Discussing Sansa XXV: Who let the dogs out...

[Future Null Infinity]

37 minutes ago, throney said:

My problem with the show too much happens off screen. The audience is left to fill in the blanks, hence people coming to different conclusions to character motivation. If it weren’t for cast and showrunners’ interviews my interpretation of a scene would be completely different. It’s very disappointing of a show that is otherwise visually and musically very well crafted. It’s a shame that the writing is not up to the same standard.

I understand you opinion but I think that the problem is the audience, they don't want to wait a little bit to see the motivations, they want the motivations immediately but it's not how the story works, the story is full of hidden motivations, full of moves that the motivations will be revealed after 5 or 8 episodes, it's what make the appeal of game of thrones

My total fascination with LittleFinger character is exactly the hidden motivations, you can see him act but later his motivations will be revealed, if they gave us immediately his motivations then he will be a boring 1-dimensional character

[tinka10]

15 hours ago, Future Null Infinity said:

we need to wait and see episode 10 for the consequences and LF, and I don't buy LF wanted the death of Jon, there is no proof from the show suggesting it

I don't think he wanted him dead (although that would be convenient), but definitely not in power. In 605 he says to Sansa "a time may come when you need an army loyal to you," she say's she has an army, and LF accentuates the fact that they're not her army, but "Your brother's army...half-brother." LF wants Sansa in a position of power over Jon for some reason, and I think it's safe to assume for his own means. I guess we'll find out next week what that is. (Can't wait!)

[throney]

1 hour ago, Future Null Infinity said:

I understand you opinion but I think that the problem is the audience, they don't want to wait a little bit to see the motivations, they want the motivations immediately but it's not how the story works, the story is full of hidden motivations, full of moves that the motivations will be revealed after 5 or 8 episodes, it's what make the appeal of game of thrones

My total fascination with LittleFinger character is exactly the hidden motivations, you can see him act but later his motivations will be revealed, if they gave us immediately his motivations then he will be a boring 1-dimensional character

I didn't mean that Littlefinger needs a Bond villain exposition moment but that the onscreen narrative doesn't gel with what the actors and showrunners say afterwards. It's a problem with narrative execution, the plot drives these characters rather then the other way around.

[Future Null Infinity]

25 minutes ago, tinka10 said:

I don't think he wanted him dead (although that would be convenient), but definitely not in power. In 605 he says to Sansa "a time may come when you need an army loyal to you," she say's she has an army, and LF accentuates the fact that they're not her army, but "Your brother's army...half-brother." LF wants Sansa in a position of power over Jon for some reason, and I think it's safe to assume for his own means. I guess we'll find out next week what that is. (Can't wait!)

I see your point but If I put myself in LF's shoes, he knows that Bran (the rightful heir) is absent which make Sansa lady of winterfell temporarily until the return of Bran and he knows the Jon is a "bastard" so he can't fear anything from Jon, and LittleFinger doesn't want a position of power in all the cases, he loves also make friends that are in position of power, he's friend of SweetRobin, Cersei and Olenna 

[tinka10]

3 hours ago, Future Null Infinity said:

If I put myself in LF's shoes, he knows that Bran (the rightful heir) is absent which make Sansa lady of winterfell temporarily until the return of Bran and he knows the Jon is a "bastard" so he can't fear anything from Jon

There might be a slight hiccup concerning Sansa as the Lady of Winterfell. She's technically a Bolton, she no longer has the Stark name, which certain characters pointed out in previous episodes. I don't think the line of succession means much anymore, considering the only options are a woman, a bastard, and a cripple who can't sire any heirs. It could come down to the Lords and Ladies of The North deciding who they want to follow and, unfortunately for Sansa, she's not a particularly inspiring leader. They very well may back Jon. He was able to inspire men who had no reason to fight for him, to fight and die for him. It felt like LF made it clear that he wanted Sansa to be in the position of power, so Jon ruling Winterfell may put a wrench in his plans. I have no doubt LF will want to get closer to Jon, but as always, for his own means.

[WeCameFromNorth]

On 6/22/2016 at 7:02 PM, Maid So Fair said:

I wouldn't say it's just oversimplifying - it's the lack of consistency. Sansa in the show seems to pick a personality on a fortune wheel every time she appears on screen. This was especially apparent last season, but season 6 as well. One moment she's running to Jon because he's the only person who can be trusted to protect her unconditionally, the next she's withholding information. One moment she's wants to die while there's still something of her left, the next she's reluctant to cross a freezing river because 'she might die'. She has an epic moment where she tells LF off and next thing we know she's petitioning him for help. She insists they have to take WF back for Rickon then dismisses him as a dead man walking. She acts like a dim witted idiot and the next scene has her masterminding the Northern plot. What are we supposed to makes of this character?

