Attitude

Will the tombs reveal Jons parentage? [Spoilers]

218 posts in this topic

14 hours ago, IrisBest said:

Well didn't he mostly want Ned out of the way so he could have Catelyn? And overall I think he could have still sparked a war if he'd waited a couple years and then sprang the truth about Jon on King Robert which would have put Houses Baratheon/Lannister at odds with the Starks (Robert would have demanded young Jon's head and Ned would have refused - that'd be something LF could use easily to get the war he wanted, one would think)

Betraying Ned & letting him get killed by the hands of the Lannisters? Yeah that would help him winning Cat over for sure. 

I don't know if Robert would've demanded young Jon's head. Maybe in a first reaction, but for real? I think not.. 

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The tombstone theory makes no sense because Ned wouldn't just need to protect Jon until his (Jon's) death. Ned would have to assume, prior to Jon taking the black, that it would at least be possible for him to have children of his own one day, and those children would also be secret Targs. Which means they (and all their descendants) would also be a threat to a Baratheon king and in danger if it became common knowledge.

 

Beyond that, he may have left a clue, (I personally don't think so) but he would be an idiot to leave one quite so blatant and dangerous. He saw what happened the Elia and her kids, and it made him sick enough to cause a rift with Robert. I don't think he would have inscribed Jon's death sentence on a stone and left it lying around for anyone to find. 

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On 20/06/2016 at 6:23 PM, Attitude said:

I never said this was the way Ned was meant to do it. However, it is a convenient way. 

It would be convenient, but it would also be very disappointing. Then again, this mystery has been so long in the making that I feel, no matter how they reveal it, it will be disappointing.

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3 hours ago, farm_ecology said:

How in the is that vague?

 

Also, why would there be a plaque saying this, and has nobody noticed before?


Vague in the sense that there doesn't need to be step by step instructions in ned's grave to Jon's lineage...it doesn't like need to be a bread crumb trail. It can occur more naturally, Jon just chasing ghost who dashes down into the crypts further being inspired by the old gods or an as an agent of bran or or just happenstance. That's the vague part.

As for the second part, check out my previous post. We know that there is a collaspsed part of the crypts deep down. We know Ned has included his whole family in the crypts, with their tombs and headstones already made from the books. Typically, people nonstarks are not allowed in the crypts beyond close close friends/allies. If Jon's place was beyond the collapsed portion, it's not unrealistic someone wouldn't come across it.

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7 hours ago, tugela said:

She would be trueborn, and he would be a bastard. So the order of inheritance would be pretty clear unless she was also Rhaegar's bastard.

Unless Rhaegar & Lyanna were wed, then Jon's not a bastard and since Rhaegar was Aerys' heir, Jon becomes Rhaegar's heir.. or something like that..

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1 hour ago, drayrock said:



As for the second part, check out my previous post. We know that there is a collaspsed part of the crypts deep down. We know Ned has included his whole family in the crypts, with their tombs and headstones already made from the books. Typically, people nonstarks are not allowed in the crypts beyond close close friends/allies. If Jon's place was beyond the collapsed portion, it's not unrealistic someone wouldn't come across it.

Considering how secretive Ned was about Jon's heritage, it seems a bit strange that he would have entrusted this to a Mason and just casually left this secret in the Winterfell crypts. 

Also, I was under the impression that the family Ned had tombs made for were his father/mother/siblings, not his wife or children. I could be wrong though.

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39 minutes ago, farm_ecology said:

Also, I was under the impression that the family Ned had tombs made for were his father/mother/siblings, not his wife or children. I could be wrong though.

The odd thing Ned did was create a statue for Lyanna as statues were only for the Lords and Kings and Brandon was Lord for however long it took him to strangle himself when Rickard died. All of the Starks (at least from the main line) were buried in the crypts.

Edited by The Ice Wolf of Loki

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1 hour ago, farm_ecology said:

Considering how secretive Ned was about Jon's heritage, it seems a bit strange that he would have entrusted this to a Mason and just casually left this secret in the Winterfell crypts. 

Also, I was under the impression that the family Ned had tombs made for were his father/mother/siblings, not his wife or children. I could be wrong though.

 

There's a line where he thinks about his children and the tombs he had made for them in the crypts in book 1. While I don't think Ned would go Mhaegar the cruel and kill the stone mason, there are ways around that loose end. You could get an illiterate mason, someone he really trusted, etc. I guess I disagree with how casual you are making it sound. Crypts are thousands of years old and huge. Literally no one goes down there other than Starks and this would be in the deepest part of the crypt, which he blocked off. But I see your point, book Ned probably wouldn't do this....but we're talking about the show here. In the show, he indicated teh next time they spoke; they'd discuss his mother. 

The crypt has something to do with Jon, we know that. There's not much else that it could lead to other than his heritage, it's one of the few mysteries left in the series. It's almost symbolic...the secret would never be safe while he was living, so in death the world and the heir of winterfell could know. 

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I believe that Ned really made a tomb inscribed with Jon's true parentage as well as his true name in WInterfell's crypt. The illiterate stonemason won't understand what he was inscribing and thus the secret is kept. There's a chance someone will come down and discover the secret, but I think Jon's tomb is in the collapsed level that makes it hard to get through.

I'm quite surprised everyone here thinks that only Ned and Holand know Jon's true parentage when the Daynes might also know. Ned is very secretive about it but he's gotta tell Jon about his mother somehow. Ned promised to tell Jon about his mother when he came back after Jon decided to join the Night's Watch.

I think Ghost will lead Jon to his own tomb in the collapsed level when they were burying Rickon. Then Jon'll discover his secret as well as Darksister and Torrhen's ancient crown in his tomb.

Also, Ned is an idiot. Why do you think he'd be considerate enough to think ahead of the consequence for placing the tomb for Jon along with his secret there?

