Jon Cannot Be Angry With Sansa

[Cold Hands warm heart]

It depends on where the show wishes to take this. Sansa's actions not only cost lives but honor too. The little support they do have, Bear Island  and others, could also feel betrayed by Sansa's actions. Many lives could of been saved had she been forthcoming. Yeah Jon needs to be pissed, he was/is the Commander of their "Army", it all goes through him.  When all is said and done she maybe the "Lady of Winterfell", but that is all.

   But we all know it does not end here. The Freys' and the Lannisters maybe coming and we know the White Walkers are on the march. One day soon Sansa maybe wishing she had a hell of a lot more men in the arsenal.

 

[Ice Spider]

34 minutes ago, Cold Hands warm heart said:

It depends on where the show wishes to take this. Sansa's actions not only cost lives but honor too. The little support they do have, Bear Island  and others, could also feel betrayed by Sansa's actions. Many lives could of been saved had she been forthcoming. Yeah Jon needs to be pissed, he was/is the Commander of their "Army", it all goes through him.  When all is said and done she maybe the "Lady of Winterfell", but that is all.

   But we all know it does not end here. The Freys' and the Lannisters maybe coming and we know the White Walkers are on the march. One day soon Sansa maybe wishing she had a hell of a lot more men in the arsenal.

 

Bull ****, Sansa's actions saved lives. Jon's actions cost lives. Sansa now has the full support of the Vale army, who had very little casualty's from the battle. She will also most likely gain the support of the northern houses that stayed neutral.

 

I still can't believe how utterly clueless some people on here are in regards to how the battle would have played out should Jon had waited a few days and attacked WF with the Bolton forces holed up within WF. The Lannister Army isn't going North, and the Frey's are a joke.  

[HighAndMightyBrightness]

55 minutes ago, Cold Hands warm heart said:

Yeah Jon needs to be pissed, he was/is the Commander of their "Army", it all goes through him.  When all is said and done she maybe the "Lady of Winterfell", but that is all.

 

 

There you go folks. Keep in mind that Sansa needs to become a person of her own and needs to test out her instincts, which has been consistently more accurate lately.

Plans from a former rape victim seems like an easily dismissable one, especially when it involves Littlefinger. If Jon dismisses her idea - which is very likely - then it does not stop there: it also means that she can no longer go against Jon's direct commands and continue to use Littlefinger. What should she listen to then: Jon's brash commands or her justified instincts. If Jon dismisses her, she is in a no win situation anyways.

With Sansa's "deception", if Jon wins without requiring the Army of the Vale, then good on him. If Jon ends up needing the army and Littlefinger ends up betraying Sansa, then there was nothing she could do anyways: at least she would know that her instincts were definitely wrong. It is her right of personhood  to test out her ideas and become an independent person. Time is short and she needs to test them out now.

And if her instincts were correct, Jon's genuineness makes the best bait for Ramsay - and Sansa's basic strategy  is the only viably quick strategy before the approach of the Long Night.

Please LordPathera/Cold Hands, see reason and look at Osha. If Jon was not genuine in his attacks and blunders like Osha was not genuine in her lovemaking, the entire Stark army may have likely perished. Yes, Jon is a good fighter like Osha was a good killer. None of these things will terminate Ramsay alone.

[Ice Spider]

5 hours ago, LordPathera said:

It's an example of a viable alternative made available to Jon's planning if Sansa didn't withhold need-to-know information and trust the least trustworthy person in Westeros over her own brother.

It is the most dimwitted alternative I have ever heard. I stopped reading your post right after that. Good lord. Rallying Northern forces to retake WF was hard enough, how many would have came to their aid to attack the dreadfort? And for what? To loose a good portion of your army for  a reason that doesn't help your objectives one Iota?

[yakisikli123]

They reunited again and bam she lied and why, because Jon is not a capable commander ?

No that cannot be, because she didnt know him being a good commander or not.

There should be another explanation, she wanted her revenge and also queen of winterbetrayers

[LordPathera]

7 hours ago, Ice Spider said:

It is the most dimwitted alternative I have ever heard. I stopped reading your post right after that. Good lord. Rallying Northern forces to retake WF was hard enough, how many would have came to their aid to attack the dreadfort? And for what? To loose a good portion of your army for  a reason that doesn't help your objectives one Iota?

