Post show Battle analysis

[SchpaceLord]

I understand killing the enemy and maybe sacrificing some of your men, but it looks like Ramsey just killed off most of his mounted troops (of whom he doesn't have too many, unless there was a big reserve somewhere?). Aren't most of the nobles mounted? So, was he killing off squires and sons of vassal houses by unleashing all the arrows? That part does not make sense to me.

Also, as someone mentioned, Sansa could've said something like "hey, LF was offering me knights of the vale, 1st I said no, but now I wrote to him and it would be pretty awesome if he comes"

 

[RobertF]

Why the hell didn't Jon Snow deploy Wun Wun more effectively in the battle? Wun Wun could have outflanked the Bolton battle line or even stepped over it. Or simply wielded a big piece of timber and cleared the enemy ranks.

[montey13]

Jon really had no choice ....Ramsay turned the tables on him ....remember when he said he wanted to make him angry so he would charge the middle and have the sides collapse (hannibal tactic by the way) well by getting him to try and save Rickon Jon had no choice ....he was the rightful stark heir....the piles of bodies was a bit much though ....he should have sent wun wun like a wrecking ball through the shield wall....at that point ....he had nothing to lose

 

 

[montey13]

45 minutes ago, SchpaceLord said:

I understand killing the enemy and maybe sacrificing some of your men, but it looks like Ramsey just killed off most of his mounted troops (of whom he doesn't have too many, unless there was a big reserve somewhere?). Aren't most of the nobles mounted? So, was he killing off squires and sons of vassal houses by unleashing all the arrows? That part does not make sense to me.

Also, as someone mentioned, Sansa could've said something like "hey, LF was offering me knights of the vale, 1st I said no, but now I wrote to him and it would be pretty awesome if he comes"

 

I think they were trying to show that ramsay is just a butcher and he didn't give a hoot about his own people being slaughtered....his one great tactic was Rickon and getting Jon to commit early ...the whole thing with the arrow attacks was probably taken from the battle of Crecy....where English longbowmen decimated the French army

[Eric Xayavong]

1 hour ago, SchpaceLord said:

Why was Ramsey killing his cavalry with archers?

Couldn't Sansa have mentioned that LF was coming to Jon?

 

I feel like she willingly let Jon sacrifice himself in order to lay her own trap. Slightly warning him enough to not suicide attack but keeping enough information hidden for Jon to engage. If it was revealed that there was a bigger army then Ramsay would just hide in Winterfell. She knew where to meet Littlefinger. Of course this is kind of flawed too because having another kingdom back you would sway the north...

[bfin]

1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Jon is a crappy battle commander if he let's another commander play him like that.  Ramsey played himmlike a violin.  It took riping off Tolkien to get him out of the jam he had created.

He killed his brother. Pretty tough to stay level headed. Crappy battle commander? He had a solid plan vs a much bigger army but the story needed him to charge. Heroes don't sit back and try to win, they go get it. Have you ever watched tv or movies? This isn't the books where you can spend 59 days reading POVs from characters nobody gives a fuck about. Shit has to happen fast. In 15-20 years you guys will get the last two books and I'm sure it will be "better"

[Pies are coming]

1 hour ago, SchpaceLord said:

I understand killing the enemy and maybe sacrificing some of your men, but it looks like Ramsey just killed off most of his mounted troops (of whom he doesn't have too many, unless there was a big reserve somewhere?). Aren't most of the nobles mounted? So, was he killing off squires and sons of vassal houses by unleashing all the arrows? That part does not make sense to me.

Also, as someone mentioned, Sansa could've said something like "hey, LF was offering me knights of the vale, 1st I said no, but now I wrote to him and it would be pretty awesome if he comes"

 

How many mounted troops did Jon have? The wildings aren't mounted. That leaves three minor Northern houses, which contributed with less than 1000 men total. So 300-400 heavy horsemen? Ramsay probably has at least a thousand, so he can shoot at his own forces and still have enough reserves to pursue in the aftermath.

