Jon Cannot Be Angry With Sansa

[LordPathera]

4 minutes ago, Ice Spider said:

LMAO at all the Sansa hate. While I have never been a bi fan of hers, what she did was brilliant. Anyone that says otherwise doesn't have a clue.

Jon paid no attention nor heeding any of Sansa's warnings. Sansa was right, and Jon, like an incompetent fool, fell right into Ramsay's trap. Luckily for Sansa, she foreseen this and had a little trap of her own, and guess what? It worked.

All the foreshadowing of the previous episode is completely lost on everyone here that's wants to criticize why she did what she did, All one needs to do is go back to riverun, and remember the talks of a siege. Had Ramsay not been overconfident and had known the Vales army had joined ranks with John, a siege is exactly what would have happened, and it still would have been a blood bath. Not to mention that the Siege forces would have eventually become wight bait.

Wun Wun would have been cut to pieces trying a stunt like he did against a fully staffed WF. There would have been hundreds of arrows in his eye, not merely one.

That's not even to mention Jon's poorly provisioned and  loosely held together  coalition of forces would have started killing each other, not to mention starve, if forced wage a siege war with winter coming.

This is mid evil times, and the ends justify  the means. In all likely hood, the way the battle unfolded, Sansa could have arguably saved lives, but no one wants to realize that.

get over it already.

How exactly does your high horse rant justify Sansa's withholding of vital need-to-know information?

Or the bad writing of the whole situation in general?

So no. We won't get over it because we don't want bad writing and bad character development to become more pervasive in the near-future. And that's done by "hating" on contrived set-ups, bad storytelling and plot development and character development and actions that make you dislike a character while the story acts like you're supposed to like them.

Granted, this isn't as bad as Jamie raping Cersei; but bad is still bad and should be discouraged.

[Ice Spider]

3 minutes ago, LordPathera said:

How exactly does your high horse rant justify Sansa's withholding of vital need-to-know information?

Or the bad writing of the whole situation in general?

So no. We won't get over it because we don't want bad writing and bad character development to become more pervasive in the near-future. And that's done by "hating" on contrived set-ups, bad storytelling and plot development and character development and actions that make you dislike a character while the story acts like you're supposed to like them.

Granted, this isn't as bad as Jamie raping Cersei; but bad is still bad and should be discouraged.

Obviously the whole point of my post went over your head. Had Jon known, the battle would not have unfolded the way it did. It was brilliant. Cold hearted, yes, but brilliant none-the-less. As for the bad writing, hey, why not just wait another 10-15 years for Grmm to write the next book? At least D&D ARE writing.

[House Mosse]

To be fair, Sansa also has a pretty good claim to being angry with Jon. She specifically said to him:

"Rickon is fucked. I KNOW RAMSAY. He plays games. He will fuck with your head. Whatever you do, don't do what he wants you to do."

And Jon was all "yeah yeah, what kind of idiot do you think I am, I've fought battles, da da da." Then, low and behold, Ramsay uses Rickon to fuck with Jon's head, Jon falls for it completely and does exactly what Ramsay wants and leads everyone into a trap that got three quarters of them killed and would have got every one of them killed if the Knights of the Vale had not turned up. Jon ballsed up spectacularly in EXACTLY the way she warned him about.

[Ice Spider]

In all seriousness though, D&D/HBO should have waited for Grmm to finish the next book. Then we could have had Jon and Ramsay in wheelchairs, a grey haired Sansa, and a 48 year old Rickon running across the field.

[youshallnotpass]

Jon will not be angry with Sansa but will say dont trust little finger. 

Do you think Jon knows little finger betrayed Ned? 

[Karmarni]

27 minutes ago, LordPathera said:

How exactly does your high horse rant justify Sansa's withholding of vital need-to-know information?

Or the bad writing of the whole situation in general?

So no. We won't get over it because we don't want bad writing and bad character development to become more pervasive in the near-future. And that's done by "hating" on contrived set-ups, bad storytelling and plot development and character development and actions that make you dislike a character while the story acts like you're supposed to like them.

Granted, this isn't as bad as Jamie raping Cersei; but bad is still bad and should be discouraged.

Sansa withheld information. She knew about the Vale army, Jon gave her the chance to tell him and she did not. Her little smirk when the Vale came riding in to save the day, that was not a positive sign for this character. 

22 minutes ago, Ice Spider said:

Obviously the whole point of my post went over your head. Had Jon known, the battle would not have unfolded the way it did. It was brilliant. Cold hearted, yes, but brilliant none-the-less. As for the bad writing, hey, why not just wait another 10-15 years for Grmm to write the next book? At least D&D ARE writing.

