The importance and mystery of the Blackwoods and the Daynes or let’s discuss about them.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

The Blackwoods and the Daynes are two of my favorite Houses and two of the most interesting and intriguing houses in Westeros. Interestingly both Houses are First Men and they were Kings once and in TWOIAF we learn that the current Targaryens have not only Targaryen blood but also Dayne’s blood through Dyanna and Maekar and Blackwood blood through Betha and Aegon V. We also have no idea about what their words are.

My questions are; First could be their blood what gives the current generation of Targaryens their *powers*? Could the fact that even if we have words of far less important or interesting Houses like House Follard,  Peckledon, Waxley and Wydman we have no idea about their words, be because they would have some importance in the future and will be a spoiler?  

[Dorian Martell]

The blood of first men is important, but less so than the house keeping with the old gods. Targ powers seem to come  from their Targ blood a la Denys the Dreamer. 

[AryaGonnaEatThatDeadFatGuy]

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell said:

The blood of first men is important, but less so than the house keeping with the old gods. Targ powers seem to come  from their Targ blood a la Denys the Dreamer. 

I would have to agree with Dorian here. None of Aegon Vs heirs hatched a dragon until Dany and you could throw in more houses than that by then. And when it comes to dreaming, there are two Targ* charecters who have the gift during Dunk and Egg stories but one comes from Blackwood descent in Daeron the Drunken and Bracken descent in John the Fiddler. So the common thread here just appears to be Targ blood

To the OP, yea I agree the words will spoil something but I don't know if it will necessarily spoil the future. I think it will just say something like Dawn = Old Ice and elaborate on history

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 minute ago, AryaGonnaEatThatDeadFatGuy said:

Blackwood descent in Daeron the Drunken

He had Dayne blood not Blackwood.

2 minutes ago, AryaGonnaEatThatDeadFatGuy said:

Bracken descent in John the Fiddler

The Fiddler was Daemon's son not Calla's and Aegor's so he didn't had Bracken blood.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

7 minutes ago, AryaGonnaEatThatDeadFatGuy said:

I think it will just say something like Dawn = Old Ice and elaborate on history

I can see it. I have a theory about the original Ice becoming Lightbringer and then Dawn .

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell said:

but less so than the house keeping with the old gods.

Can you explain that? You mean religion is more importand than the ancestry?

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell said:

Targ powers seem to come  from their Targ blood a la Denys the Dreamer. 

I was refering to their bonds with their pets. For Jon, Ghost was a part of himself and Dany was connected to Drogon and could feel his pain.

[AryaGonnaEatThatDeadFatGuy]

11 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

He had Dayne blood not Blackwood.

The Fiddler was Daemon's son not Calla's and Aegor's so he didn't had Bracken blood.

Whoops. I was thinking of Bittersteel vs Bloodraven and got it confused with Daeron vs Daemon. So that was just a fail. Whoops

[Dorian Martell]

1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Can you explain that? You mean religion is more importand than the ancestry?

Yes. Everyone south of the neck, save the dornish is mostly Andal with some first men blood.  Who do we know of that has magical powers in the books. The Stark kids, raised in a family that keeps the old gods. Bloodraven, raised in a family that keeps the old gods, Varamyr, Orell, Hagon, Borroq, Briar, Grisella, all raised beyond the wall with the old gods.  

 

[Scorpion92]

Ashara is Daenerys' mother, that is why we know so little about them. The reason George withholds the info on them is because it will instantly connect with Dany, and it is not time yet, I think.

If LmL's essay can be trusted (and I trust them A LOT), then Daynes are refugees from Great Empire of the Dawn (Asshai used to be the capital of this empire) and closely related to rulers of that land. They came to Westeros much earlier (Oldtown and Starfall have tons of evidences) than First Men first put foot on the continent.

And Dany saw these GEotD rulers in House of Undying for a reason - that is her maternal ancestors, trying to teach or warn her about something. "Drink from the cup of ice (Stark), drink from the cup of fire (Dayne)", great shadow of the wolf in the tent, wolf howling at night and making her sad and hungry, etc.

And there is a reason why fandom cannot resolve "lemongate" - it is not time yet. It needs to come like a shock just the way "Hodor" revelation came in the show.

Just my 2 cents.

[Shireen Purratheon]

7 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Could the fact that even if we have words of far less important or interesting Houses like House Follard,  Peckledon, Waxley and Wydman we have no idea about their words, be because they would have some importance in the future and will be a spoiler?  

