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(SPOILERS) Criticise Without Reprecussion


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10 minutes ago, Stark_Contrast said:

I don't mind that he's over the top. My problem is that he is over the top the wrong way. Although he is a cruel psychopath he is also streetsmart and deceitful, a good conman, and in the book he succeeds by playing to those strenghts. I think it's ridiculous that he would also be a great warlord and a super ranger. He has neither the experience nor the education. (Nor, in fact, the psyche: why would anyone follow such a person unless under threat, but that is never explained, most northern houses just seem to prefer Ramsay to 8000 years of Stark rule. OK.)  Noone as much as lifts an eyebrow for his killing Roose and nothing at all changes because of it, so I guess he's a quite alright lord too. (Except for never noticing that Moat Cailin, the key to the north, has been lost for weeks. Poor Ramsay who only makes one mistake for four seasons, and that becomes his undoing.) And the saddest thing of all Is I think Iwan Rheon was a great cast who caught Ramsay's personality perfectly way back in season 3 when the character still made some sense. What a waste!

Add to that that he is clearly an ugly brute in the books.  His persona in the books makes very clear why he would resent a handsome prince like Theon who had everything Ramsay never had and then destroy all that made Theon what he was.  There's no real understanding why show!Ramsay is like he is except EVIL!

 

7 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

See, that's all it is with d$d, They don't give a fuck about the characters at all, whether it's one of the main protagonists or just an animal. (in d$d's eyes, to me Ghost isn't just an animal, but a main protagonist in his own right, or at least a part of one.) That comment just highlights what all of us here already know, the characters in d$d's so called "story" are all shallow interchangeable shells and have no bearing on the story aside from being toys for d$d to sadistically play with. The director basically said that they would have killed off Ghost, but for the fact that it was to difficult to film. All they cared about is having a character loved by the audience to pump full of enough arrows to make him look like a porcupine. :ack: Just sickening. :stillsick: 

ARggghhhh! :tantrum: They just make me so angry.

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On 6/20/2016 at 0:01 PM, McBaine said:

In Mereen:

Yara:“Hey, Dany, you're super cool and I'd like to be a strong female ruler like you, because girl power and stuff.“

Dany:“Awesome, that's my plan too, but why not wait for the bigger fleet of your uncle?

Yara:“Because he's totally a mean chauvinist pig and doesn't respect you and shows this by wanting to fuck you.“

Dany:“Yikes, okay, that seems reasonable, that's not really my cup of tea, I'm all about being respected. You will give me your ships just so I can burn your uncle and make you a warden?

Yara:“Yep, but I'd fuck you too – in a totally respectful way of course, because I'm a woman and not a man, it is advisable to speak like that to a ruler. Then I will ask my brother if he thinks that is okay? Yes? Good then.“

Dany:“Awesome. Then I will quickly ask Tyrion if... oh, he nods his head, then it is decided! From now on we are empowered super besties forever!
 

Before the battle in the War Tent:

Sansa:“It's totally mean that you didn't ask my opinion about the battle. It didn't even occur to you you chauvinist!

Jon:“Ok, you're right. What do you think about the battle plan?

Sansa:“Battle plan?! How should I know? I know nothing about that stuff! But beware of Ramsey!

Jon:“Err, yes, thanks for the good advice, but I fought worse than Ramsy.“

Sansa: „But not Ramsey, because, he's totally mean and a monster and plays his games...“

Jon:“Sansa, I fought against tireless ice zombies and their commanders – beings immune to normal weapons because the cold from their bodies makes even steel splinter and break in seconds! Ramsey is a sick and brutal lunatic, everyone except Littlefinger from here to Dorne knows this! I think Ramsey has a strong third place in the threat olympics, but he is not as dangerous as the army of the walking dead.“

Sansa:“But a battle is dumb! Rickon is as good as dead and we have not enough men!“

Jon:“We asked everywhere! Where else should we pull more more fighters from?! Sansa, by the old gods and the new, if you know of any other troops we can use, now is the right moment to tell me about it. Many lifes and the victory depends on this!

Sansa:“I wrote to Littlefinger and he's on his way with an army of Vale Knights...

Jon:“Did you say something?“

Sansa:“What? No, nothing“


 

Before the Battle:

Ramsey lets Rickon go.