It's better than what the show's bad writing. Plus, if you'd read the post then you'd understand the point behind my example. It's an alternative among other alternatives that Jon could consider once Sansa trusts him and tells him about the incoming Vale reinforcements.

7 hours ago, HighAndMightyBrightness said:

There you go folks. Keep in mind that Sansa needs to become a person of her own and needs to test out her instincts, which has been consistently more accurate lately.

Plans from a former rape victim seems like an easily dismissable one, especially when it involves Littlefinger. If Jon dismisses her idea - which is very likely - then it does not stop there: it also means that she can no longer go against Jon's direct commands and continue to use Littlefinger. What should she listen to then: Jon's brash commands or her justified instincts. If Jon dismisses her, she is in a no win situation anyways.

With Sansa's "deception", if Jon wins without requiring the Army of the Vale, then good on him. If Jon ends up needing the army and Littlefinger ends up betraying Sansa, then there was nothing she could do anyways: at least she would know that her instincts were definitely wrong. It is her right of personhood  to test out her ideas and become an independent person. Time is short and she needs to test them out now.

And if her instincts were correct, Jon's genuineness makes the best bait for Ramsay - and Sansa's basic strategy  is the only viably quick strategy before the approach of the Long Night.

Please LordPathera/Cold Hands, see reason and look at Osha. If Jon was not genuine in his attacks and blunders like Osha was not genuine in her lovemaking, the entire Stark army may have likely perished. Yes, Jon is a good fighter like Osha was a good killer. None of these things will terminate Ramsay alone.

So she risks her brother and the small amount of people genuinely loyal to her family as a test? She gambles on Westeros' least-trustworthy person coming in to save the day?

How is Jon likely to dismiss Sansa? He's been listening to her this whole time. It was her idea for him to help retake the North and rally the northern lords and he let her send Brienne to recruit the Blackfish. 

And again, just because her plan happened to work, that doesn't excuse that her deception was completely unnecessary. Just see reason and admit that what Sansa did was stupid, wrong and unnecessary.

[TheKitttenGuard]

"Ramsey does not fall for traps, he sets them"- Sansa Stark

The biggest complaint of Ramsey is that he was practically a "Mary Sue" and felt kind invincible.  Ramsey always is one step of everyone throughout the entire time we have been with Ramsey.  So, by the evidence given with the show Ramsey will always know if something plan and will be one step ahead.

So, the problem with Sansa telling Jon is once Jon know he will set a trap which Ramsey will figure it out.

The only way to trap Ramsey is to not plan for a trap.

The only way to not plan a trap is to have two parties engage without either knowing that what is going on is a trap.

So, the only way Ramsey will be trapped with the Knights of the Vale is that Jon could not know. If he did and planned a trap Ramsey will know since he will never fall for it.

 

I think this will be the explanation Sansa to Jon is that if Jon knew, he plan for a trap, and Ramsey will not fall for it.

[Bear42]

I can see how people defend Sansa's information holding if you look at it from the perspective of her doing what is best for herself.  Letting Jon's and Ramsay's forces fight in earnest and then coming through with LF and mopping up what's left is a decent plan if she simply wants to take WF and that's it.  However the title of the thread is "Jon cannot be angry with Sansa" and that is incorrect.  At best she used him as bait, and as Rickon knows, the nature of being the bait is usually sacrificial.  If you want to claim that what she did was smart planning then so be it, but that means she sent Jon out there to die (and he most certainly should have died).  So should Jon be mad at Sansa?  Of course.  Did she make the wrong decision?  That's less clear.

[Eva aka Pinkfox]

There is one thing I cannot put out of my mind... in many place they have been saying either Sansa is dumb or Sansa is very cold and cunning... but I have been wondering if Sansa was unable to trust Jon with the information about the Vale army because she didn't know how.  

If we look at what happened to her in the show... betrayed in King's Landing, no one there to really trust, betrayed by Littlefinger in a way when he married her of to Ramsey Bolton, the treatment by Ramsey. All those things might simply have been led to the point where Sansa simply doesn't know how to trust anyone anymore, even her brother. 

[Battle Kitten]

I posted this in the other thread too but these are my thoughts.  Jon has no room to blame Sansa.  I think Sansa will have a big price to pay to Littlefinger in the end too, unless Jon kills him for some reason.