I thought this part was confirmed? That the reason we don't have House Dayne's words is because it'd give away too much or be too big a clue was something that came directly from an SSM. Though maybe that's an apocryphal remembering on my part.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

8 hours ago, Scorpion92 said:

Ashara is Daenerys' mother, that is why we know so little about them. The reason George withholds the info on them is because it will instantly connect with Dany, and it is not time yet, I think.

If Ashara was the mother who was the father?

9 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

Yes. Everyone south of the neck, save the dornish is mostly Andal with some first men blood.  Who do we know of that has magical powers in the books. The Stark kids, raised in a family that keeps the old gods. Bloodraven, raised in a family that keeps the old gods, Varamyr, Orell, Hagon, Borroq, Briar, Grisella, all raised beyond the wall with the old gods.  

I like it. So, their beliefs is their connection with those who give them powers and not their blood.

 

[Dorian Martell]

1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I like it. So, their beliefs is their connection with those who give them powers and not their blood.

I think it is blood and beliefs that are the key to the magic of the  children  and the first men 

[Maia]

14 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

Yes. Everyone south of the neck, save the dornish is mostly Andal with some first men blood.

After TWoIAF we know that this is not exactly true, though.

This description only applies to the Vale, where, yes, Andals displaced even the commoners.

The Riverlands were also conquered, but not as completely, their blood is probably an even mixture. And the Blackwoods would have also married their neighbors, etc., so their blood is not "pure".

The Stormlands - there was a lot of fighting with the First Men Kings hanging on by their nails, though never completely defeated, and eventually peace and interbreeding happened. Also mixed populace, maybe less Andal than the Riverlands.

Dorne - not many Andals were interested, though some came and settled, but there were also the Rhoynish, of course. The latter also had magic of some sort, so who knows what the overall result on the magic affinity of the populace could be.

The Iron Islands - mixture of the First Men and some Andals + possibly some indigenious people that were there before either + thralls and salt-wives from all over. Curiously, there are persistent rumors of skin-changers on the Iron Islands (the Farwynds and their smallfolk).

The Westerlands - many wars with the Andal invaders, never conquered, but eventually had to admit some. As far as I can see, interbreeding mostly happened on the level of nobility  and gentry. The smallfolk are  largely First Men.

And, of course, the kicker - the Reach! Never even seriously threatened by the Andals, admitted a few to get the secret of working iron and because of their warrior prowess. The nobility is largely of the First Men blood, the smallfolk entirely so. They are almost as "pure" as the Northmen! They did convert to the Faith, of course, but weirwoods are everywhere. Rumors of skin-changers in House Crane.

As to the Daynes, personally, I think that they are  descendants of the first Azor Ahai or of his faithful companion, and that Dawn is Lightbringer. It may need some more magic to kick-start it's more esoteric abilities after all this time, or it may be that it needs to be in the right hands to display them. Or even to be in proximity to the Others for it's magic to rip lose? And yes, IMHO  AA and the Dayne ancestor (if they are not one and the same) were ancient Asshaii, who may have also been proto-dragonlords.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

6 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

I think it is blood and beliefs that are the key to the magic of the  children  and the first men 

Of course the blood is important no one can refuse that.

[Veltigar]

34 minutes ago, Maia said:

This description only applies to the Vale, where, yes, Andals displaced even the commoners.

And even in the Vale they did not do so entirely. Especially on the land of the First Man Houses, there must have been a lot of interbreeding, with the displacements happening more in the lands completely claimed by the Andals. 

The rest of your assessment is entirely correct thought. I must admit that before TWOIAF I personally thought there would have been a far greater influx of Andals in the Reach especially. That just shows you how succesful the invaders actually were when it came down to soft power, because they completely Andalized most of the South. Quite impressive really. An Andalization which has also proven to be quite robust. Even in Dorne, most of the Rhoynish adapted and started worshipping the Seven (the orphans of the Greenblood exepted). Quite the achievement.

As to the Iron Islands, I got the impression from the TWOIAF that they were mostly Andal strangely enough. The Farwynds are a good exception, in the sense that we know they live on the poorest and most remote islets. It makes sense that the Andal invaders wouldn't care about them, allowing them to have a larger share of genetic material from the First Men. The thrall point is a good observation by the way. Given recent events in the sample chapter for tWoW,

Spoiler

the fact that Euron might be a failed greenseer;

must mean that the Ironborn's First Men heritage is stronger than previously assumed. If you take the thralls into account, which presumably are largely taken from the North, Riverlands, Westerlands and the Reach, that pretty much explains it. Throw in the upward mobility for the children of thralls and you would probably get a population which is almost just as strongly First Men as the population of the mainland.