Ramsey:“ Now my boy, run to your brother. I have a bow and will try to shoot you. Off you go.“

Rickon starts to sprint and thinks:“Okay, he is shooting arrows at me. Gotta get to Jon fast! Under all circumstances I have to run in a straight line – otherwise I will lose valuable time and it takes longer to reach Jon! Go in a straight line – get as much distance between yourself and Ramsey as possible. I can make it! I can make it and have some lines and a plot again! In a straight li... Argh! An arrow! How?! I sprinted so fast?! Why has only Arya inherited the healing powers of our ancestor Dire Wolverine Stark?!“
 

Ramsey:“Haha, great shot, I have to praise myself! I would have been screwed if he hadn't run in a straight line or I'd overestimated my aim. I didn't bring my hounds as backup and the Stark heir would have escaped. How embarassing and stupid would that have been?! XD“

''I could kill the bastard Jon Snow while I'm at it. It wasn't my plan (?), but while he stands in an open field and is a unmoving target... Nah! I let my 20 good men do it. Go on and shoot the bastard, while I pat myself on the shoulder. You missed?! All of you? Well, you are better at sneaking and malicious arson.“
 

During the Battle:

Jon:“Shit, we talked about a pincing maneuver, but now we are caught between slow marching Bolton soldiers in phalanx formation?! This wouldn't have happened if there wasn't a 40 feet high hill of corpses – out of the blue no less!“

''Hey, there's Sansa. I think I'm the only one who is suprised that she got the Vale Knights to help her. Ice zombies Sansa! ICEZOMBIES! Would have been great if we had have fewer losses to fight against the supernatural undead threat from the north!“

 

Meanwhile Sansa sits on her horse next to a smirking Littlefinger and is proud of herself.

Sansa:“I am so smart, S-M-R-T! A genius move. I did that all by myself.“


 

Sometimes I can't even...

*wipes away tears* :bowdown:

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4 minutes ago, WeCameFromNorth said:

Then they are failing in that pretty miserably too. I see a lot of comments like: "we didn’t even know Rickon, why we should care he died" (he’s child if nothing else, for crying out loud, how could we not care), so how much of emotional response Shaggy’s death has invoked, or even Ghost’s would, in broader audience?

I agree, this show has lost the ability to evoke any emotion out of me at all that is brought on from the actual story. Sadly though, these tactics do work on the countless drones that praise the show week after week because it's so "bad ass" and "shocking and edgy" and "look shiny". But you are right, the effects of all these shocking deaths are wearing off on even the most hardcore show fans, as d$d have no idea how to portray their characters with any admirable or relatable characteristics at all. Any emotional reaction to these characters now, can only be attributed to the connection fans have with them due to their book counterparts.

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It looks to me as some really strange mix of hits and misses on showrunners part. They clearly hit some notes in their audience just like they intended – it’s confusing how many people, even those who claim to love bookSansa, bought that thing that Sophie Turner was advertising and just adore that unmentionable scene with Sansa feeding Ramsay to dogs. On the other hand, it seems that they are really failed to get any praise for empowered Ellaria or sexually diversified Asha.

And yes, as my dog’s trusted human being, I have great love and respect for almost all things canine, so I just can’t understand how anyone is capable of starting from Mister Martin’s books (I’m not saying adapting, that concept stayed somewhere far in the past) and not get the direwolves at all.

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1 hour ago, Tijgy said:

LOL. I just wanted to say this. Grey Wind is an awesome wolf! 

It is not like both Robb and Jon locked their wolves up because they were too feral. And it is not like even the Battle at the Wall Jon asked Sam to free Ghost to aid them in their fight (during the show...). And it is not like there were several giants and mammoths in that battle. 

The money went just in those lizards. They even say so the dog bit the dust or something like that. Sigh. It does mean something the Starks are wolves, some of them have wolf blood, ... 

:bang:

I would have even been fine if they just used regular wolf looking dogs and clearly didn't show them in the same shot (to not give away the size). Or maybe just made them the same size as regular wolves, but with super powers (hey, Ramsay has super powers, why not the direwolves). Just something to tell the story.

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9 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

I would have even been fine if they just used regular wolf looking dogs and clearly didn't show them in the same shot (to not give away the size). Or maybe just made them the same size as regular wolves, but with super powers (hey, Ramsay has super powers, why not the direwolves). Just something to tell the story.