Had Jon known . . . is only conjecture. What happened is that Sansa was devious and conniving. Perhaps the writing was so bad they didn't realize they made her look this way, but that is how it looked to me.

12 minutes ago, House Mosse said:

To be fair, Sansa also has a pretty good claim to being angry with Jon. She specifically said to him:

"Rickon is fucked. I KNOW RAMSAY. He plays games. He will fuck with your head. Whatever you do, don't do what he wants you to do."

And Jon was all "yeah yeah, what kind of idiot do you think I am, I've fought battles, da da da." Then, low and behold, Ramsay uses Rickon to fuck with Jon's head, Jon falls for it completely and does exactly what Ramsay wants and leads everyone into a trap that got three quarters of them killed and would have got every one of them killed if the Knights of the Vale had not turned up. Jon ballsed up spectacularly in EXACTLY the way she warned him about.

Sure, because the show continuously has made Jon look like a doofus. All the women this season are making all the men look like stupid. It's the plan, it seems. I do not find it empowering for the women though. 

"Jon ballsed up spectacularly in EXACTLY the way she warned him about." --- That's TV for you, pretty darn simplistic.

[LordPathera]

27 minutes ago, Ice Spider said:

Obviously the whole point of my post went over your head. Had Jon known, the battle would not have unfolded the way it did. It was brilliant. Cold hearted, yes, but brilliant none-the-less. As for the bad writing, hey, why not just wait another 10-15 years for Grmm to write the next book? At least D&D ARE writing.

I got your point, that doesn't make you right or give you the right to brow-beat people who call out this nonsense for what it is. Nonsense.

[Karmarni]

1 minute ago, youshallnotpass said:

Jon will not be angry with Sansa but will say dont trust little finger. 

Do you think Jon knows little finger betrayed Ned? 

No. How would he know? And if they wanted us to have him know, the show would tell us. They think the viewers are that dumb.

[tallTale]

Did they ever say how many vale knights came to help? I ask because if they had more than Ramsay, there is a chance they could have scared him into making an exchange of rickon for his life.

[Stonelands]

15 hours ago, dbunting said:

Saying Jon has no reason to be angry is wrong. If she had told him there was a chance that the Vale army will show up he may have waited a little longer. And despite what someone said earlier, that Ramsey would just hole up in Winterfell, well that's what he did in the end and WunWun got them inside in less than a minute. Ramsey didn't have any defenses against a giant.

I just take this as the show wanting some tension and this is how they are doing it. The preview shows Jon saying that they have to trust each other and kissing her forehead like a father would. This would lead you to believe he accepts whatever reasoning she gives him next week.  

If Ramsay had seen the Vale army to begin with and holed up as a result then he would have had all his archers and crossbowman available to him on the wall. It's unlikely that Wun-Wun would have lived long enough to get the door down in that scenario.

[nymeria_2321]

2 minutes ago, Stonelands said:

If Ramsay had seen the Vale army to begin with and holed up as a result then he would have had all his archers and crossbowman available to him on the wall. It's unlikely that Wun-Wun would have lived long enough to get the door down in that scenario.

If Jon knew about the vale army, I.e. If Sansa had actually told him, doesn't necessarily mean he would have just added them to the bunch to ride straight up to Ramsay at the beginning. Ramsay still wouldn't have known so they could have kept the vale fighters hidden, to ride in at the right moment, kind of like they did but if Jon and co had known they may have played things out a bit better and had less death on their side. 

[House Mosse]

3 minutes ago, Karmarni said:

Sure, because the show continuously has made Jon look like a doofus. All the women this season are making all the men look like stupid. It's the plan, it seems. I do not find it empowering for the women though. 

"Jon ballsed up spectacularly in EXACTLY the way she warned him about." --- That's TV for you, pretty darn simplistic.

Hmmm, I dunno about that. It looks like you might be bringing a little pro-Jon anti-Sansa bias in here. Jon's actions seemed pretty much in keeping with his 'honourable' character. Doing what is 'right' - rushing in and trying to save his brother, rather than thinking and being ruthless and cunning as necessary. The Stark way. Pretty much like Eddard doing the 'right' or 'honourable' thing and warning Cersie about what he was going to tell Robert to save her children, causing him to get his head chopped off. Or Robb doing the honourable thing and executing Rickard Karstark because he killed two Lannister prisoners (and in the books betraying his marriage vows and marrying someone else because he had impregnated her), causing the Northern army to fracture and the Freys to betray and murder him. So Jon's actions pretty much entirely follow the family pattern. Only Sansa was trying to play the game in a more cunning way in the hope of not being butchered. That may be a reason to dislike her rather than like her, but it's what you have to do to survive the game of thrones.

