House Mosse Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 3 minutes ago, wolverine said: That was really really stupid. It seems the show wants to make Jon as dumb as possible. But, maybe he wouldn't have done that if he knew THERE WAS AN ANOTHER ENTIRE ARMY COMING TO SUPPORT THEM! Maybe. I am not saying that he doesn't have reason to be angry with her. I am just saying that she also has reason to be angry with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonelands Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 2 minutes ago, Stannistician said: Really? Ramsay had spies and was keeping surveillance? Besides the obvious point that this is fan made conjecture, not based on anything presented in the show, made up to justify the plot, this also falls flat when you realize that a very large southron army marched right up to WF (past Moat Cailin) without Ramsay having the slightest clue. Not one Bolton scout informed him of this? Really? But he had spies in Jon's camp. Please. This whole notion that Sansa was right to keep it secret because otherwise Ramsay would have hidden inside the walls of WF falls flat as well. It assumes Jon would have tipped his hand that the Vale forces were there. And more importantly, it points out the stupidity of Ramsay not knowing the Vale army was there even without Jon tipping his hand. That still doesn't preclude the idea of Ramsay having scouts in the immediate spies in the area. And it doesn't assume that Jon would have 'tipped the hand' per se but that even in the process of trying to coordinate the arrival of the Vale knights to prevent maximum loss of life, the risks of discovery would be raised significantly whether through Jon's fault or not. And Jon's behavior on the battlefield doesn't exactly inspire confidence that he would have co-ordinated that very effectively. I stand by my argument Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolverine Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Her telling him may have saved thousands of lives. Him not reacting like an emotional spaz may have saved thousands of lives... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Spider Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 15 minutes ago, Stannistician said: Really? Ramsay had spies and was keeping surveillance? Besides the obvious point that this is fan made conjecture, not based on anything presented in the show, made up to justify the plot, this also falls flat when you realize that a very large southron army marched right up to WF (past Moat Cailin) without Ramsay having the slightest clue. Not one Bolton scout informed him of this? Really? No way there were Bolton spies in Jon's camp. This whole notion that Sansa was right to keep it secret because otherwise Ramsay would have hidden inside the walls of WF falls flat as well. It assumes Jon would have tipped his hand that the Vale forces were there. And more importantly, it points out the stupidity of Ramsay not knowing the Vale army was there even without Jon tipping his hand. Your wrong on several facets. Ramseys scouts would have focused their attention on Jon's forces. They had no reason to believe that the Vale would join the Starks for several reasons. And even if he had forward scouts, behind jon's main force, they still had the issue of getting word back to Ramsey, which would have entailed going through Jon's men to get to WF. Ramsay's idiocracy was well documented, it was after all, Ramsay that killed as many, if not more, than Jon did of his own dam forces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Mosse Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 9 minutes ago, wolverine said: Her telling him may have saved thousands of lives. Him not reacting like an emotional spaz may have saved thousands of lives... Exactly. Re his behaviour (as this it is this point I was trying to contribute) this is particularly the case as she had explicitly warned him that Ramsay was going to do something to try and provoke him into acting like an emotional spaz. So yeah, dickish moves from both. Still a great episode though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Spider Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 1 hour ago, LordPathera said: I got your point, that doesn't make you right or give you the right to brow-beat people who call out this nonsense for what it is. Nonsense. I have just as much right to call your assumptions nonsense as you do mine. your overall analysis is incredibly short sighted and idealistic. Yes, it was wrong to drop the nuclear bomb on yagisaki and Hiroshima, but in the long run, it most likely saved lives to do so. You and others don't seem to grasp the bigger picture here, and it's not just about the BOB, but rather the fight that is yet to come. In order to accomplish ALL the objectives, Ramsay had to be drawn outside of WF, end of story. A siege would have left winterfell battered, burned, and broken, Casualties would have been every bit as high, if not higher, and WF would have been useless in the battle against the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolverine Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 4 minutes ago, House Mosse said: