Anyone still want to claim this is a book event?

[aFeastForDragons]

People are getting very confused with the show here. Sansa has nothing to do with Ramsey and very very little with Winterfell right now. The whole Winterfell arc was Theon's in the books but they changed that in the show and gave it to Sansa and dumbed down his part way down.

Sansa somehow showing up to with a Vale army after crossing an entire enemy owned kingdom in a blizzard where armies are stuck beneath several feet of snow to attack the Boltons/Freys/remaining Northern houses who will be safely camped behind the walls of Winterfell makes no sense in so many ways.

[zorkman]

2 hours ago, aFeastForDragons said:

Sansa somehow showing up to with a Vale army after crossing an entire enemy owned kingdom in a blizzard where armies are stuck beneath several feet of snow to attack the Boltons/Freys/remaining Northern houses who will be safely camped behind the walls of Winterfell makes no sense in so many ways.

As you mention to get up there they would have to pass the Frey's stronghold of the Twin castles, which is the main access between North/South. It is so pivotal that this was why Robb/Catlyn Stark had to do an alliance with the Frey's for safe passage, and ended up being there undoing. They are hardly going to let an army of vale troops north to help attack their army helping the Bolton's. If they do they will be severely depleted if they managed to get through.

[Maia]

9 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

It won't happen like it did in the show but certain points will be hit.

 

Certain points might be hit in some form or another. Including when similar events will happen in different locations or to different characters.

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- Winterfell will end up back with the Starks

 

Eventually, yes. After the Others are defeated and driven back into the far north. Rickon may return to Winterfell for a short time thanks to Stannis, before the humans will have to retreat south and  abandon it to the Others.

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- Ramsey will die

 

Yes. He may even get torn apart by his dogs, but courtesy of Bran and possibly Bloodraven.

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-Stannis will die, achieve nothing, tragic ending based on his own character flaws.

 

Yes and no. He will achieve some things - i.e. defeat the Boltons, but in the end it will turn out to be mostly for nothing, because the Others will get through, while he is preoccupied with winning the North. He would have delayed their coming though, as I am sure that they planned to use Mance's army as their battering ram, so that's something. 

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- Sansa will come north with LF and a Vale army.

 

No. By the time she might come north - after the defeat of the Others, possibly even at the beginning of Spring, she would have already dealt with LF. LF, for his part isn't stupid enough to get involved in a winter war in Russia in the North. Particularly since he probably would have to cede command of the army to somebody else, not being a military man himself. And his situation is precarious enough that it would be downright stupid. Tywin's advice is still sound - let them kill each other during winter and by spring they will be weak and starving. Make your move then. Not that the whole Othercalypse would fit into LF's plans anyway.
 

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- Jon will be brought back to life will be involved in Northern politics, with help from the Wildlings.

 

Yes to the first part, but the wildlings will quickly get decimated after the Others break through. Jon will have to lead the northmen in a long retreat south, fending off the Others nipping at their heals, so some involvement in politics will be required. He won't fight the Boltons, because Stannis will have settled them by the time Jon comes around.
 

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- Rickon will die.

 

Yes, but under different circumstances. He might even die of a sickness - wouldn't _that_be a shocker!
 

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- Dany will come back to Meereen with a Dothraki army and end the battle there.

 

Not the current battle. That one will decided by the forces that are already in place. When Volantene navy arrives, maybe. Though I expect significant parts of it to rebel and join her.

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- Dany will use ships by some ironborn (Victarion or Euron) to get to Westeros.

 

And Volantene ships. She won't sail directly to Westeros, though. As pointed out in ADwD, everybody but the Southern Islanders are afraid to sail out of sight of the landmarks. And thanks to Barristan, she has a debt to pay in Pentos. And information to discover?  

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

I don't think the others are coming through the wall anytime soon in the books 

[Lord_Ravenstone]

On 6/20/2016 at 11:42 AM, Merengues said:

No, but it can hint to how will the battle of ice will go down.

The issue with this battle in the show is that Sansa, Littlefinger, Rickon and Davos are not in their book locations; The vale is too wrapped up in their issues, and it would be impossible to bring an army to the north without getting killed in Moat Cailin or raising the alarms all over the north.