I also think that the women taking power was always going to happen and will happen in the books. The whole way through Martin has portrayed a world in which women are totally degraded and devalued, but in which some women show incredible fortitude and do a lot better than their supposedly superior male counterparts. This theme of women becoming ruling Queens - on the Iron Throne, of the Iron Islands, and potentially the Queen in the North, makes perfect sense from a narrative and conceptual perspective.

[Stonelands]

6 minutes ago, nymeria_2321 said:

If Jon knew about the vale army, I.e. If Sansa had actually told him, doesn't necessarily mean he would have just added them to the bunch to ride straight up to Ramsay at the beginning. Ramsay still wouldn't have known so they could have kept the vale fighters hidden, to ride in at the right moment, kind of like they did but if Jon and co had known they may have played things out a bit better and had less death on their side. 

This argument operates under the notion that there were no spies in Jon's army or that Ramsay had none keeping surveillance. That seems like a tenuous assumption at best and Jon being aware and waiting whilst trying to coordinate with the Vale soldiers would increase Ramsay's chances of finding out. Based on some of Jon's other decisions in that battle I actually kind of don't blame Sansa for not wanting to risk that, especially when you consider the fact that the more people that know, the more chance of the wrong person finding out.

[HellasLEAF]

Gonna have to agree with Karmani, I didn't like the smirk either.  If that was one, or more a smirk of fuck you Ramsey.

Timing of the Vale coming in also.  But then, what if Jon doesn't rush in as was told repeatedly??  What if the Vale army was on it's way.  Surely they would have been used in some way when they had arrived.  

I'm also hoping it's just bad writing because Jon and Sansa should be a team and not doing things like this.  

[Great Winter Knight]

2 minutes ago, House Mosse said:

Hmmm, I dunno about that. It looks like you might be bringing a little pro-Jon anti-Sansa bias in here. Jon's actions seemed pretty much in keeping with his 'honourable' character. Doing what is 'right' - rushing in and trying to save his brother, rather than thinking and being ruthless and cunning as necessary. The Stark way. Pretty much like Eddard doing the 'right' or 'honourable' thing and warning Cersie about what he was going to tell Robert to save her children, causing him to get his head chopped off. Or Robb doing the honourable thing and executing Rickard Karstark because he killed two Lannister prisoners (and in the books betraying his marriage vows and marrying someone else because he had impregnated her), causing the Northern army to fracture and the Freys to betray and murder him. So Jon's actions pretty much entirely follow the family pattern. Only Sansa was trying to play the game in a more cunning way in the hope of not being butchered. That may be a reason to dislike her rather than like her, but it's what you have to do to survive the game of thrones.

I also think that the women taking power was always going to happen and will happen in the books. The whole way through Martin has portrayed a world in which women are totally degraded and devalued, but in which some women show incredible fortitude and do a lot better than their supposedly superior male counterparts. This theme of women becoming ruling Queens - on the Iron Throne, of the Iron Islands, and potentially the Queen in the North, makes perfect sense from a narrative and conceptual perspective.

I think at least for me it's not so much pro this person or anti this person. Sansa had information that would directly pertain to the battle and she knew about it long before they where at winter fell. It would give more weight to Sansa if she gave the info and Jon blew it. I love that woman are getting a chance to be the big badasses, but just like the guys I want them to not be conniving, and manipulative. I know it's a fairy tale but the ass hats in the real word always get their day. In fantasy I would like the good guys/woman end on top. 

[House Mosse]

2 minutes ago, Great Winter Knight said:

I think at least for me it's not so much pro this person or anti this person. Sansa had information that would directly pertain to the battle and she knew about it long before they where at winter fell. It would give more weight to Sansa if she gave the info and Jon blew it. I love that woman are getting a chance to be the big badasses, but just like the guys I want them to not be conniving, and manipulative. I know it's a fairy tale but the ass hats in the real word always get their day. In fantasy I would like the good guys/woman end on top. 

I agree that Sansa has questions to answer about not telling Jon about the Knights of the Vale. I just think that Sansa also has reasons to be pissed at Jon, for doing EXACTLY what she warned him not to do and leading them all into a death trap. Jon was lining up for a proper battle, fair and square. That is all very honourable and something we all support in theory, but she was telling him that this is not how the game is played in the Seven Kingdoms. She knows Ramsay (as well as the Lannisters, Tyrells etc.) and she knows that he will not play fair and square, that he will pull some devious mind game shit, and she is right. It might work fighting salt of the earth wildlings, but if you fight the honourable Ned Stark way in this world you wind up with your head rolling down the steps of Bealor's Sept.