On 6/20/2016 at 5:06 AM, Martin Rheaume said:

She seriously has a lot of nerve complaining about not being involved in the planning of the battle. She first refused the knights of the Vale without telling anyone. Then, she lets them plan the whole battle without essential information that she's withholding, and complains that they won't listen to her. I guarantee if she had told them she had access to thousands knights, they would have taken her very seriously

 

I haven't read this whole thread so if I am retreading, my apologies.

I really do not get the Sansa hate. Littlefinger essentially sold her off to the Boltons in order to back a back door deal with Cersei to claim Winterfell and the North for himself.  All Sansa knows is he married her off to a psychopath.  She rightfully doesn't trust him.

So she sends him on his way assuming the Northern Lords would rally to the Stark cause only to find out that isn't the case. Jon doesn't listen when she repeatedly tells him they don't have enough men.  She tells Jon to wait.  Jon won't.

She swallows her pride and eats crow to send a Raven to Littlefinger.  We at this time do not know if she promised him her hand or if she was just calling in a favor.  She also DOES NOT know if Littlefinger will show up.  After she blew him off, it would be quite reasonable to assume he would send a raven with a big giant middle finger drawn on it.  She does not tell Jon for this very obvious reason.  She 1)  can't trust him and doesn't know what strings will be attached to his help and 2) doesn't know if he will show up.  Telling Jon at this point might put them at risk because the Vele may never show or send word to Ramsey.  Remember, Littlefinger is still technically their "ally."  Why put hope into something that may not come to fruition?  Also, she was still hoping that Jon would try to get through to more houses and bulk up his forces without needing the Vale.

Jon decides to go forth despite the odds against him because "he has fought worse at the Wall."  Like that's a great combat strategy.  Jon plays right into Ramsey's trap.  His forces charge forward when they should have stayed back for rather obvious reasons.  The "pincher" move is now out of questions.

Littlefinger showing up now saves the day, but we still don't know how this plays out.  Littlefinger's original plan was to let Stannis and the Boltons duke it out and deplete their forces so that he can sweep right in.  So one of the players changed. We don't know what he is up to.  All we know is Jon would be a dead man had Sansa not solicited his help.  I also believe Jon would have gone forward regardless if he knew the Vale was on his way.

So I really have yet to understand how Sansa becomes the asshole in all of this.  Had she not played the only hand she had, everyone would be dead and Winterfell would stay with Rasmey.  I believe Sansa did the best she could with the resources she had and next week we will find out WHY she did what she did when she has her huggy moment with Jon.  Ultimately, we do know she believes she has only herself to protect herself.

[Battle Kitten]

12 minutes ago, Eva aka Pinkfox said:

There is one thing I cannot put out of my mind... in many place they have been saying either Sansa is dumb or Sansa is very cold and cunning... but I have been wondering if Sansa was unable to trust Jon with the information about the Vale army because she didn't know how.  

If we look at what happened to her in the show... betrayed in King's Landing, no one there to really trust, betrayed by Littlefinger in a way when he married her of to Ramsey Bolton, the treatment by Ramsey. All those things might simply have been led to the point where Sansa simply doesn't know how to trust anyone anymore, even her brother. 

This is very true.  I think her motivations are good but she has been trained very well not to trust anyone.  People have promised her many things have ultimately been acting in their own motivations to her peril.  The only person so far who has offered but not taken from her was the Hound but he was too damn menacing.  She told Jon straight up no one can protest anyone.  She played the only card she could knowing Littlefinger is going to have something up his sleeve.  She also knew going in that if things went south for the Stark army, there would be nothing stopping Littlefinger. Jon has no army now.  There isn't much left of it.

[HighAndMightyBrightness]

18 hours ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

"Ramsey does not fall for traps, he sets them"- Sansa Stark

The biggest complaint of Ramsey is that he was practically a "Mary Sue" and felt kind invincible.  Ramsey always is one step of everyone throughout the entire time we have been with Ramsey.  So, by the evidence given with the show Ramsey will always know if something plan and will be one step ahead.

So, the problem with Sansa telling Jon is once Jon know he will set a trap which Ramsey will figure it out.

The only way to trap Ramsey is to not plan for a trap.

The only way to not plan a trap is to have two parties engage without either knowing that what is going on is a trap.

So, the only way Ramsey will be trapped with the Knights of the Vale is that Jon could not know. If he did and planned a trap Ramsey will know since he will never fall for it.

 

I think this will be the explanation Sansa to Jon is that if Jon knew, he plan for a trap, and Ramsey will not fall for it.

Very good!!! LordPath should recognize the truth of this post!

