Attitude

Will the tombs reveal Jons parentage? [Spoilers]

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The crypts have been a huge Chekhov's Gun for too long. There is something important about them, even beyond Jon's parentage (at least in the books). Are we going to find out this episode? Who knows, but they wouldn't have Jon go down there for no reason.

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Would it be possible that Bran accidentally pulls Jon into his vision? 

Bloodraven sent (albeit in an obtuse manner) visions to Bran so I'm sure he has the power to do similar. 

The way they could do it is that once Bran cops what is happening, he utters Jon's name which ends up tapping him into the vision. 

I just couldn't see Jon conveniently coming across some major reveal hidden in the crypts or Howland Reed turning up to tell him "btw, you're not Ned Stark's bastard but his nephew, g'luck."

The only other scenario I could see is Littlefinger dropping the mic in order to try and discredit Jon's claim to be Lord of Winterfell/KITN.

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I don't think Jon will know of his heritage this season. In the show only Brian will see it and audience will know it's confirmed. As for the whole Westeros it might be very very far, maybe they will never know.

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I think the only two avenues to discover Jons parentage, are Brans visions or Littlefinger revealing a secret he has long knew (as most point out - the look he gave Sansa when she told the story of Raeghar raping Lyanna suggests Sansas version isnt correct). 

If LF wants to marry Sansa, but faces resistance from Jon, he could reveal his secret and forever de-legitimize Jon from attaining the Stark name, thus pulling the rug out from under him. 

I believe Tyrion is actually the mad kings illegitimate son with Joanne Lannister, as well as the R+L=J theory. I think all three of Jon, Tyrion and Dany are Targaryens.

Three dragons - three Targaryens. 

 

Edited by Adam141414

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23 minutes ago, Adam141414 said:

I think the only two avenues to discover Jons parentage, are Brans visions or Littlefinger revealing a secret he has long knew (as most point out - the look he gave Sansa when she told the story of Raeghar raping Lyanna suggests Sansas version isnt correct). 

If LF wants to marry Sansa, but faces resistance from Jon, he could reveal his secret and forever de-legitimize Jon from attaining the Stark name, thus pulling the rug out from under him. 

I believe Tyrion is actually the mad kings illegitimate son with Joanne Lannister, as well as the R+L=J theory. I think all three of Jon, Tyrion and Dany are Targaryens.

Three dragons - three Targaryens. 

 

The show seems to be pushing towards LF being the bearer of the news of RLJ and this would be a fine reason to if he wants Sansa & the North that bad. Hopefully the outting of Jon eventually doesnt work out for LF but how will he prove this big reveal?? A letter from Lyanna/Rhaegar to Benjen that he intercepted has been rumored, is that enough?? What evidence will people acknowledge his true heritage?

I think i Jon or Bran or someone finds out, it will be more of a personal/intimate reflection. To give Jon's story some form of closure because this whole time his character was molded around bastard. Its kind of a heartbreaking story imho, Jon would be going through a shit ton of emotion, I mean Emmy nominating kind of emotion lol

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4 hours ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

I don't think Jon will know of his heritage this season. In the show only Brian will see it and audience will know it's confirmed. As for the whole Westeros it might be very very far, maybe they will never know.

Jon will have to know eventually. Else there is no need of this big secret. Why make his parentage such a big secret if it won't influence anything in the story? It has to mean someting. 

51 minutes ago, tmug said:

The show seems to be pushing towards LF being the bearer of the news of RLJ and this would be a fine reason to if he wants Sansa & the North that bad. Hopefully the outting of Jon eventually doesnt work out for LF but how will he prove this big reveal?? A letter from Lyanna/Rhaegar to Benjen that he intercepted has been rumored, is that enough?? What evidence will people acknowledge his true heritage?

I think i Jon or Bran or someone finds out, it will be more of a personal/intimate reflection. To give Jon's story some form of closure because this whole time his character was molded around bastard. Its kind of a heartbreaking story imho, Jon would be going through a shit ton of emotion, I mean Emmy nominating kind of emotion lol

How would LF know this? 

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Just now, Attitude said:

Jon will have to know eventually. Else there is no need of this big secret. Why make his parentage such a big secret if it won't influence anything in the story? It has to mean someting. 

