Sansa's displeasure [POSSIBLE SPOILERS]

[bb1180]

26 minutes ago, tormond said:

Nobody is saying that he's plotting against her, we are all saying that she acted strange and might/will make a power move against him, and all the hints are there.

That's the thing,  though. Sansa's actions are not motivated by a desire for power over Jon.  She has the Stark name and the better claim.  They've never argued over who will rule Winterfell after the battle. It may happen,  but it hasn't yet and it would seem out of character for Jon to do so.  Instead,  Sansa's issue is that she doesn't fully trust Jon's judgement or that he necessarily has her best interests in mind,  and that's all based on manipulation by LF.  It looks like that may get sorted soon enough. 

Personally,  I think Jon and Sansa actually very much want what's best for the other,  but they're having trouble getting past their post-Winterfell experiences and the resulting trust issues they each have,  Sansa in particular.  Now that Ramsay is out of the way and LF likely will be soon enough,  I think that's going to start to resolve itself.  

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

3 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

Lol, the Sansa hate is strong is this forum.

When Sansa looks at Jon running towards Ramsay, she looks worried. Period. Her brother is chasing Ramsay with Tormund and Wun Wun. The odds don't look good.

The fact that she got to WF so fast (like 2 minutes after Jon does) should give away how much she loves him. She rode to WF as soon as she saw Jon going after Ramsay.

 

Sansa loves Jon as a brother? Loll, I don't buy that. She only wants revenge and Jon is one of her pawns. He is easy to manipulate because he is her family and a man who can fight. That's it.

[tallTale]

8 minutes ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

Sansa loves Jon as a brother? Loll, I don't buy that. She only wants revenge and Jon is one of her pawn. He is easy to manipulate because he is her family and a man who can fight. That's it.

What is interesting to me is that it was Sansa who pleaded with Jon to help her reclaim Winterfell, then withholds vital strategic information from him right before the battle. Jon has become a pawn to her. 

[Ingelheim]

Just now, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

Sansa loves Jon as a brother? Loll, I don't buy that. She only wants revenge and Jon is one of her pawns. He is easy to manipulate because he is her family and a man who can fight. That's it.

Buy what you want. I just can't see how anyone would think Sansa is simply using Jon and doesn't give a fuck about him. That's not true. That's not what GOT has shown us.

I'm pretty sure the finale will put an end to these thoughts. I'm sure LF will die by her doing.

Also, I have no problem with her smiling at Ramsay's death. That's the man who raped and tortured her for weeks. That's the man who just killed her little brother. She should have been laughing at him.

[bb1180]

10 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

Lol, the Sansa hate is strong on this forum.

When Sansa looks at Jon running towards Ramsay, she looks worried. Period. Her brother is chasing Ramsay with Tormund and Wun Wun. The odds don't look good.

The fact that she got to WF so fast (like 2 minutes after Jon does) should give away how much she loves him. She rode to WF as soon as she saw Jon going after Ramsay.

 

Agreed on all counts.

[Red Tiger]

2 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

Buy what you want. I just can't see how anyone would think Sansa is simply using Jon and doesn't give a fuck about him. That's not true. That's not what GOT has shown us.

I'm pretty sure the finale will put an end to these thoughts. I'm sure LF will die by her doing.

Also, I have no problem with her smiling at Ramsay's death. That's the man who raped and tortured her for weeks. That's the man who just killed her little brother. She should have been laughing at him.

I agree 100%, but im not betting on LF dying this season, next season maybe.

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

9 minutes ago, tallTale said:

What is interesting to me is that it was Sansa who pleaded with Jon to help her reclaim Winterfell, then withholds vital battle information from him right before the battle. Jon has become a pawn to her. 

I still think it's stupid thing to do. Yes she doesn't trust Jon I can understand, after all they were never been close in the first place. But he is technically the only family she has now, his win or defeat means the most to her. Let's say she can easily manipulate him in doing what she wants, then she should do anything to ensure that he and his friends will have less damage as much as possible. Because they can be very useful to her. Yet she technically ignored them and didn't give them the vital information. I mean what Sansa did wasn't pragmatic at all. I might dislike my co-wokers but once we're on the same boat, there is some information we must share, especially this has to do with life and death. 

Further more, if the Vale army is in her hands, technically why let the Wildings die in vain? The only reason I can think of is that, Vale army wouldn't come only for Sansa. They came because there's already a Stark army (no matter how small) going against Ramsay. They came because there's Jon and Rickon. Yes they actually won the battle but they came just as an aid, not as the cause, not as the leader. The Vale needs an official Stark army to back up their fight against Ramsay. Thus this is where Jon (temporary leader) and Rickon (the rightful Stark heir) come in. Sansa couldn't win the Winterfell just for herself.

[adiman83]

1 hour ago, SeventhReign said:

 

Like a simple beheading? I don't know. That's too quick for someone like Ramsay.

I just think it's poetic justice. He fed so many people to those dogs ... including his brother. So I thought it was a fitting end, from a writing standpoint at least. It was a good symbolization, showing that he had well and truly lost, if even his dogs have turned on him. I guess I see where you're coming from though.