[bent branch]

Sansa left her allies without full knowledge of the situation. Even if she didn't know whether the Vale would show up or not, she should have told Jon what was going on. Sansa is completely unreliable. If I were Jon I wouldn't trust her at all anymore. Furthermore, I wouldn't trust anyone who is defending her at this point either. If you are my ally and you withhold information from me that may or may not save my life, then you have just betrayed me. No amount of excuses can make up for this betrayal.

[watcher of the night]

Yes he can and he should be.

No one says that Sansa should have given detailed military plan to Jon. But she should have told the info she had and let Jon and co. decide what to do with it.

Also she should have given a more detailed advice on Ramsay after all "she knows Ramsay better than anyone else". He could have prepared Jon what kind of traps to expect or tell Jon how Ramsay manipulates people. If she expected Ramsy to manipulate Jon with Rickon then she should have told that. "Hey, Jon Ramsay might try to lure you out with rickon, don't  fall for that." But she said none of that, she gave the most general, most vague advice. She also could have told it before (yes, without being explicitely asked!) during the meeting, she could have even warned Davos and Tormund: "Hey guys don't let Jon do this or that , you know he is passonate about Rickon." etc. Yet again she said none of it.

All in all, she had info both on military matters (huge friendly force is on the way) and psyhological matters (how Ramsay works) yet she decided to withold both info.

[JonSnow4President]

This thread is quite frankly amazing to me.  The amount of mental gymnastics going on to try and justify someone withholding information from their brother that leads to the death of another brother and the near death of that brother is just amazing.

Ramsey has Rickon.  Jon has to try and save his family member Rickon using the forces available to him.  As far as Jon knows, he has the maximum number of forces he will ever have, so he has to make do with that.  Sansa tells him to wait, which doesn't in any way help their situation unless there were more forces coming.  Otherwise, they run the risk of their forces undergoing attrition as a poorly supplied army in Winter.  Jon had to bring the fight to Ramsey, or give up.  

Knowing an additional 30,000 (book estimate), or whatever it is in the how, of trained, heavy calvary are (or may be) coming is the type of game changer worth waiting for.  Your sister telling you to wait but not explaining why is not.

[Dragonslack]

Her actions make no sense, it's a plot hole. DD only care about the visuals and figure that the viewers are stupid or dont care or notice. It's like arya vs waife, there was nothing there except bad writing.

[Cron]

I've read many posts on this subject over the last several days, and I'm sorry, but I believe Sansa's failure to tell Jon about the Valemen is absolutely indefensible, and very likely cost Jon's forces hundreds of lives, and quite possibly, in my opinion, cost Rickon his life as well (some people, including Sansa, claim Rickon was dead anyway, but I'm not so sure.  If Ramsay saw the huge forces amassing, he may well have decided it was time to do some hostage negotiations, which is a very time honored tradition in Westeros, of course) .

In war, knowledge and information ("intellilgence") are critical.  Sansa withheld crucial information that any commander in his right mind (i.e., Jon) would surely have wanted desperately to know, with which information the war council (Jon, Tormund, Davos, all of whom are vastly more experienced in warfare than Sansa) may well have been able to come up with a much better plan of attack.

My goodness, if Sansa had told Jon even the night before, they could have sent a rider or two south to see what they could see, which would have resulted, we now know, with the information that "Hey, they're almost here, all we've got to do is wait 20 more minutes before we attack!"

[Kusanagi]

I have encountered someone suggesting that Sansa not mentioning Littlefinger's army movement would gain Jon Snow some leverage or neutralise Littlefinger's leverage over Snow.

Just. No. Not gonna happen.

Let's suppose that's that case and Snow for some reason decided to wait. The next day Littlefinger arrives, then what? You would still have to explain wouldn't you? And by not telling you don't allow Snow to make contingency plan, to think about the political impact, and try to come up with a way to mitigate it. Furthermore, telling or not, esp. as the the way the Battle turns out, Snow would still owe Littlefinger his life.

The only 'reasonable' explanation I can think of is that Sansa wants to gain leverage over Snow, so she allows her bastard brother to fail or have his force decimated. That would make Sansa the most evil person in the whole Seven Kingdoms, more evil than slaves owning masters.

[Chib]

Lol, Sansa is designed to be Cersei 2.0 and people still don't believe. 

[Kusanagi]

I believe that's what Caitylin would have done if she were Sansa. Littefinger must loves them for some reason.