I think it means to the fight against WW, not to people in Westeros. Who is going to prove that he is actually a dragon when his looks is totally a Stark? Who will believe? I doubt that Dany will believe if she heard of it. I guess that his heritage will be the reason he can fight against WW but Westeros people will always see him as the bastard of Winterfell. And it means to him because he finally knows who is this mother (and father). I doubt that he would be proud of his true father. Lol

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31 minutes ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

I think it means to the fight against WW, not to people in Westeros. Who is going to prove that he is actually a dragon when his looks is totally a Stark? Who will believe? I doubt that Dany will believe if she heard of it. I guess that his heritage will be the reason he can fight against WW but Westeros people will always see him as the bastard of Winterfell. And it means to him because he finally knows who is this mother (and father). I doubt that he would be proud of his true father. Lol

IMO, this won't help the story in any way at all. 

Why make his parentage such a secret and such a big deal. Why not just make Jon freaking awesome and some sort of 'chosen one'? (So without a particular reason)

Because R+L=J means more.... He isn't just the 'bastard of Ned Stack' who happens to be the chosen one to defend westeros against the WW. No, he is that because he is the son of Rhaegar & Lyanna and therefor the Song of Ice and Fire, tPtwP, AAR etc. 

At least, that's how I think things will work out. Making this big secret (and big reveal) but it not influencing anything just doesn't make sense. 

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Bran will be down there. 

He has travelled through a secret passage connecting the wall & the crypts.

 

 

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On 6/20/2016 at 4:47 PM, Attitude said:

So after seeing episode 9, it's very likely Jon will descend into the tombs of winterfell.

I actually remember some people theorizing about the cripts in relation with R+L=J (it was on the book forum and reddit), so I decided to google it. 

What I stubbled on was the following (show) theory (Possible spoilers inside!):
https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/4k261b/spoilers_everything_the_forbidden_tomb_in_the/

For me this sounds like a realistic possibility for Jon to get to know his parentage, but somehow they will have to mix the ToJ scenes in it (we didn't see those scenes in the beginning of the season for nothing). 

So I could see the following happen:
Jon is in the crypts, and he somehow decides to go deeper inside the crypts. Once he sees the rubble he starts digging, end of scene.

ToJ scene with Ned & Lyanna. We learn that the baby isn't Neds son, but Lyanna's. At the point that Lyanna is about to reveal who Jons father is (maybe after she reveals, so the viewers know it before Jon himself), we cut back to Jon in the crypts and he sees the shown gravestone.

End of episode 10. 

What do you think? 

 

I love this, but I'd add that I think it makes much more sense for Ghost to lead Jon to the tomb down in the depths...Perhaps he starts clawing at the collapsed rocks, urging Jon forward and Jon obliges...this could also give the appearance that Bran is perhaps leading Jon to the reveal through Ghost. 

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Jon and Ghost will go out to kill LF. LF will safe his life by telling Jon about RLJ. Remember LF talking to Sansa in the crypts about Lyanna? It's quite likely he knows something.

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5 minutes ago, TheSmallOther said:

Jon and Ghost will go out to kill LF. LF will safe his life by telling Jon about RLJ. Remember LF talking to Sansa in the crypts about Lyanna? It's quite likely he knows something.

I ask the same question to you:
How would LF know this? 
LF knows a lot, but all the things he knows make sense (because he has plotted with those people). LF isn't Varys who knows everything through his little birds, and even Varys doesn't know about things that were never spoken off. 
Things that LF know have to make sense (at least so far), and him knowing about R+L=J won't make sense to me. 

Edited by Attitude
Additional explanation

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The only logical way that the tombs will reveal Jon's parentage is imho in Ned's tomb.

Assuming the tomb of each family member is build while he is still alive, Ned could plant the answer in his own, knowing that his tomb will not be disturbed by anyone until he is dead (literally taking the secret to his grave).

In the books the Silent Sisters entomb his remains, and it is only logical they can't say- if they even care - to say anything.

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3 hours ago, Attitude said:

I ask the same question to you:
How would LF know this? 
LF knows a lot, but all the things he knows make sense (because he has plotted with those people). LF isn't Varys who knows everything through his little birds, and even Varys doesn't know about things that were never spoken off. 
Things that LF know have to make sense (at least so far), and him knowing about R+L=J won't make sense to me. 

How would LF know and better yet, if he did know why hasn't he used that information sooner. He could have destroyed Ned with it a long time ago and with far less effort lol.

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7 minutes ago, IrisBest said:

How would LF know and better yet, if he did know why hasn't he used that information sooner. He could have destroyed Ned with it a long time ago and with far less effort lol.

LF didn't want to destroy Ned per se. He just wanted a Lannister/Stark war and he did what was necesarry to do so. In the way the story went, Ned had to go.. 