I get the poetic justice thing. And Ramsay got a taste of his own medicine, I agree with that as well. I just feel it kind of goes against the way Ned raised his children. Sansa basically wiped her feet with everything her father taught them. 

What I'm saying is if Jon would've been the one to get rid of Ramsay, not Sansa, he probably would've condemned him to death officially and behead him. The way he did with Janos Slynt and the way Robb did with Rickard Karstark. In other words, Jon is Ned's child more than Sansa is right now.  

[Red Tiger]

1 minute ago, adiman83 said:

I get the poetic justice thing. And Ramsay got a taste of his own medicine, I agree with that as well. I just feel it kind of goes against the way Ned raised his children. Sansa basically wiped her feet with everything her father taught them. 

 

Well considering what good Ned's principles and teachings did him when playing the game of thrones, I dont blame Sansa.

[bb1180]

4 minutes ago, adiman83 said:

What I'm saying is if Jon would've been the one to get rid of Ramsay, not Sansa, he probably would've condemned him to death officially and behead him.

I don't know.  If Sansa hadn't shown up,  Jon was probably going to beat Ramsay to death,  but seeing her caused Jon to snap out of it.  

[Ingelheim]

13 minutes ago, Red Tiger said:

I agree 100%, but im not betting on LF dying this season, next season maybe.

I think LF is a goner after 6x10 ends. It's just what I think it will happen.

The only way D&D could really piss me off right now is through LF...if he gets to marry Sansa, or make Jon and her fight and split, I'll be really angry.

[Ssangkall]

2 hours ago, ummester said:

What, you think Sansa set it up to have Jon's forces eliminated, so that Jon has no power over her in the North? That would be cool, if so - but I don't think the show is being that complicated anymore.

Mind blown.  Now THAT is some good ole fashioned strategery

[farm_ecology]

2 hours ago, SeventhReign said:

 

Like a simple beheading? I don't know. That's too quick for someone like Ramsay.

I just think it's poetic justice. He fed so many people to those dogs ... including his brother. So I thought it was a fitting end, from a writing standpoint at least. It was a good symbolization, showing that he had well and truly lost, if even his dogs have turned on him. I guess I see where you're coming from though.

While it was somewhat poetic justice to have him killed by the tools of his own murders, I think it would have been really great to have Jon kill him by a beheading. It would have nothing to do with what Ramsay did or didn't deserve, but would showcase the Stark difference between the two Bastards, and would have ended the battle putting Jon in a very regal light..

[DirewolfDave]

I expected Ramsay's death to be ALMOST exactly as it was. Except I thought it was going to be Jon loosing Ghost on Ramsay while he and Sansa watched. I thought the 'poetic justice' was going to be something to highlight the whole dogs vs (Dire)wolves angle.

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

1 hour ago, Ingelheim said:

Buy what you want. I just can't see how anyone would think Sansa is simply using Jon and doesn't give a fuck about him. That's not true. That's not what GOT has shown us.

I'm pretty sure the finale will put an end to these thoughts. I'm sure LF will die by her doing.

Also, I have no problem with her smiling at Ramsay's death. That's the man who raped and tortured her for weeks. That's the man who just killed her little brother. She should have been laughing at him.

She doesn't like Jon that much. She's with him only because he is her LAST choice. And LF has planned a seed in her that he is only her half-brother bastard so he shouldn't be trusted. Not to mention her mother always hated him. I'm sure she wouldn't hide anything from him had he were Robb. 

[adiman83]

38 minutes ago, farm_ecology said:

While it was somewhat poetic justice to have him killed by the tools of his own murders, I think it would have been really great to have Jon kill him by a beheading. It would have nothing to do with what Ramsay did or didn't deserve, but would showcase the Stark difference between the two Bastards, and would have ended the battle putting Jon in a very regal light..

Exactly my point. 

[Red Tiger]

43 minutes ago, farm_ecology said:

While it was somewhat poetic justice to have him killed by the tools of his own murders, I think it would have been really great to have Jon kill him by a beheading. It would have nothing to do with what Ramsay did or didn't deserve, but would showcase the Stark difference between the two Bastards, and would have ended the battle putting Jon in a very regal light..

Im thinking he'll do this to Harald Karstark, mirroring what Robb did to Rickard.

[robasp2]

6 hours ago, Kytheros said:

To be fair, Sansa is firmly ahead of Jon in the Stark order of Succession. Jon is only an acknowledged bastard, not a legitimized one. That means he's at the back of the line. Arya is ahead of Jon in the succession.

Even if Jon were a legitimized bastard, it would still be arguable as to whether or or not he came before his trueborn sisters, and that sort of thing is decided on a case by case basis.

 

Jon's not exactly covered in glory after that battle, either. he would have lost that battle if not for the Knights of the Vale coming in at the end, after most of Jon's supporters were killed - including basically all his cavalry (cavalry = men from Northern Houses, not wildlings)

Agreed. She is the stark successor. She is suposed to be warden of north.