[LordImp]

On 19. juni 2016 at 2:46 AM, Scorpion92 said:

Ashara is Daenerys' mother, that is why we know so little about them. The reason George withholds the info on them is because it will instantly connect with Dany, and it is not time yet, I think.

If LmL's essay can be trusted (and I trust them A LOT), then Daynes are refugees from Great Empire of the Dawn (Asshai used to be the capital of this empire) and closely related to rulers of that land. They came to Westeros much earlier (Oldtown and Starfall have tons of evidences) than First Men first put foot on the continent.

And Dany saw these GEotD rulers in House of Undying for a reason - that is her maternal ancestors, trying to teach or warn her about something. "Drink from the cup of ice (Stark), drink from the cup of fire (Dayne)", great shadow of the wolf in the tent, wolf howling at night and making her sad and hungry, etc.

And there is a reason why fandom cannot resolve "lemongate" - it is not time yet. It needs to come like a shock just the way "Hodor" revelation came in the show.

Just my 2 cents.

It's a nice theory , but how is it possible really? If Ashara gave birth to Dany at Starfall why did she end up on Dragonstone? Why would Ashara give up on her child ? Why didnt Viserys notice anything? 

I have nothing against the theory , i just want to know how you think it's possible. 

[Scorpion92]

There are several things that lead me to this conclusion:

1) Mention of how Dany and Ashara have the same eyes according to Barristan, and we know that Barristan was Kingsguard to Targaryens and he saw Rhaella several times, so it is weird he compares Dany to Ashara and not her real "mom". 

Also Barristan mentions that Ashara had a stillborn daughter, which is an instant pause for me right there.

2) "Lemongate", which creates a possibility of Dany living in Dorne for short time - House Dayne's region.

3) Everything Dany knows about her heritage is through Viserys. And we know how foolish he was, so if someone used him in their schemes and plans, I don't think he will be aware of it and think that he had his Targaryen sister all along with him.

4) Ashara was handmaiden to Elia Martell, therefore, she knew House Martell and possibly had good relationship with Oberyn Martell who even danced with her during Harrenhal tournament. And we know Oberyn and Willem Darry signed a Viserys-Arianne marriage pact with Sealord of Braavos as witness. Just saying.

5) The whole Ned Stark's trip to Starfall is such a mystery fans debate it and try to find out what really happened there and why Ashara "killed" herself. I believe Ned and Ashara were truly in love with each other, but when Brandon was killed by Mad Aerys then Ned needed to fulfill his duty and marry Catelyn which broke Ashara's heart. I am pretty sure Ned would have married Ashara if not for the circumstances.

OF COURSE this is very weak in its crib to proclaim Dany as Ashara Dayne's daughter, but there is a reason why George included this in the books. "Remember who you are. Dragons know, do you?"

And Dany has lots and lots of wolf associations throughout her visions. But I will not go further than "Ashara Dayne is her mom" tinfoil.

 

[Eden-Mackenzie]

1 hour ago, Scorpion92 said:

There are several things that lead me to this conclusion:

1) Mention of how Dany and Ashara have the same eyes according to Barristan, and we know that Barristan was Kingsguard to Targaryens and he saw Rhaella several times, so it is weird he compares Dany to Ashara and not her real "mom". 

Also Barristan mentions that Ashara had a stillborn daughter, which is an instant pause for me right there.

I agree there is something extremely suspicious with the whole Ashara situation, but I do not think she is Dany's mother. Jorah compares Dany's looks to Lynesse's, but as far as I know no one has proclaimed Dany to be a secret Hightower. Barristan was in love with Ashara, and while I do not call his memory/mental abilities into question, it has been quite some time since he last saw Ashara, and there was a distinct lack of purplish eyes in the Baratheon/Lannister court, so Dany would have been the first purple-eyed woman he had seen since he last saw Ashara. The true test will be if Dany runs into Ser Bonifer, that meeting could result in a comparison to Rhaella. 

Rhaegar had dark indigo eyes, Viserys lilac. Ned Dayne has blue eyes bordering on purple, Darkstar has purple eyes bordering on black, and Young Griff, regardless of his true identity, has purple eyes that originally seemed dark blue when paired with his Tyroshi hair. I believe there is a similar description of Egg's eyes as well, Dunk calls them blue then corrects himself, calling them purple.