Exactly. Re his behaviour (as this it is this point I was trying to contribute) this is particularly the case as she had explicitly warned him that Ramsay was going to do something to try and provoke him into acting like an emotional spaz. So yeah, dickish moves from both. Still a great episode though. It may be interesting to find out what exactly Sansa knew about the Vale army. A lot of speculation about this and we don't know the extent of her communication with LF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannistician Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 7 minutes ago, Ice Spider said: Your wrong on several facets. Ramseys scouts would have focused their attention on Jon's forces. They had no reason to believe that the Vale would join the Starks for several reasons. And even if he had forward scouts, behind jon's main force, they still had the issue of getting word back to Ramsey, which would have entailed going through Jon's men to get to WF. Ramsay's idiocracy was well documented, it was after all, Ramsay that killed as many, if not more, than Jon did of his own dam forces. I agree with you regarding Ramsay's idiocy, but Ramsay had every reason to have scouts focused south. Roose warned him earlier this season that the Lannisters/ Crown may head north to take them out because of the Boltons breaking their alliance with the crown with the Ramsay-Sansa marriage. In addition, Ramsay killed Walda and her son, so there is no alliance with the Freys anymore. Just more enemies to come at them from the south. So at the very least, you would think that Ramsay would have some scouts south of WF, and should have manned Moat Cailin as well. So yeah, Ramsay had no reason to think the Vale would head north, but every reason to think that one or both of his former southron allies may head north. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Mosse Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 2 minutes ago, wolverine said: It may be interesting to find out what exactly Sansa knew about the Vale army. A lot of speculation about this and we don't know the extent of her communication with LF. I think a lot turns on that point. Had she even heard anything from him. She couldn't really receive a raven without anyone knowing about it. It's possible some king of 'little bird'-esque messenger had got through to her, but we haven't seen any sign of that. It seems like if she had been certain, or close to certain, that the Knights of the Vale were on the way, surely she would have said something? But maybe not... we will find out somewhere along the line I reckon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quyen Thuy Tran Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 5 hours ago, yakisikli123 said: Not he cannot be, he should be angry with Sansa. There is no real explanation of her lying, (spies, is this a joke). The northeners wanted to fight for the winning side or they wanted to stay unbiased, what if they would knew about the Vale army. What if Jon would knew about the Vale army. It showed us Sansa wanted only revenge, not Winterfell and also not Rickon, that was only to deceive Jon. Is Sansa a beast now, she watched Ramsey dying and laughed. While I understand seeing Sansa's reaction to Ramsay, I feel like it's only for her revenge and there's no satisfaction for her killed family. Agree that the show has turned Sansa into an illogical person. I mean yes she might not trust Jon fully but they're on the same boat, withholding information means death for all. She's lucky that Jon last that long or else she will have no family member left to manipulate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya_Stormborn Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Re-watching the episode again tonight, it almost looked like Sansa still hadn't fully taken action yet as of her conversation with Jon in the war council room and decided to take further action after he basically shut her down. She kept looking at the table with her parchment on it as she was talking to him. So, maybe Littlefinger was "waiting in the wings" somewhere and wasn't planning to actually join the battle unless summoned? Maybe Sansa sent a messenger to tell him "Yeah, you need to come" only after she realized that Jon wasn't going to listen to her at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schwarze Sonne Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Well, that's quite BS to say that Sansa did nothing wrong and everything she did was good in the long run. Jon and the wildlings could have been all dead had the Vale army not arrived in time and Jon's special plot armor keeping him from getting killed during the chaotic battle scene. Sansa was playing the game and keeping Jon and companion in the dark while urging him to fight to take back Winterfell for her with his army. She was manipulating Jon and companion to do what she wanted, threating them like disposable tools. Sansa being all bitchy about not being asked for her advice was completely irrational because they didn't exclude her and she couldn't give any useful advice besides "You don't know Ramsay. I know him best. He'll see through all the traps you laid for him. He'll