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12 hours ago, tugela said:

Lady Dustin rerouted them to be food for her dogs.

No. In the books she says that she is looking for the bones. Quoting the books:

"Catelyn Tully dispatched Lord Eddard’s bones north before the Red Wedding, but your iron uncle seized Moat Cailin and closed the way. I have been watching ever since. Should those bones ever emerge from the swamps, they will get no farther than Barrowton.”

The bones are yet to be found. My guess is that Howland Reed has them.

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Jon won't know his heritage at this point. I think it is too soon. Maybe next season

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12 hours ago, tugela said:

Which would prove nothing. Likewise with the harp theory.

You are severely overstating your case. The presence of a Targaryen wedding cloak would indicate that Lyanna and Rhaegar were married. The term 'proof' is inappropriate here. What we are after with regard to Jon's parentage is evidence and indicators. A wedding cloak by its own may not be very good evidence, but in conjunction with some other piece of information, it may be enough in terms of story and characterization.

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3 hours ago, drayrock said:

 

There's a line where he thinks about his children and the tombs he had made for them in the crypts in book 1. While I don't think Ned would go Mhaegar the cruel and kill the stone mason, there are ways around that loose end. You could get an illiterate mason, someone he really trusted, etc. I guess I disagree with how casual you are making it sound. Crypts are thousands of years old and huge. Literally no one goes down there other than Starks and this would be in the deepest part of the crypt, which he blocked off. But I see your point, book Ned probably wouldn't do this....but we're talking about the show here. In the show, he indicated teh next time they spoke; they'd discuss his mother. 

The crypt has something to do with Jon, we know that. There's not much else that it could lead to other than his heritage, it's one of the few mysteries left in the series. It's almost symbolic...the secret would never be safe while he was living, so in death the world and the heir of winterfell could know. 

I disagree that it must have something to do with Jon, there are plenty of other possibilities. 

Though something I only just considered: The rumour that a dragon lives Winterfell - I wonder is a reference to this in some way? Even so far as Rheagar himself being buried alongside Lyanna below the crypts? I agree that there are ways Ned probably could have done it, I just think having a very simple "son of x and y" would be very unsatisfying.

Although it did lead me to an amusing exchange:

Jon: "I.....I'm the son of Lynanna and Rhaegar?"

Sansa: "W-wait? You didn't know? Come on Jon, I thought everyone knew!"

Davos: "Yeah Snow, everyone figured it out. It's the worst kept secret in Westeros."

Tormund: "Even I knew, and I have no idea who Liona and Rhigar are!"

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What if the tombs reveal someone else's parentage? Like, I don't know, the Night King. 

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8 hours ago, Attitude said:

Betraying Ned & letting him get killed by the hands of the Lannisters? Yeah that would help him winning Cat over for sure. 

I don't know if Robert would've demanded young Jon's head. Maybe in a first reaction, but for real? I think not.. 

I don't mean that LF would have gotten Ned killed because that wasn't his intention in the series with the plan he actually carried out. When I say destroy I mean the same thing LF intended in the series which was Ned losing everything, being sent to the Wall, etc. If he'd known the truth about Jon I think for sure that would've factored into the plot he carried out against Ned. And yeah I do think Robert would've wanted Jon dead because that was the whole point of keeping Jon's identity a secret - Ned knew exactly what Robert would do and that's why he was so dead set on not telling anyone not even people he trusted, who Jon really was. Robert would not have reacted well to finding out Rhaegar had sired a child with Lyanna, that this was a Targaryen and potential threat to his rule, and whats more Ned had lied to him about it and harbored this kid. If we're going to believe that LF somehow knew about this, and had proof, I think for sure he would've used it already and it might've made his plans for Ned a lot easier. 

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21 hours ago, MtnLion said:

My thought is that Jon will find a silver harp that is named in Lyanna's tomb.  It could be a dragon egg, a sigil ring, a marriage cloak, any number of things, but I really like the harp. 

I would like this to happen. It would be a fitting way to discover the truth. After all who would really look in the crypt other than Starks and they wouldn't tell the world. 

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22 hours ago, MtnLion said:

My thought is that Jon will find a silver harp that is named in Lyanna's tomb.  It could be a dragon egg, a sigil ring, a marriage cloak, any number of things, but I really like the harp. 

It could be the crown of Aegon the Conqueror being Valyrian Steel it couldn't be mistaken for anything other than the real thing. A letter written by Lyanna and bearing the seals of Houses Stark, Hightower, Dayne and Whent wouldn't go astray either.

Edited by The Ice Wolf of Loki

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7 hours ago, Rory Snow said:

Unless Rhaegar & Lyanna were wed, then Jon's not a bastard and since Rhaegar was Aerys' heir, Jon becomes Rhaegar's heir.. or something like that..

 Rhaegar was already married and I see no reason why the people of Westeros will suddenly embrace polygamy, a practice that was stopped over what, 150 years ago,

 

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7 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

 Rhaegar was already married and I see no reason why the people of Westeros will suddenly embrace polygamy, a practice that was stopped over what, 150 years ago,

 

the Iron Islands does it still.  Children of salt wives carry the full name and can inherit from their father.  And the Targaryen's have dragons again, for at least this moment, so the might makes right rules they previously used to justify it once again exist.  In theory, anyway.

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Hello everybody, I´m new here :D

Here my thoughts:

I think Dany will find out about Jon´s parentage on her own. Perhaps through a Vision or through one of her Dragons (One might be really attached to Jon so he doesn´t have really to prove he is a Tagaryan) As far as I remember she only has flown on Drogon so what about the other dragons? 3 dragons 3 riders, remember? And Mel she has a role here I believe. Sorry for my English :rolleyes:

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