This is second time in my brief life on this board that I found your explanation very clear and beautiful.

But I do believe that’s very clear what we are supposed to make of this character, Sophie Turner was screaming it for all the world to hear.

Strangely, I am so sad about that Sansa’s "triumph" above Ramsay. If I do love anything about Sansa, it’s her "courtesy is lady armour". I wish thousand gruesome deaths upon book and showRamsay, but I can bet my life that Sansa created by Mister Martin would never do what this show creation did. Little bit sad that people like it, too.

 

[gotviewer]

As to the Vale army, I think the main problem is everyone assumes Jon is the hero of the story and is rooting for him.  He gets a lot of understanding that other characters do not benefit from.  If Sansa had not left the wall to save her brothers and sisters...  If Sansa had made a deal with their arch-enemy the wildings that ends up alienating the Umbers so they kill Shaggy Dog and hand Rickon to a Sadist...If Sansa had made a military mistake out of emotion (or did that happen?)   I question whether it is the loss of men or that Jon did not win on his own despite terrible odds that has made people dislike Sansa.

Sansa does not hero worship Jon like Tormund, Davos, Sam, do.

For Sansa, I do not think the issue was what she said it was that Jon did not ask.  It did not occur to any of them that she could contribute something of value.  No one ever really thinks so and part of Sansa's struggle is to be independent and have her worth judged by her contributions not her family rank, her husband's position or a someone else placing her in a position of power. 

23 minutes ago, WeCameFromNorth said:

This is second time in my brief life on this board that I found your explanation very clear and beautiful.

But I do believe that’s very clear what we are supposed to make of this character, Sophie Turner was screaming it for all the world to hear.

Strangely, I am so sad about that Sansa’s "triumph" above Ramsay. If I do love anything about Sansa, it’s her "courtesy is lady armour". I wish thousand gruesome deaths upon book and showRamsay, but I can bet my life that Sansa created by Mister Martin would never do what this show creation did. Little bit sad that people like it, too.

 

Well said. 

 

[ShadowKitteh]

On June 19, 2016 at 7:31 PM, Pandean said:

Before the episode I turned to my friend and said "All my prayers will be answered if Sansa lets loose Ramsey's dogs on him and he dies by them"

 

AND IT HAPPENED

 

I am like basking in the afterglow of that cartharsis right now

 

I really do wish Jon & the Gang would've listened to her to begin with. She ultimately was right about Ramsey. I can kind of see the intelligence behind keeping the Vale soldiers a secret....Jon definitely underestimated Ramsey and so did Davos. They did the best they could, but Sansa did better.

 

I'm a little worried about what the "I'll always be a part of you" line means. I'm hoping it's just a "I'll always be inside your head" and not a SANSA IS PREGGERS!!!!

 

But I have to say, my, how Sansa has grown from S1E1.

If so, and she doesn't Tansy Tea herself, I shall haz a great disappoint and sadness.

 

Oh, and BRAVA on the dogs call! Enjoy that!!!!

[WeCameFromNorth]

On 6/22/2016 at 9:39 AM, Future Null Infinity said:

tell that to Ned, Robb, Cat and Rickon, I didn't say that Starks must become psycopaths or murderers, I'm saying that starks must remove some ideals from their heads and start acting "pragmatic", Jon and Sansa won this time because they thought about everything differently

War doesn’t need two willing sides to start, one is more then enough. If you didn’t want the war, and you were never educating yourself in such ugly things, you do whatever you can. One big thing that show did to Starks is completely rob them of whole northern story. Ned’s and Robb’s nobleness is not forgotten, and that, surprisingly, counts as something even in real world, such as it is. Otherwise we wouldn’t be honouring our fallen heroes. I never heard anyone call Leonidas and his 300 fools, or, let’s say, New Zealand soldiers who went to die in some foreign land for an abstract cause as fighting the evil, or fighting for general justice and freedom.   

I do agree about pragmatic, though. That bookJon knows too, with some other complicating elements, but that’s quite another story, of course.

[Woman of War]

Maybe it will be Baelish's method to get Jon out of the way as heir to Winterfell: He will reveal Jon's true parents to him, knowing that Jon the straightforward and upright guy will step back in favor of Sansa, being knocked out, ironically, by acting like Ned might have.

While Sansa takes the honor of getting Winterfell......and Baelish.

[WeCameFromNorth]

Oh, no, Woman of War, you always fight so vehemently for women’s right to be women, not anybody’s marionettes. You can’t say that last thing in your post, not even ironically. 

I have no idea what showLittlefinger might do, but I don’t think bookLittlefinger will be satisfied with someone just step back. He would see to it that Jon end properly and unquestionably dead.