manipulate you. You can't fight him with those plans. We don't have enough men. And Rickon is toast." while she herself concealing the matter about LF's Vale army she wrote the letter to ask for as reinforcement. WIth the knowledge of possible reinforcement, the entire battle strategy would have changed. They'd just have to wait for half a day for the Vale army to arrive to flank the Boltons during the battle before thousands were killed. They could even have saved Rickon if the Bolton's bannermen were scared and betrayed Ramsay by handing over Rickon to them. Those possiblities were all gone when Sansa still didn't inform Jon at the last moment before teh battle. I find it hard to accept whatever BS reasons Sansa had for not informing Jon and companion about the Vale army. Jon almost died, thousands were killed pointlessly, Wun Wun kicked teh bucket, poor Rickon dead. I don't think that Sansa wanted Jon to die. It was just that she was acting like a smart kid threating people like her pawns, oblivious to the consequences. I find most review sites to say the line of "You can't blame Sansa!". Some find excuses for Sansa being bitchy to Jon and companion about them not listening to her even if her advice were actually useless, calling people who criticrized Sansa's actions as "Sansa haters", with excuses that Sansa was trying to tell Jon to do better and be more wary against Ramsay (like he could in that kind of situation), completely ignoring that Sansa couldn't even give an example of Ramsay's cunning besides yelling "You don't know him. I know him best!", and the most important matter of Sansa not telling Jon about the Vale army is excluded. Some even blatantly say that Sansa was right for not telling Jon about the Vale army because they were proved to be incompetent, incapable to winning the impossible battle, despite the obvious fact that the entire thing would have changed for positive outcomes had they known about the reinforcement. Ramsay sure is cunning but incredibly stupid. He could have killed Jon on two occasions: the first had he shot Jon instead of Rickon, the second had he shot Jon instead of Wun Wun. The bastard just had the peerless talent of pissing people off, but they came to bite him back badly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
messem Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 4 hours ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said: Agree that the show has turned Sansa into an illogical person. I strongly disagree. The Sansa fans here postulate now for years that she will become a player. I always doubted that but Sansa let the her little brother (the rightful heir to Winterfell aka the King in the North) die to become the Lady of Winterfell. That was a cold play. Well played Sansa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbunting Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 7 hours ago, Stonelands said: If Ramsay had seen the Vale army to begin with and holed up as a result then he would have had all his archers and crossbowman available to him on the wall. It's unlikely that Wun-Wun would have lived long enough to get the door down in that scenario. Except that they would have planned for an attack on the door and not for an open field battle. They would have constructed something for Wun Wun to hold over his head to protect him and others would have went with him. My thought would be 10 people around him with long poles holding a shield of some type over Wun Wun and him have a tree as a battering ram. Remember, Ramsey likely had no idea a giant was coming to Winterfell or he would have known he wasn't safe inside it's walls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Greenhands Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 23 hours ago, GilletteMace said: sansa fucked up. she killed the wildlings, she betrayed her brother, killed wun wun. sorry, but all the claims made in favour of her cannot convince me. she is not a traitor or something like that, she is just a miserable murderer. all she should have said is "wait 3 hours, we will get support by the vale." thats it. fuck sansa. She could not be sure they would show up. That would be an assumption for her, wait 3 hours and they might show up? I think she did the right thing, unless she knew for sure they were coming there is no need to tell Jon, hey the Vale might come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dames do Moan Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 He can and probably will be mad, but why should she have told him? She literally watched him do almost everything wrong, decide to attack knowing that it was a suicide mission, draw up a losing battle plan, and then not even follow that plan based in emotions and lead his army into a trap that would have gotten them slaughtered to the man. He completely underestimated Ramsey at every turn and every time she tried to give him advice she was basically ignored. The Vale making it to the North and avoiding Ramsey knowing was already by itself a greater feat than Jon or the Northern forces had put together. Seeing how tactical and smart Ramsey was being, he almost certainly had scouts out, but we've seen bigger armies move