I have no problem with the fact if they had just used wolf looking big dogs. If they are very good trained, we would have still the hugs, wrestling games, ... (I always go for the adorable factor and not for the badass one). If they are speaking of them as dogs, they should have just dogs then :rolleyes:

The most frustrating thing is actually the CGI Dog at the end. We can have some dogs to eat Ramsay but we cannot have the wolves. :rolleyes: And I was already hoping for a long time to see Ghost eat someone. 

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22 hours ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

OH MY, I must have stumbled into the Tyrion can do no wrong thread?  Eh, as usual, The D;s Tyrion was pretty friggin boring anyway.   Honestly, I can't believe how awful all of the Mereen stuff was, from the CGI of the city as the dragons attacked to the clash of Daario's Dothraki with Harpies.  The dragons themselves were ok, it was everything around them that looked terrible.  Still, I'd take that over Boring Tyrion's dialogue.   Hopefully Dany will put an end to his bad jokes and silly drinking games.  That'd be something to put in the positive column. 

St Tyrion, the most insufferable character on GoT, and that's saying a LOT since most show characters are to greater or lesser degrees. 

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9 minutes ago, Tijgy said:

I have no problem with the fact if they had just used wolf looking big dogs. If they are very good trained, we would have still the hugs, wrestling games, ... (I always go for the adorable factor and not for the badass one). If they are speaking of them as dogs, they should have just dogs then :rolleyes:

The most frustrating thing is actually the CGI Dog at the end. We can have some dogs to eat Ramsay but we cannot have the wolves. :rolleyes: And I was already hoping for a long time to see Ghost eat someone. 

Yeah, we didn't have to actually see Ramsay being eaten. I didn't look anyway. I didn't want to see Sandra's smirks.

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8 hours ago, Lord Syv Aldlark said:

Someone told DnD that politics is boring.. except it is the main basis for the entire show. I mean I can't remember exactly but the cloak and dagger political moves and surprises across the board out weigh the epic battle scenes. Yet we've moved past them for some reason. 

Tits and Dragons.  Mcshane knows all.

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In regards to comments from other place about Rickon's death ("why should we care, we didn't know him"); it says something about the show that a young boy was just murdered within sight of his family, and the audience is able to find a reason not to care about this. You (generic GoT viewer) should care because if you haven't traveled with this young man, you have traveled with his older brother Jon and his sister Sansa. They care, why don't you? (and then you realize that Sansa doesn't care because she's evil now apparently? Are you supposed to be rooting for her?) 

And I agree- the dire wolves are just as important as the dragons. To neglect them or kill them offhandedly is poor storytelling. Ghost is Jon's shadow, Summer is Bran's other self. And Nymeria is never far from Arya's dreams. 

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First off how in the world would Ramsay make that shot. Its a longbow.he was to far,might as well shoot Jon. Sansa why the secrecy?Like seriously why play games with thousands of lives.I would have liked to see Davos off someone.The sons of the harpies wearing  old school hockey masks for fighting,that can't be good for the vision and the breathing I dont buy that.And why did wunwun did not have a sword or at least a club,?

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6 hours ago, Darkstream said:

See, that's all it is with d$d, They don't give a fuck about the characters at all, whether it's one of the main protagonists or just an animal. (in d$d's eyes, to me Ghost isn't just an animal, but a main protagonist in his own right, or at least a part of one.) That comment just highlights what all of us here already know, the characters in d$d's so called "story" are all shallow interchangeable shells and have no bearing on the story aside from being toys for d$d to sadistically play with. The director basically said that they would have killed off Ghost, but for the fact that it was to difficult to film. All they cared about is having a character loved by the audience to pump full of enough arrows to make him look like a porcupine. :ack: Just sickening. :stillsick: 

D&D clearly liked the Red Wedding scene from the books (I believe it led them to start the show in the first place) but took this way too far. They seem to think that GRRM's modus operandi is that "everyone can die" and they've been trying to reproduce the shock of the RW ever since. However, unlike D&D, GRRM understands that the shock factor is something that has to be earned and killing off characters left and right is not something people like to read. For example, D&D's treatment of kin(g)slaying, especially this season, absolutely destroys the internal logic and consistency of the show. It seems that every episode, someone has to die which has caused my response to these deaths to always be the same "oh, whatever". A death isn't so shocking anymore when it happens all the time.

Plus D&D are sadly failing at making their shocks unpredictable. It's like the complete opposite. Who was really surprised by Rickon's death or the Vale army arriving at this point? Who honestly thought WunWun wouldn't be shot by Ramsay after he entered the gates?