But it's not that hard to picture Stannis attacking Winterfell and be on the brink of defeat when Jon and a bunch of wildlings appear to save the day and then they kill Roose and Ramsay. That could actually go down, as for the rest, well, it's utter bullshit since there's no wormhole between the vale and the heart of the north in the books as in the show.

Frankly impossible. It would take Jon over a month after he's resurrected before he can reach Stannis. 

Stannis will either lose or win in that timeframe

[Lord_Ravenstone]

On 6/20/2016 at 2:20 PM, Tagganaro said:

haha yes.  I just want the freaking book to come out.  I feel bad for GRRM that he's sort of lost authority over the telling of his story, but damn I'm also angry and just want him to freaking finish these books.  It's been taking far too long.

And agreed, I really can't tell what is going to happen with the WW/North.  I've always felt as if the saying that a "Stark must always be in Winterfell" will have vital importance when the WW invasion starts...and I've just been waiting for so damn long for Ramsay/the Boltons/the Freys to get their comeuppance.  And it just seems as if Sansa's story is leading her North/towards Jon from my reading (but again could be completely wrong in my part, as it's all speculation).

I was in 100% agreement with most of this pre-Season 5  I was really stunned by what happened with Stannis last year in the show as I was convinced he was winning the Battle of Ice.  The show killing him off so easily has made me revisit my assumption from before that he would win.  D & D have made wholesale major changes to GRRM's books, but I figured they had some kind of outline from him here that they were following.  You could be right.  It's entirely possible D & D made up this "Battle of the Bastards" because they thought it'd be better than Stannis v. Ramsay.  All of this could be a result from their decision last year to ditch Sansa's arc in the Vale and send her to Winterfell (something I honestly sympathized with and understood at first as I don't think Sansa alone in the Vale would have held viewers' interest).  I don't know.

Over time, I have come to appreciate that Ramsay has been built up as such a despicable villain, that I want a Stark to personally take him down for what he's done to Winterfell.  It just feels "wrong" to me that Stannis, an outsider who has nothing to do with Winterfell or the North would take him out with little Stark involvement (outside of Jon's helping hand from afar).  In short, as I said above, I feel as if a Stark needs to be in Winterfell for the WW invasion and I don't like the idea of Stannis running Winterfell.  

I can appreciate your position on the the Knights of the Vale coming North being irrational, as I've discussed, but again, I feel there are textual clues outside of what's been happening on the show to suggest that may happen.  

 

I think Stannis taking Winterfell was supposed to be the culmination of his plot in ADWD. It's supposed to feel a little uncomfortable that this weirwood burning fire king took Winterfell and is now sitting the throne of the winter kings.

Like I think ADWD was supposed to end with:

Tommen, a fake Baratheon, ruling King's Landing

Aegon, a fake Targaryen, ruling Storm's End

Euron, a Greyjoy, ruling Oldtown

Stannis, a Baratheon, ruling Winterfell

[Lord_Ravenstone]

5 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

 

It's tough to understand what exactly Littlefinger's plans are at the moment in the books, but it seems like they would revolve around Harry the Heir leading the Knights of the Vale into war (which I believe LF specifically mentions in AFFC when he tells Sansa about having to win over Harry's heart).  Take into account that the loyalties of the Lords Declarant/Lords of the Vale seem to be heavily Pro-Jon Arryn/Lysa Arryn (which means Stark/Tully as well, like Bronze Yohn who has visited Winterfell several times and agitated to join the War of the 5 Kings on Robb Stark's side), I don't think it would be an issue for the Knights of the Vale to follow Harry the Heir/Sansa Stark into battle to regain Winterfell (politically speaking at least).

I do agree however that logistically/weather-wise it would be difficult/impossible to get the Knights of the Vale to Winterfell, but as you mentioned we ARE in the realms of fantasy lol.  If GRRM wants that to happen he will make it happen.  Maybe Bran helps Sansa out.  I don't even know.  

What I do know is that so far, my reading of Sansa's arc (particularly through the Snow Castle scene and the prophecy of the Ghost of High Heart) has her looking Northwards and not South.  

You know they have ships, right?

[Lord_Ravenstone]

17 hours ago, Yin & Yang said:

I think it would be terrible storytelling from GRRM if, after all this time, and all the agony felt by the Stark children, that Stannis took back Winterfell, rather than them. 