unawares before in show and book, always a good accomplishment (Stannis not being aware of Tywin/Tyrells, Robb sneaking the bulk of his army west at the Twins, even freaking Stannis and the wildlings, though who knows if they had scouts.) Even if she knew she had the Vale Army, why would she hand over that info, based on Jon's track record he would have screwed up how he decided to use them no doubt. Why not just hold them in reserve and the Vale generals, who have already proven to be more effective, divise strategy. They were needed and deployed exactly when it suited the overall Northern cause the most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 25 minutes ago, Mr. Greenhands said: She could not be sure they would show up. That would be an assumption for her, wait 3 hours and they might show up? I think she did the right thing, unless she knew for sure they were coming there is no need to tell Jon, hey the Vale might come. Then why the hell did she tell Jon to "wait"? Sansa did not plan/hope for a surprise-rescue with Jon's forces spent. She wanted him to wait for more army. And Jon asked her where he would get more army. And she shut up. If Sansa had told him about the Vale army, then Jon would have waited as she wanted and asked of him. She had the correct answer to convince Jon to do what she asked him to do, but she withheld it from him. That's not "smart". That's not "right". That's dumb as a stump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schwarze Sonne Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Robb's record is to win every battles who was directly responsible for, only to lose the war in bed (and Edmure's one big mistake as well as Roose' sending more rivals to die pointlessly). Jon's track record is to lose every battles (impossible to win by anyone anyway) only to emerge victorious by surprise helpers. His first big battle was to defend the wall against the wildlings, and he was very capable at that to stall for time until Slynt and Thorne ordered him to do suicide mission. The second big battle was this bastard bowl, with 2000 undisciplined wildlings and some hundreds bannermen against Ramsay's 6000 soldiers, consisting of 3 of the most powerful houses in the North. Even if Jon is not angry at Sansa, I'm sure the rest will be, especially Tormund, Davos and Lady Lyanna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Greenhands Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 1 hour ago, sweetsunray said: Then why the hell did she tell Jon to "wait"? Sansa did not plan/hope for a surprise-rescue with Jon's forces spent. She wanted him to wait for more army. And Jon asked her where he would get more army. And she shut up. If Sansa had told him about the Vale army, then Jon would have waited as she wanted and asked of him. She had the correct answer to convince Jon to do what she asked him to do, but she withheld it from him. That's not "smart". That's not "right". That's dumb as a stump. What reason would she have to wait? She isn't a bad person and she's not dumb either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 25 minutes ago, Mr. Greenhands said: What reason would she have to wait? She isn't a bad person and she's not dumb either. I'm not going to make up reasons why Sansa wants to wait. But I go by the fact that she SAYS this to Jon. She tells him repeatedly "Our army is not big enough. It's not enough" and she tells him "I would have told you not to attack WF UNTIL WE HAVE A LARGER FORCE" Quote Sansa: "Has it ever occurred to you that I might have some insight?" [snip] Jon: "Alright, tell me. What should we do? How do we get Rickon back?" [snip] Sansa: "Listen to me. Please, he wants you to make a mistake." Jon: "Of course he does. What should I do differently?" Sansa: "I don't know. I don't know anything about battles. Just don't do what he wants you to do." [snip] Sansa: "If you had asked my advice earlier I would have told you not to attack Winterfell until we have a larger force. It's that obvious too." Jon: "When will we have a larger force? We've pleaded with every house that'll help us. The Blackfish can't help us. We're lucky to have this many men." Sansa: "It's not enough!" Jon: "I know it's not enough. It's what we have." Sansa: SAYS NOTHING Conclusion: Sansa is saying in 6x09 and the previous episode when they arrive at the same campsite as Stannis that she wants Jon to WAIT and HOLD OFF an attack until they have a LARGER FORCE. And she's the ONLY one who knows there's a LARGER FORCE eager to join them. You don't tell someone you think they need to wait until there's a larger force, unless you count on that larger force joining you, not after that miserable tour of the North has Altzheimers. So, the whole argument that Sansa "wasn't sure" or "spies" or whatever honeypot people smear onto that scene is , because Sansa explicitly urges him to wait with attacking UNTIL Jon has a bigger force (aka wildlings + 62 Mormonts + Vale army). Book-Sansa is not dumb, nor a bad person. But show-Sansa is now a petty passive aggressive dumbass who caught psychopathy like the flue or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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