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10 hours ago, Adam141414 said:

I think the only two avenues to discover Jons parentage, are Brans visions or Littlefinger revealing a secret he has long knew (as most point out - the look he gave Sansa when she told the story of Raeghar raping Lyanna suggests Sansas version isnt correct). 

If LF wants to marry Sansa, but faces resistance from Jon, he could reveal his secret and forever de-legitimize Jon from attaining the Stark name, thus pulling the rug out from under him. 

I believe Tyrion is actually the mad kings illegitimate son with Joanne Lannister, as well as the R+L=J theory. I think all three of Jon, Tyrion and Dany are Targaryens.

Three dragons - three Targaryens. 

 

There is a third alternative that isn't really discussed, and that is that it's actually Sam who finds out the truth, and Sam who proves it. We do not know a lot about the Maester's order or their secrets. We know that they ARE an order, and we know that they service the realm more so than the individual houses to which they are apparently assigned (someone please help me if that I am mistaken on the assignment part). But we don't know exactly what the order knows, and we don't know exactly what their vows are. For example, maybe there are books and books and books about all the dragons and white walkers and the history of the First Men and all the "mythical" creatures that Old Nan talks about in Old Town but for the sake of protecting the realm, the maesters deliberately dismiss it all as non-sense, and advise nobility that it is non-sense. This would be a reasonable thing to do if the maester's as an order, believed that such knowledge would lead to irrational decisions by powerful houses and risk destruction to the realm. 

My point is this: if it is possible that the maester's know a version of history that is not shared beyond their order, then it is possible that the maester of house Targaryian- possibly even Pycelle, was well aware of Rhaeger and Lyanna's relationship, may never have commented on it to anyone unless asked or he felt it would impact the saftey of the realm, but STILL may have sent ravens back to Old Town to report it as part of daily observations. If so, it may have been recorded at Old Town and dismissed as unimportant because it was a)possibly considered tedium if this type of thing came in from all maesters at all times, and b ) if it was believed that such knowledge would be dangerous -especially after the destruction caused by Robert's Rebellion. But if it IS recorded somewhere at Old Town, then Sam would probably be the one to find it considering he has a talent of finding these kinds of things thought to be obscure by others and hidden in stacks of old books, and he may be the only one with the ability to legitimize the fact in a manner that is accepted throughout Westeros if he is made into a full maester.

Edited by CalvoHobbo
typo

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31 minutes ago, Attitude said:

LF didn't want to destroy Ned per se. He just wanted a Lannister/Stark war and he did what was necesarry to do so. In the way the story went, Ned had to go.. 

Well didn't he mostly want Ned out of the way so he could have Catelyn? And overall I think he could have still sparked a war if he'd waited a couple years and then sprang the truth about Jon on King Robert which would have put Houses Baratheon/Lannister at odds with the Starks (Robert would have demanded young Jon's head and Ned would have refused - that'd be something LF could use easily to get the war he wanted, one would think)

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So what about Benjen?  Does he not know the truth about Jon?  He certainly alludes to it ("If you only knew what it meant.").   Perhaps he has a reason for being in the Night's Watch, and we know he is headed south to the Wall with Bran - and probably not to camp at Castle Black.  Benjen is (un)dead, and not necessarily bound to his vows to the NW.  Would he not be Lord of Winterfell, or is he trying to get Bran past the Wall for sinister reasons (to break the spell and allow the Army of the Dead through)?

Perhaps he gets Bran and Meera through to Winterfell, tells Jon of his lineage, and becomes Lord of Winterfell?  Is any of this possible?

Edited by Old Blue Eyes

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1 hour ago, IrisBest said:

Well didn't he mostly want Ned out of the way so he could have Catelyn? And overall I think he could have still sparked a war if he'd waited a couple years and then sprang the truth about Jon on King Robert which would have put Houses Baratheon/Lannister at odds with the Starks (Robert would have demanded young Jon's head and Ned would have refused - that'd be something LF could use easily to get the war he wanted, one would think)

No, it is very, very bad for the Starks as a whole if Jon is outed as a Targaryen.  Concealing that Jon is a Targaryen is high treason.  (Some secrets are too dangerous to reveal, even to those you most love.)  It will likely result in the entire family becoming light headed, so to speak.

14 minutes ago, Old Blue Eyes said:

Would he not be Lord of Winterfell

By all of the laws of Westeros, an uncle never comes before his nephew (and when females can hold the position, niece). 

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My thought is that Jon will find a silver harp that is named in Lyanna's tomb.  It could be a dragon egg, a sigil ring, a marriage cloak, any number of things, but I really like the harp. 

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