[wolverine]

15 hours ago, caravaggio said:

I think if Sansa had told Jon he might not have made that charge. He felt he was in a no win situation without hope, so when he sees Rickon killed why not run intonthe enemy? Where if he had known there was a chance the Vale would show up he would have had some hope.

 

Maybe it was just bad show writing,

"Why not run into the enemy?"

Because you're the commander of the fucking army and they need you?  Because you can't best 6000 men by yourself?  If there was no hope, then there was not hope before they killed one little boy either.  It was really really stupid and exactly what his sister warned him about.

 

Of course it is shitty writing.  Kind of a theme with the show.

[Stannistician]

24 minutes ago, Stonelands said:

This argument operates under the notion that there were no spies in Jon's army or that Ramsay had none keeping surveillance. That seems like a tenuous assumption at best and Jon being aware and waiting whilst trying to coordinate with the Vale soldiers would increase Ramsay's chances of finding out. Based on some of Jon's other decisions in that battle I actually kind of don't blame Sansa for not wanting to risk that, especially when you consider the fact that the more people that know, the more chance of the wrong person finding out.

Really?  Ramsay had spies and was keeping surveillance?  Besides the obvious point that this is fan made conjecture, not based on anything presented in the show, made up to justify the plot, this also falls flat when you realize that a very large southron army marched right up to WF (past Moat Cailin) without Ramsay having the slightest clue.  Not one Bolton scout informed him of this?  Really?  No way there were Bolton spies in Jon's camp.

This whole notion that Sansa was right to keep it secret because otherwise Ramsay would have hidden inside the walls of WF falls flat as well.  It assumes Jon would have tipped his hand that the Vale forces were there.  And more importantly, it points out the stupidity of Ramsay not knowing the Vale army was there even without Jon tipping his hand. 

[wolverine]

3 minutes ago, House Mosse said:

I agree that Sansa has questions to answer about not telling Jon about the Knights of the Vale. I just think that Sansa also has reasons to be pissed at Jon, for doing EXACTLY what she warned him not to do and leading them all into a death trap. Jon was lining up for a proper battle, fair and square. That is all very honourable and something we all support in theory, but she was telling him that this is not how the game is played in the Seven Kingdoms. She knows Ramsay (as well as the Lannisters, Tyrells etc.) and she knows that he will not play fair and square, that he will pull some devious mind game shit, and she is right. It might work fighting salt of the earth wildlings, but if you fight the honourable Ned Stark way in this world you wind up with your head rolling down the steps of Bealor's Sept.

 

That was really really stupid.  It seems the show wants to make Jon as dumb as possible.  But, maybe he wouldn't have done that if he knew THERE WAS AN ANOTHER ENTIRE ARMY COMING TO SUPPORT THEM!

[House Mosse]

17 minutes ago, Great Winter Knight said:

I think at least for me it's not so much pro this person or anti this person. Sansa had information that would directly pertain to the battle and she knew about it long before they where at winter fell. It would give more weight to Sansa if she gave the info and Jon blew it. I love that woman are getting a chance to be the big badasses, but just like the guys I want them to not be conniving, and manipulative. I know it's a fairy tale but the ass hats in the real word always get their day. In fantasy I would like the good guys/woman end on top. 

 

8 minutes ago, House Mosse said:

I agree that Sansa has questions to answer about not telling Jon about the Knights of the Vale. I just think that Sansa also has reasons to be pissed at Jon, for doing EXACTLY what she warned him not to do and leading them all into a death trap. Jon was lining up for a proper battle, fair and square. That is all very honourable and something we all support in theory, but she was telling him that this is not how the game is played in the Seven Kingdoms. She knows Ramsay (as well as the Lannisters, Tyrells etc.) and she knows that he will not play fair and square, that he will pull some devious mind game shit, and she is right. It might work fighting salt of the earth wildlings, but if you fight the honourable Ned Stark way in this world you wind up with your head rolling down the steps of Bealor's Sept.

Oh, and a follow up point Great Winter Night. Re your point "In fantasy I would like the good guys/woman end on top." I think we will see that, at least to some extent, and it looks like will be from the women. That was what Dany's speech about leaving the world a better place, as opposed to their fathers who left it a worse place, was about. But this is the World of Ice and Fire here. It's not going to be too perfect. These women cannot be naive. They still have to play the game effectively, whilst being as honourable and compassionate as it is possible to be in this world, which unfortunately is some way from perfection.