As for killing noblemen, we did see Karstark since the battle started, so it may be that killing noblemen is part of his strategy - he weakens potential enemies while destroying his enemies.

Ramsay was brilliant

[Red Tiger]

1 minute ago, Pies are coming said:

How many mounted troops did Jon have? The wildings aren't mounted. That leaves three minor Northern houses, which contributed with less than 1000 men total. So 300-400 heavy horsemen? Ramsay probably has at least a thousand, so he can shoot at his own forces and still have enough reserves to pursue in the aftermath.

As for killing noblemen, we did see Karstark since the battle started, so it may be that killing noblemen is part of his strategy - he weakens potential enemies while destroying his enemies.

Ramsay was brilliant

Taken straight from the books, with Roose doing the same with his infantry against Tywin.

[Kurkuas]

Hallo to all here, it's my first post on this forum, excuse spelling mistakes.

The battle was impressive to watch - the clash of the cavalry, the shield wall formation and other things ... 

But imo it was nothing about tactics, but showing the terror of medieval battle fields: How did the Bolton troops came to the rear of the wildlings? Where did the massive Bolton infantry from the beginning of the battle got lost? 

It would've been great, if D&D had created a second Battle of Cannae, but anyway the outcome was clear.

[I am a Dragon]

1 hour ago, SchpaceLord said:

 Aren't most of the nobles mounted? So, was he killing off squires and sons of vassal houses by unleashing all the arrows? That part does not make sense to me.

I doubt they expect the audience to think about it or even think at all by the looks of things.

[lancerman]

The big conceits of the battle were:

1. Ramsay was at such a huge advantage he didn't really care too much about missteps. Same reason he beat Stannis. Not because he was start. He just had overwhelming numbers. So in playing with that, Ramsay was willing to incur losses to do damage.

2. Jon wasn't going to give up on Rickon. Rickon was never going to make it to Jon. Jon was just lucky they didn't rain arrows on hi

Ramsay had the numbers to toy with Jon and he was able to rattle him. The battle was just a mindgame for Ramsay.

 

[caravaggio]

I feel like bookJon has shown he can be a good commander, not so sure about showJon.

At least give Wun Wun a club for crying out loud.

What the hell Sansa? A little heads up to Jon at least.

I think it would have been worth the money to include Ghost in the fight. Everyone would have been even more on the edge of their seat for fear of his life.

[Howdyphillip]

My recap of Hon Snow's battle tactics. 

[tmug]

1 hour ago, King Edd of House Tollet said:

To make Jon look a little bit less dumb they could have made Sansa told him about the Vale Knights, that part is bugging me, she had no reason at all to not tell him

Just like his father Ned , eh? Chip of the ole block I'd say. Just about as foolish as Ned played the game out in Kings Landing. Only that he didnt have Sansa at her full wits just yet.Luckily for Jon.

[Ser Yorick Ampersand]

Ramsay sees cavalry charging and sends his own cavalry head on?

He has a ton of men with pikes! Pikes are super-effective against cavalry!! Everyone who played Total War knows that!!!

He also has a ton of archers who could take down that cavalry just like in the Battle of Crecy!

The last thing you would do is send your cavalry head on against the enemys cavalry IN THE FOOKIN BEGUINING OF THE BATTLE! Specially if you have the high ground higher numbers and long range advantage.

 

I hate Sansa more now then ever. If she had spoken to Jon about the Vale's army they could have saved so many lives and could have planned the battle knowing they had the upper hand of the element of surprise. Lead the Bolton army to think they had the advantage and crush them.

Seven hells! Someone please tell me there was a valid reason for Sansa not telling Jon about the Vale Army because I can't see any.

If I were Jon I would be FURIOUS with Sansa.

[Kytheros]

Just now, Ser Yorick Ampersand said:

Ramsay sees cavalry charging and sends his own cavalry head on?

He has a ton of men with pikes! Pikes are super-effective against cavalry!! Everyone who played Total War knows that!!!