It'd be terribly cliched if GRRM did it this way. Then it becomes a good versus evil battle. It then becomes the main characters doing everything.

I suspect that GRRM is setting up a battle between Stannis, the liberator of the North, and Lf + Sansa with the support of the Knights of the Vale.

That would actually make us feel conflicted on who to support 

[Yin & Yang]

10 hours ago, Stannis is the man....nis said:

On what evidence do you base this? You keep saying this stuff will happen but D&D themselves have said 1) George told them Stannis will burn Shireen which can't happen if he just dies, 2) they have said most of this season is completely made up, and 3) at no point during the build or after the battle did they say "George told us this would happen" even though they did for Hodor and Shireen. Their is no evidence other then your personal opinion this will happen

1. If Stannis wins then why would he burn Shireen?

2. It's been a while since I read ADWD but isn't Shireen at the Wall? If Stannis wins at Winterfell, why would he go back to the Wall? If he does win and brings her back to Winterfell, why would he burn her? What would that achieve?  

I can't see a logical reason for Stannis to burn Shireen unless he's lost at Winterfell. Let's be honest, Stannis won't win the Iron Throne. He's marked for death, most likely in TWOW or early in ADOS (if he isn't already). I can't see him doing much more then the battle of Winterfell. Once Jon is resurrected, and Mel puts two and two together (that he's AA), I can't see her suggesting burning Shireen for Stannis, unless burning Shireen for Stannis inadvertently resurrects Jon (though even in this scenario it would mean Stannis has lost at Winterfell).

 

[Yin & Yang]

2 hours ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

It'd be terribly cliched if GRRM did it this way. Then it becomes a good versus evil battle. It then becomes the main characters doing everything.

I suspect that GRRM is setting up a battle between Stannis, the liberator of the North, and Lf + Sansa with the support of the Knights of the Vale.

That would actually make us feel conflicted on who to support 

People act like GRRM is such a fantasy visionary and that he has changed the face of the genre. They look at how he does the "unexpected" as evidence of this. 

Look, I love GRRM but these views are hugely overstated. If Jon is resurrected and R+L=J is true (let's be honest, they're both basically canon) then how is he a visionary? How is he different?

The resurrected hero trope and the hidden prince trope is basically the most cliche storylines in fantasy.

Taking that into consideration, it's not hard for me to believe that he will have the Starks take back Winterfell.

[Lord_Ravenstone]

3 minutes ago, Yin & Yang said:

People act like GRRM is such a fantasy visionary and that he has changed the face of the genre. They look at how he does the "unexpected" as evidence of this. 

Look, I love GRRM but these views are hugely overstated. If Jon is resurrected and R+L=J is true (let's be honest, they're both basically canon) then how is he a visionary? How is he different?

The resurrected hero trope and the hidden prince trope is basically the most cliche storylines in fantasy.

Taking that into consideration, it's not hard for me to believe that he will have the Starks take back Winterfell.

Because ultimately R + L = J won't have any political importance. It'll be important to Jon's identity and personal issues 

And while they're not doing this in the show, I have full confidence that Jon's going to be a right bastard after being resurrected.

im not saying that the Starks won't take back Winterfell because they will but they won't take it back from the Boltons 

there is set up here for a Starkbowl 

i forsee Jon and Sansa separately trying to take Winterfell back from Stannis, the liberator of the North and Rickon, Ned's trueborn son 

[Lord_Ravenstone]

20 minutes ago, Yin & Yang said:

1. If Stannis wins then why would he burn Shireen?

2. It's been a while since I read ADWD but isn't Shireen at the Wall? If Stannis wins at Winterfell, why would he go back to the Wall? If he does win and brings her back to Winterfell, why would he burn her? What would that achieve?  

I can't see a logical reason for Stannis to burn Shireen unless he's lost at Winterfell. Let's be honest, Stannis won't win the Iron Throne. He's marked for death, most likely in TWOW or early in ADOS (if he isn't already). I can't see him doing much more then the battle of Winterfell. Once Jon is resurrected, and Mel puts two and two together (that he's AA), I can't see her suggesting burning Shireen for Stannis, unless burning Shireen for Stannis inadvertently resurrects Jon (though even in this scenario it would mean Stannis has lost at Winterfell).