So yeah, I agree with you that D&D don't give a damn about the characters and would happily kill off Ghost "for the shock effect". Next week, we're gonna see them try to reproduce the Red Wedding.

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5 hours ago, Liver and Onions said:

In regards to comments from other place about Rickon's death ("why should we care, we didn't know him"); it says something about the show that a young boy was just murdered within sight of his family, and the audience is able to find a reason not to care about this. You (generic GoT viewer) should care because if you haven't traveled with this young man, you have traveled with his older brother Jon and his sister Sansa. They care, why don't you? (and then you realize that Sansa doesn't care because she's evil now apparently? Are you supposed to be rooting for her?) 

And I agree- the dire wolves are just as important as the dragons. To neglect them or kill them offhandedly is poor storytelling. Ghost is Jon's shadow, Summer is Bran's other self. And Nymeria is never far from Arya's dreams. 

We do not know this kid? He was more prominent in the show than the books. 

If this scene doesnt make you cry, I do not know what would make you cry :dunno:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVlRkEqI2T0 

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10 hours ago, Tijgy said:

I have no problem with the fact if they had just used wolf looking big dogs. If they are very good trained, we would have still the hugs, wrestling games, ... (I always go for the adorable factor and not for the badass one). If they are speaking of them as dogs, they should have just dogs then :rolleyes:

The most frustrating thing is actually the CGI Dog at the end. We can have some dogs to eat Ramsay but we cannot have the wolves. :rolleyes: And I was already hoping for a long time to see Ghost eat someone. 

True dat, there is no doubt in my mind that they could have used creative camera work/editing to make a real dog into a scary direwolf.  Professionals should be able to accomplish that

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4 hours ago, Tijgy said:

We do not know this kid? He was more prominent in the show than the books. 

If this scene doesnt make you cry, I do not know what would make you cry :dunno:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVlRkEqI2T0 

Given the track record of the show, Bran will never ask about Rickon (or Osha, or Shaggydog) and there will be no emotional payoff to that lovely scene. I imagine many casual show viewers have forgotten about it. 

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On 22 giugno 2016 at 6:39 PM, Paxter Redwyne said:

bran and rickon in show are also much older than in books, so by westerosi standards they were nearly adults) is not very plausible. He have cooperated with murderers many times, and bronn who admitted to being able to kill newborn is even his friend. I also doubt that producers of show though about it when creating this scene. 

Yes you're right, they are older in the show than in the books, but when they disappeared they were still childs, I think in the show they're still younger than Tommen and they were childs when they vanished (Bran was about 8-9 I guess and Rickon is even younger than him). You were considered a child until 12 yo in the medieval times in the UK, I think Westeros is more or less the same. People even claim Sansa should have been considered a child (and she was 14, so not a child in that kinda medieval universe), definitely Bran and Rickon would be.

That interaction with Bronn, the fact itself he had to ask Bronn, he had to know, shows he was concerned about it just because he doesn't approve of it (otherwise why would he ask? he wouldn't care) and the way he treated JSlint also shows that he's against child murder. Plus, I'm not sure Bronn said the truth (I think it was an half truth).

Of course the producers thought about that alleged murder, because they put it in the dialogue and made Tyrion expressly mention it to Theon.

Tyrion: " last time we saw each ohter was in Winterfell, yes? You were making jokes about my height I seem to recall …"

Theon: (not denying he was an as** but saying it was a long time ago like 'I'm not that man anymore'): "it was a long time ago"

Tyrion:  "and how have things being going for you since then? Not so well I gather.  I can't imagine you would have murdered the Stark boys if things had been going well".

Theon: "I didn't murder the Stark boys …"

If Tyrion didn't care, he wouldn't bring it up. 

He sees Theon after years and he takes advantage of his position as the adviser of the Queen to bring up what bothers him about the guy, aka the fact that Theon made jokes about him being a dwarf and the fact he murdered the Stark boys (as far as Tyrion knows).

