  for anyone to see. Robert, Ned, Sansa and Littlefinger have all visited Lyannas tomb and no one has noticed anything out of the ordinary. Even if they put Rickon in the crypt, why would they go and open/disturb Lyannas crypt? 

[El Guapo]

10 minutes ago, TickTak7 said:

I'm not expecting Melisandre to survive this season, which would help deal with that particular plot issue. 

The only reason why we haven't got the final R + L = J Tower of Joy reveal yet, is because they seem to be trying to coincide Bran's flashback with when Jon finds out in real time about his parentage. 

The crypts / harp theory and explanation isn't a bad one. I do hope it's something more literal - like Jon connects the dots on his own, rather than it being something silly supernatural like Bran whispering it to him or something. 

I wonder if they will try to make use of the whole "Targs = fire proof" thing on the show during the battle? Maybe Jon gets burnt, but turns out he's actually OK or resistant to it, which might cause him to be more alert. 

There is no "Targs = fire proof" thing.  Viserys was burned and so was Jon.

There is however a "Daenerys = Fireproof"  thing on the show.

 

[RhaenysBee]

1 hour ago, Kytheros said:

The Heir that is present comes before the Heir that is missing (and presumed dead).

Sure, Sansa may know and have told Jon that Bran wasn't killed by Theon. That doesn't do Bran's place in the succession any good, since he's been MIA ever since, and the last anyone may have known of his location was that he was planning to go north of the Wall.

 

If Ramsay kills Rickon, Rickon is not going to be in any condition for a resurrection attempt. And remember, Jon has said that "he shouldn't be here" (meaning he shouldn't be alive) and in the trailer for 6x09 Jon also says that if he dies, don't bring him back. It seems unlikely that Jon would want to inflict the trauma of resurrection on Rickon.

Really? I mean is that a fact and how does this work? 

I mean Jon knows that Bran is on a quest north of the wall. And as someone who has been on a quest north of the wall he shouldn't automatically assume that Bran is dead. He's been expecting Benjen back since season 1, so why wouldn't he expect Bran back? 

And that just goes like that, someone is off on a quest and he is automatically swept aside? Isn't it kinda their duty to at least try and look for him before they presume he is gone for good? Will the honorable Starks ditch the possibility of Bran being alive because it's convenient? I mean it's possible, but certainly pretty weird to me. 

10 minutes ago, facelessaryas said:

I don't doubt there's something in Lyannas crypt but it's not like it's just laying out  for anyone to see. Robert, Ned, Sansa and Littlefinger have all visited Lyannas tomb and no one has noticed anything out of the ordinary. Even if they put Rickon in the crypt, why would they go and open/disturb Lyannas crypt? 

Bran, Osha and Rickon literally lived in the crypts for weeks and they never came upon anything fishy there. Neither did Sansa and Littlefinger. Of course it was too early on in the series for Robert to find/notice anything when he visited there and if there's anything in or around Lyanna's tomb that has to do with Rhaegar, Ned would have been the one to put it there so he would know (which is no use to us, because Ned is dead). 

[Jayc]

I am starting to believe that we the viewers are going to learn the true identity of some characters like Jon and AA, but those in the story will not.

[RhaenysBee]

14 minutes ago, Jayc said:

I am starting to believe that we the viewers are going to learn the true identity of some characters like Jon and AA, but those in the story will not.

Maybe we the viewers will find out about Jon's parents this season but Jon will only find out about it later? I would be fine with that. 

But if he doesnt find out about it at all, then the whole Jon's parentage baggage is a big fat nothing because it's not going to affect Jon in any way and it's an empty fun fact. So why spend millions on Tower of Joy flashbacks? 

[Rumy Stark]

15 minutes ago, Jayc said:

I am starting to believe that we the viewers are going to learn the true identity of some characters like Jon and AA, but those in the story will not.

Or that Bran will learn but it won't be until he next encounters Jon that Jon learns, etc. 

Honestly I think if Jon is going to the Lord of Winterfell and/or King of the North he would have a stronger claim as Ned Stark's son. Finding out R+ L = him would not help his claim to Winterfell so might not add much to the story from his perspective at this point.

Regarding Rickon and the crypts.... I hope there's something to that. The crypts are brought up time and time again and even though everyone's been down there and no one seems to have discovered anything, I have a feeling something will pop up. Rickon's burial would be a good way to do this since they will actually be opening his burial place, so technically things will be moving and shifting. (But I do think it'll be a tad lame if Rickon dies this episode after having not been a character for several years. I was hoping they'd at least have him like, DO something before his time came.)
 

[Jayc]

10 minutes ago, RhaeBee said:

Maybe we the viewers will find out about Jon's parents this season but Jon will only find out about it later? I would be fine with that. 

But if he doesnt find out about it at all, then the whole Jon's parentage baggage is a big fat nothing because it's not going to affect Jon in any way and it's an empty fun fact. So why spend millions on Tower of Joy flashbacks? 

The only way those in the story finding out about Jon's true lienage would require some sort of burning, dragon, fire resurrection, which a lot of us, including me thought we would see at the beginning of this season. Bran telling Jon isn't going to mean much to anyone else. Who is going to believe them?

I just don't see Bran as the one who makes the big reveal to the those in the story. He's going to find out, but Its going to have to be something dramatic like Dany and the dragon hatching. I just don't see it happening with Jon.

For us the viewers, if we know, then that makes his character that much more important in the story. His ability to survive, etc...  

Unless Jon dies and is reborn again this time with fire, or the dragons show up and Rheagar or Viserion ends up being his best buddy, I don't see another likely scenario where those in the story find out other then Bran.

[Jayc]

18 minutes ago, Rumy Stark said:

Or that Bran will learn but it won't be until he next encounters Jon that Jon learns, etc. 

 

Even if he tells Jon who else would believe them?

"Oh by the way, my brother traveled in time and found out my daddy is Rheagar Targ."

The only way those in story believe who Jon is has to be something similar to Dany hatching the dragons. Telling aint gonna work.