[Future Null Infinity]

23 minutes ago, Woman of War said:

Maybe it will be Baelish's method to get Jon out of the way as heir to Winterfell: He will reveal Jon's true parents to him, knowing that Jon the straightforward and upright guy will step back in favor of Sansa, being knocked out, ironically, by acting like Ned might have.

While Sansa takes the honor of getting Winterfell......and Baelish.

some people said that Baelish will tell jon that to escape death, and others don't believe in that, they found it very cheap way to reveal such important information and it's the job of Bran

As for Sansa, she will not accept the lordship of winterfell and will crown Jon as KitN and lord of Winterfell

[Chib]

11 hours ago, Future Null Infinity said:

I think it's not shown yet but Baelish actor (Aidan Gillen) gave some hints about why LF will come to help Sansa :

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/05/11/game-thrones-littlefinger

"there’s a level of atonement in relation to Sansa and my misjudgment of Ramsay Bolton. A lot of what I’m up to is atonement and really trying to align myself the right people"

it's clear that LittelFinger will not ask for reward, it was an act for redemption

 

If it's so then D&D are horrible writers. LF was stupid enough to give Sansa to Boltons without any plan at all? This is not the LF people know. Lol Lol lol, another character get scrambled by D&D just because they messed up Sansa's story arc.

[Chib]

29 minutes ago, Woman of War said:

Maybe it will be Baelish's method to get Jon out of the way as heir to Winterfell: He will reveal Jon's true parents to him, knowing that Jon the straightforward and upright guy will step back in favor of Sansa, being knocked out, ironically, by acting like Ned might have.

While Sansa takes the honor of getting Winterfell......and Baelish.

 

 

Number of the sense that was made: none

Who will believe Jon to be Lyanna's child? Even Jon himself might just look at LF and say: "Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, I don't buy it."

And even if Jon believes it, who else believes that he is a Targ bastard? 

[Woman of War]

9 minutes ago, Chib said:

Number of the sense that was made: none

Who will believe Jon to be Lyanna's child? Even Jon himself might just look at LF and say: "Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, I don't buy it."

And even if Jon believes it, who else believes that he is a Targ bastard? 

You obviously did not get my argument.

In my scenario there is no need for anyone to believe Baelish that Jon is the child of R and L. The only one who has to be convinced is Jon himself. If Baelish can manage that Jon will do the rest: Do the honorable but maybe not cunning thing and step back for Sansa without giving a proper explanation to others. Actually Jon should better keep the secret for now, public knowledge might put him in danger, Baelish would already be one person too much who knows.

Baelish might give Sansa WF ("I told you, I'd arrange this for you!) and he gets his reward.

[Chib]

Just now, Woman of War said:

You obviously did not get my argument.

In my scenario there is no need for anyone to believe Baelish that Jon is the child of R and L. The only one who has to be convinced is Jon himself. If Baelish can manage that Jon will do the rest: Do the honorable but maybe not cunning thing and step back for Sansa without giving a proper explanation to others. Actually Jon should better keep the secret for now, public knowledge might put him in danger, Baelish would already be one person too much who knows.

Baelish might give Sansa WF ("I told you, I'd arrange this for you!) and he gets his reward.

 

The issue is it's even hard for Jon to believe his parentage. I mean, if he heard it from his family (Ned if he were alive, or Bran if he comes back) he would believe. But LF is... you know.... not that much of a trusthworthy person. 

[Future Null Infinity]

30 minutes ago, Chib said:

If it's so then D&D are horrible writers. LF was stupid enough to give Sansa to Boltons without any plan at all? This is not the LF people know. Lol Lol lol, another character get scrambled by D&D just because they messed up Sansa's story arc.

I think you are missing the point my friend, the plan shown in the series is the plan but he didn't know about the "psychopath" nature of Ramsay, he used her without her knowldge but he didn't want her to be hurt in the process 

[Chib]

1 minute ago, Future Null Infinity said:

I think you are missing the point my friend, the plan shown in the series is the plan but he didn't know about the "psychopath" nature of Ramsay, he used her without her knowldge but he didn't want her to be hurt in the process 

 

 

I am still puzzled. LF is not supposed to be THAT naive. I mean he did not hear of what Roose Bolton and his son did to others? 

[Future Null Infinity]

2 minutes ago, Chib said:

I am still puzzled. LF is not supposed to be THAT naive. I mean he did not hear of what Roose Bolton and his son did to others? 

it was the biggest question of 2015, the writers and the actors said that Baelish didn't know about Ramsay bolton "the savage"

[Chib]

Just now, Future Null Infinity said:

it was the biggest question of 2015, the writers and the actors said that Baelish didn't know about Ramsay bolton "the savage"

 

Face palm. I mean the biggest disappointment of their writing, to me, is not Jon or Sansa, not Tyrion or Jamie, it's LF. They should have let let the Boltons abducted her. It would be easier and make more sense.