 

1. because the Others invade, they besiege Winterfell while he's there and Melisandre convinces him it's the only way to save the world 

2. Shireen is going to come to him with Seylse and Mel after Jon's assassination because they're no longer safe at the Wall

 

[UnViserion]

On 6/20/2016 at 0:17 AM, Stannis is the man....nis said:

This battle resulted in Rickon dead as we all now he is no near the Boltons right now and Davos is on his way to save him. The Umber (notably a man who died at the Red Wedding) were straight up villains. Jon Snow's motivation for this battle was saving Rickon but again like the books he is no where near them. The Vale saved everyone while in the books they are still way too wrapped up in their own politics right now to go North. Finally, Ramsay downfall is based on an event he never did in the books (rape Sansa). So with all this does anyone still think this was some future book event?

No, I don't believe for a second that this was in any way shape or form a future book event.

[Stag_legion]

1 hour ago, Yin & Yang said:

1. If Stannis wins then why would he burn Shireen?

2. It's been a while since I read ADWD but isn't Shireen at the Wall? If Stannis wins at Winterfell, why would he go back to the Wall? If he does win and brings her back to Winterfell, why would he burn her? What would that achieve?  

I can't see a logical reason for Stannis to burn Shireen unless he's lost at Winterfell. Let's be honest, Stannis won't win the Iron Throne. He's marked for death, most likely in TWOW or early in ADOS (if he isn't already). I can't see him doing much more then the battle of Winterfell. Once Jon is resurrected, and Mel puts two and two together (that he's AA), I can't see her suggesting burning Shireen for Stannis, unless burning Shireen for Stannis inadvertently resurrects Jon (though even in this scenario it would mean Stannis has lost at Winterfell).

 

Simple Stannis isn't the one who burns shireen, its melisandre who does it and she does it because she thinks Stannis is dead.

[Yin & Yang]

22 minutes ago, Stag_legion said:

Simple Stannis isn't the one who burns shireen, its melisandre who does it and she does it because she thinks Stannis is dead.

That could be interesting. Imagine if Mel burns Shireen because Stannis is dead (or she thinks he is) as part of a ritual to resurrect him. She asks for Azor Ahai to be brought back and instead Jon is brought back. 

[Stag_legion]

10 minutes ago, Yin & Yang said:

That could be interesting. Imagine if Mel burns Shireen because Stannis is dead (or she thinks he is) as part of a ritual to resurrect him. She asks for Azor Ahai to be brought back and instead Jon is brought back. 

That's actually what I think might very well happen. Although I think GRRM will leave it unclear if its Mel bringing Jon back or some Old god magic/warging.

The show obviously avoided this because its a very uncomfortable situation. Do you cheer for Jon coming back even though it might have been due to the painful death of an innocent girl?

[xjlxking]

GRRM has never been the one to describe a battle in his books. If anything, he will give details on both sides, but like always, give a conclusion; much like the show did with many of the battles (S4, S2, S3..etc). 

Will there be a battle between Jon and Ramsey? Yeah, I do think so, I think it would be a nice set up. These two characters are very similar yet different in important ways. Obviously, the circumstance will be different in the books. 

[Boarsbane]

12 minutes ago, xjlxking said:

GRRM has never been the one to describe a battle in his books. If anything, he will give details on both sides, but like always, give a conclusion; much like the show did with many of the battles (S4, S2, S3..etc). 

Will there be a battle between Jon and Ramsey? Yeah, I do think so, I think it would be a nice set up. These two characters are very similar yet different in important ways. Obviously, the circumstance will be different in the books. 

I can think of a couple just off the top of my head, the scope is limited because it's usually told through 1 or possibly 2 POV's 

[xjlxking]

3 minutes ago, Boarsbane said:

I can think of a couple just off the top of my head, the scope is limited because it's usually told through 1 or possibly 2 POV's 

Would you say that the battle of bastards in this episode was also limited to a certain extend from Jon's eyes? There is also the possibility of Bran witnessing it somehow. There is multiple ways to approach it, but i do think that GRRM knows better than to do it; as good of a writer as he is, it's not easy to put a battle into words. 

[Maia]

9 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I don't think the others are coming through the wall anytime soon in the books 

Of course they are. That was the whole purpose of GRRM quickly curtailing Autumn and plunging Westeros into Winter. The only plot development that demands it is the onslaught of the Others - all the political squabbling and infighting could have happened in Autumn.