Which is not weird imo, even if he's a Lannister and in his own way proud to be one; trying ot explain myself better, I don't think it's weird he was bothered by the fact Theon (allegedly) killed them because - even considering the show only:

- he obviously remembers Bran (he designed a saddle specifically for him after Jon asked him to help his brother and he gave the project to the boy himself) and he had sympathy for him because he was a cripple (so not unlike himself, an outcast);

- he and Jon, being both outcast and bonding at the Wall, called each other 'friend';

- he is against child murder;

- he didn't approve of Ned's murder by Jeoffrey, he didn't approve of Bran's attempted murder by Jeoffrey and he didn't approve of the red wedding and called Robb and Catelyn's murder a 'crime';

- he felt sorry for Sansa having her family murdered (and they are also still married, at least to his knowledge - and I think he's not wrong in the end, but that would be for another thread), he tried to comfort her and was bothered by that sharade about the Starks losing the war during Jeoffrey and Maergery's marriage feast; he had also suggested Tywin to trade Sansa for Jamie, tried to protect her from Jeoffrey, never asked anything from her and didn't 'force' her in any way;

- besides Sansa, Jon and Bran, to whom he felt more connected to for various reasons, he has always been as respectful of the Starks as he could be in his position, he basically treated them fairly as competitors/enemies he admired and respected (as I said, he thought Ned honorable, had his ashes sent to Catelyn, wanted to give back Ned's sword, didn't undestimate Robb's skills when talking with Tywin, etc.);

- nowadays, if he had to choose, I think - that's just my personal opinion, though - that he'd align himself with Sansa and Jon against Cersei, Lannister or not. Especially if Jamie changed sides as well thanks to Brienne or Cersei's unfaithfullness or for whatever reason, but maybe even without him.

That's just to explain I don't find it weird that he was bothered (I don't know if angered is the right word) by the fact Theon was - allegedly - the murderer of the Starks boys.

Btw, the 'missing brothers' tihng is (another…) thing that align Sansa with Elizabeth of York.

As I was saying, it would be nice if he and Theon had the chance to really talk to each other but I doubt there will be screen time enough for that.

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13 hours ago, Liver and Onions said:

In regards to comments from other place about Rickon's death ("why should we care, we didn't know him"); it says something about the show that a young boy was just murdered within sight of his family, and the audience is able to find a reason not to care about this. You (generic GoT viewer) should care because if you haven't traveled with this young man, you have traveled with his older brother Jon and his sister Sansa. They care, why don't you? (and then you realize that Sansa doesn't care because she's evil now apparently? Are you supposed to be rooting for her?) 

And I agree- the dire wolves are just as important as the dragons. To neglect them or kill them offhandedly is poor storytelling. Ghost is Jon's shadow, Summer is Bran's other self. And Nymeria is never far from Arya's dreams. 

This! thank you. 

I always figured Rickon would die since he was the other stark kid with no pov in the books, like Rob. And granted it's the stark kid we know the less about and easier to forget, but that doesn't mean it's not incredibly sad. Rickon was so young when everybody left him, he just craved for family so much and for him to die a couple of steps of finally being reunited with Jon, it's just awfully painful. When you think of him never seeing Bran again, of Bran learning that he unknowingly sent Rickon to die. It's just as awful as when Rob and Cat were murdered when Arya was about to finally reunite with them. yet it was treated with far less importance. I think that's what make me mad,that they used him in a cheap way, making him run in a straight line and making RamsaySue kill him with a single arrow. It wasn't even used as an emotional scene but just as a way to make Jon's stupidity seem bigger.

It doesn't bother me that loved characters die, it bothers me the way the show treats their deaths, with no feeling anymore. just as excuses to execute the plot and get rid of characters they don't know how to deal with. 

They think the whole show value was in shocking deaths and in trying to over do it, they have completely removed all shock from them. It's not "no character is safe" anymore, because we all knew Arya and Jon wouldn't die, just like we knew Rickon, Shireen and Myrcella would. The only shock left is about just how stupidly those deaths can be executed. 

 

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8 hours ago, Liver and Onions said:

Given the track record of the show, Bran will never ask about Rickon (or Osha, or Shaggydog) and there will be no emotional payoff to that lovely scene. I imagine many casual show viewers have forgotten about it. 

Heart-breaking, really.

4 hours ago, LadyDoom said:

<>. 

They think the whole show value was in shocking deaths and in trying to over do it, they have completely removed all shock from them. It's not "no character is safe" anymore, because we all knew Arya and Jon wouldn't die, just like we knew Rickon, Shireen and Myrcella would. The only shock left is about just how stupidly those deaths can be executed. 

 

Well said.

I'm going to tell myself as consolation that the reason we don't have a Rickon PoV in the books is that he will end up being King in the North and kings, as we know, don't get the PoV. ;) That will tide me over until the next books.  If Rickon does die, I'm sure it won't feel devoid of sense or emotion as D&D have made it.

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