Was that how they showed her? They turned her instantly into a cocky "ruler".She was disloyal to her own brother. She hid the 10000 army strong vale from her brother.almost twice ramseys number, they showed little finger to be her new "buddy", proud that she is the only reason they won the war (Remember without Wun Wun they would have to retreat and return with seige weapons). She has a sort of disgust to Jon. And oh Jon, they made him the most useless character in the battle (ironically titled battle of the bastards.

All of this^ why? Poor writing. That is why.

They wanted Little fingers army a last moment enrty (Just in time entry: trademark). So they had to butcher Sansa character, her relation, Jons character. Just for that dramatic entry that has already been too overdone.

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

4 minutes ago, robasp2 said:

Agreed. She is the stark successor. She is suposed to be warden of north.

Was that how they showed her? She was disloyal to her own brother. She hid the 10000 army strong vale from her brother.almost twice ramseys number, they showed little finger to be her new "buddy", proud that she is the only reason they won the war (Remember without Wun Wun they would have to retreat and return with seige weapons). She has a sort of disgust to Jon. And oh Jon, they made him the most useless character in the battle (ironically titled battle of the bastards.

All of this^ why? Poor writing. That is why.

They wanted Little fingers army a last moment enrty (Just in time entry: trademark). So they had to butcher Sansa character, her relation, Jons character. Just for that dramatic entry that has already been too overdone.

This says everything!! 

[Rumy Stark]

9 hours ago, Fiddlefinger said:

This thread is completely idiotic. You're reading too much into her expression. The show doesn't have time for Sansa to hate Jon. There may not even be much time to settle accounts with LF; he might even just be offed in Ep 10. In the Sans thread I showed that there is no reason to think Sansa cost anybody their lives. She didn't know when LF would show up. She might have ridden out to hurry him along. Jon and Sans are on the same side. Sheesh, you just hate Sansa because she's a head taller than Jon Snow.

I mean this, basically. The show hasn't given us any reason to think Sansa dislikes Jon; the opposite, in fact. She didn't trust him enough to tell him about LF (really she didn't trust LF and didn't want him involved if she could help it), but everything else she's done suggests she cares very deeply about Jon. The reunion scene in ep 4 was beautiful and heartfelt on both parts. They teamed up after that in a very real way and worked together to try to rally the north (she even told Brienne to leave her cause she was safe in Jon's hand, and her reasoning was "he's my brother, he won't hurt me," so it's really weird to me that people think she'd then turn on him???), and she was really upset when she thought he wasn't taking Ramsay seriously. I interpreted her look as fear, since he was running, basically alone, towards Winterfell that still had some reinforcements. Sansa's internal monologue, "Jon, gods, I just saved you what are you doing why!" She might also have been annoyed. But not that he was alive--for the opposite reason. 

8 hours ago, Red Tiger said:

I dont understand what you guys were expecting of her. Was she supposed to smile at seeing Jon chasing Ramsay? She smiled when the Vale forces came in to kill the Bolton army, but when Jon chased Ramsay nothing was certain. Her brother is gonna chase Ramsay to the gates of Winterfell with Wun Wun and Tormund, chances of Jon actually surviving that arent certain.

If Sansa wanted Jon dead, she would never have told Jon about Ramsay's games, being careful, waiting until they have more men and she was right about Rickon being doomed from the start, this is Ramsay we're talking about.

This yes. 

7 hours ago, adiman83 said:

Am I the only one that was a bit freaked out by Sansa this episode? She fed Ramsay to the dogs and stood there and watched him getting ripped to shreds by his hounds and when she left, she smiled. 

I didn't like Ramsay, never did, but nobody deserves to die like that. Not even Ramsay. And that's not a behaviour worthy of a Stark.  

I think Sansa went a bit dark in this episode, and it was unsettling, but I think it was the perfect end for Ramsay and I am not surprised that Sansa went there. Think about what she's been exposed to over the past six years, think about what she's been through. Maybe she's Ned's daughter, but she was always more her mother's daughter than her father's and she was a kid when he died and instead she was basically raised in the really brutal KL where the people who were kindest to her were The Hound who was still not kind, LF who was always scheming, and Tyrion eventually who has no misunderstanding of how dark their world is. Since then things have only gotten worse for her. Sansa will never be Ned reincarnate, and it'd honestly be boring if she was. We can only hope she doesn't go totally dark, and that the Stark that's left in her keeps her sane. 

7 hours ago, ummester said:

That said, I found it hard to take seriously because Ramsay's dogs eating him was just fucking stupid. If they wanted a nasty way for Ramsay to die, they could have flayed him slowly, fed him his own testicles, crushed his testicles, pulled out his eys, his fingernails, cut and salted him, drawn and quartered him - there are countless things they could have done then the stupidity of having his own dogs eat him.

So Sansa letting Ramsay's arrogance take him down (that's exactly what the dogs were) is worse than flaying and torturing him???? I don't see a world where either Sansa or Jon tortures someone to death like that. 

5 hours ago, Xarkar said:

I dont get why they didnt just execute him though.  Jon beats him sensless then they just leave him?

My impression was that seeing Sansa reminded Jon that Ramsay wasn't his to finish. D&D confirmed that on the inside the ep.