He also has a ton of archers who could take down that cavalry just like in the Battle of Crecy!

The last thing you would do is send your cavalry head on against the enemys cavalry IN THE FOOKIN BEGUINING OF THE BATTLE! Specially if you have the high ground higher numbers and long range advantage.

 

I hate Sansa more now then ever. If she had spoken to Jon about the Vale's army they could have saved so many lives and could have planned the battle knowing they had the upper hand of the element of surprise. Lead the Bolton army to think they had the advantage and crush them.

Seven hells! Someone please tell me there was a valid reason for Sansa not telling Jon about the Vale Army because I can't see any.

If I were Jon I would be FURIOUS with Sansa.

I've only been able to come up with two reasons for Sansa not telling Jon:

1 - She was deliberately setting Jon up to get screwed

2 - She doesn't want Jon to know she asked Littlefinger for help because she's planning on screwing over Littlefinger somehow

[lancerman]

1 minute ago, Ser Yorick Ampersand said:

Ramsay sees cavalry charging and sends his own cavalry head on?

He has a ton of men with pikes! Pikes are super-effective against cavalry!! Everyone who played Total War knows that!!!

He also has a ton of archers who could take down that cavalry just like in the Battle of Crecy!

The last thing you would do is send your cavalry head on against the enemys cavalry IN THE FOOKIN BEGUINING OF THE BATTLE! Specially if you have the high ground higher numbers and long range advantage.

 

I hate Sansa more now then ever. If she had spoken to Jon about the Vale's army they could have saved so many lives and could have planned the battle knowing they had the upper hand of the element of surprise. Lead the Bolton army to think they had the advantage and crush them.

Seven hells! Someone please tell me there was a valid reason for Sansa not telling Jon about the Vale Army because I can't see any.

If I were Jon I would be FURIOUS with Sansa.

You think they have Total War in Westeros?

Seriously though, Ramsay isn't much of a commander. He just has the better army. He was willing to fuck around with his troops to get his enemy in a death trap.

To much unknown about the Vale to be fair. She might not have even known they were coming until Jon marched off.

 

[Ser Yorick Ampersand]

2 minutes ago, lancerman said:

You think they have Total War in Westeros?

Seriously though, Ramsay isn't much of a commander. He just has the better army. He was willing to fuck around with his troops to get his enemy in a death trap.

To much unknown about the Vale to be fair. She might not have even known they were coming until Jon marched off.

 

She didn't know they were coming? She sent a letter to LF two episodes ago! Thats enough time to send and receive a letter.

LF wanted to help from the beguinning.

Didn't LF receive the letter?

How did she find the army if they were going to the Vale?

How did they get there so quickly if they were not coming?

 

I find it too hard to excuse Sansa.

I think this is wishfull thinking just like all the Arya-is-pretending-not-to-be-stupid theory all over again... And we already know how that turned out.

[Forlong the Fat]

2 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Jon is a crappy battle commander if he let's another commander play him like that.  Ramsey played himmlike a violin.  It took riping off Tolkien to get him out of the jam he had created.

Having another army come in to turn the tide of battle belongs to Tolkein, now? This comment makes it sound like you've read two things in your life, and can't allow for the possibility of a plot element to exist outside those two things. 

[lancerman]

1 minute ago, Ser Yorick Ampersand said:

She didn't know they were coming? She sent a letter to LF two episodes ago! Thats enough time to send and receive a letter.

LF wanted to help from the beguinning.

Didn't LF receive the letter?

How did she find the army if they were going to the Vale?

How did they get there so quickly if they were not coming?

 

I find it too hard to excuse Sansa.

I think this is wishfull thinking just like all the Arya-is-pretending-not-to-be-stupid theory all over again... And we already know how that turned out.

Well lets say she did know. She tells Jon. The Vale comes. No way is Ramsay taking his troops in the field. He's prepping for siege and all it takes is a few weeks and one storm.