So what is Sansa's plan? (Possible spoilers)

[OldGimletEye]

12 minutes ago, Tchzaelous said:

Because he was leading the army. Witholding information gets people killed (like half your army SANSA)... Pretty sure that's Littlefinger's entire mantra.

Besides, as a Stark, Sansa should know how loyal that would make Jon. Including him in on plans is the smartest thing you can do. As you yourself just stated he's Ned in spirit... the MOST reliable ally to have realistically. Is Jon going to turn on Sansa. No. Is he going to lock her up and try and marry her off for political gain. No. Is he going to flay her if their army wins. NO.

Why in the Gods' sake would you NOT want to win a war?

I think we have to acknowledge that Jon made a very unwise decision at the battle. So, he does bear some responsibility there.

On the other hand. What often loses battles is piss poor planning. Good planning is typically pretty crucial. And it's hard to plan when you don't have all the information in front of you. Information is vital.

And Sansa should have at least known that. The night before the battle, nobody knows exactly what is going to happen exactly the next day. But, they should all know, that every potential detail needs to be thought about and hashed out. Even though Sansa is no military person, she should had at least some sense of that.

The fact of the matter, is that realistically, lots of shit could have happened where the Vale forces wouldn't have arrived on the battlefied on time. Timing is everything in that situation. And a mulititude of things can go wrong, like say the Vale Army getting lost or something. Shit like that does happen in the real world. The dumbest little thing can make things go awry. And that little dumb shit that can fuck up a battle plan needs to be thought about and addressed. That's my big issue with Sansa not telling Jon about the Vale forces. She was winging it. And winging it, usually ain't good enough, particularly when your forces are divided in the face of the enemy, which is a dangerous situation.

Piss poor planning usually leads to piss poor performance.

 

[Future Null Infinity]

28 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

And while we're not given a solid reason by for Sansa's actions, it seems the fact he was a bastard seems to be the main reason, as suggested by LF's "half-brother" comment and not because Sansa had serious doubts about Jon's basic command abilities.

Yes, she didn't trust him, she have BlackFish behind her because of her name and the Vale's army because of her name, she was in position of force, she needed her revenge on ramsay, she literally told him : ok, you want to attack?, you don't want to listen to me?, ok, go die with the pathetic wildlings, I will bring my army

[OldGimletEye]

7 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

Yes, she didn't trust him, she have BlackFish behind her because of her name and the Vale's army because of her name, she was in position of force, she needed her revenge on ramsay, she literally told him : ok, you want to attack?, you don't want to listen to me?, ok, go die, I will bring my army

It's not like she gave Jon specific advice to make a strategic withdraw. She didn't do that. And besides such advice by her would have been nonsense if she had reason to believe that the Vale Army was in the vicinity. Which she must have had, because she would have never found them and have had enough time to bring them to the battle.

And again, her advice had little to do with the main tactical problem facing Jon and his army.  

If she had actually told Jon that the Vale Army was on it's way, then maybe Jon and his forces would have tried to delay the battle to the extent practicable. But, since Jon had no idea that a Vale force was in the vicinity, he had little reason to try and to delay the engagement with Ramsay.

Finally, her reasons for not basically trusting Jon, as suggested earlier, weren't really that great.

 

[Future Null Infinity]

2 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

It's not like she gave Jon specific advice to make a strategic withdraw. She didn't do that. And besides such advice by her would have been nonsense if she had reason to believe that the Vale Army was in the vicinity. Which she must have had, because she would have never found them.

And again, her advice had little to do with the main tactical problem facing Jon and his army.  

If she had actually told Jon that the Vale Army was on it's way, then maybe Jon and his forces would have tried to delay the battle to the extent practicable. But, sense Jon had no idea that a Vale force was in the vicinity, he had little reason to try and to delay the engagement with Ramsay.

 

I'm talking about this scene :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5z3-RYe-Yg

she begged him to recruit more men from house cerwyn, he didn't listen, it was the moment when Sansa knew that Jon can't listen to advices, she can't simply trust someone who can't listen, she called the vale, she gave him another advice but he screwed big time, she withheld the information and she acted alone and she saved him and winterfell

[OldGimletEye]

21 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

I'm talking about this scene :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5z3-RYe-Yg

she begged him to recruit more men from house cerwyn, he didn't listen, it was the moment when Sansa knew that Jon can't listen to advices, she can't simply trust someone who can't listen, she called the vale, she gave him another advice but he screwed big time, she withheld the information and she acted alone and she saved him and winterfell

Okay, for whatever reason, Jon doesn't believe that they have time to recruit more men. Now it's true that Jon doesn't state the reason. It may have been a good reason. It may have been a bad reason. We don't know.That doesn't mean he is not listening to her. He just disagrees with her assessment of the situation. It happens.

And even if Jon was wrong here and made the wrong call, how does that exactly excuse Sansa from not telling Jon about the Vale Army? How does that excuse her not telling him about the Vale Army the very night before the battle? It doesn't. Had Jon known about the Vale Army, then maybe Sansa riding in to save his ass the last minute never happens.

For instance, had Jon known about the Vale Army very early, maybe he would have been able to unite the forces under Ramsay's nose (since evidently Ramsay's recon ain't too good), which prevents the dangerous situation of having to unite two forces in the face of the enemy.

And maybe with the forces united, against Ramsay, Jon has Sansa right at his side during the battle to warn him against any of Ramsay's tricks, rather than Sansa galloping off to god knows where.

Or maybe, if Jon had known about the Vale Army the night before the battle, he would have tried to delay the onset of the battle, giving the Vale Army more time to arrive.

 

[robasp2]

And recruit how many more men?

31?

5?

She just said I eant more I want more. Who the hell is going to give her more?

Jon was correct there...there is no more.

[Future Null Infinity]

14 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

And even if Jon was wrong here and made the wrong call, how does that exactly excuse Sansa from telling Jon about the Vale Army? How does that excuse her not telling him about the Vale Army the very night before the battle? It doesn't. Had Jon known about the Vale Army, then maybe Sansa riding in to save his ass the last minute never happens.

I'm not excusing her, but I think she was blinded by the revenge, she wanted ramsay soo badly, she put the thing in her head, she don't care about anything, like she said to jon "I will go alone if I have to" and she did it, She went alone, she knew the ragtag army will not do anything, she knew the stark way of thinking "we can win even with a smaller army" and honour and courage and bla bla bla is so dumb

[OldGimletEye]

7 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

I'm not excusing her, but I think she was blinded by the revenge, 

I think the more that I think about this issue I believe both her and Jon were wrong and both made mistakes. If Sansa really feels she is being disrespected, then Jon should try to respect her feelings there, and make time to listen to her. And of course, Sansa needs to acknowledge she can trust Jon and withholding info from him isn't a good way to build trust.

[Drago]

45 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Okay, for whatever reason, Jon doesn't believe that they have time to recruit more men. Now it's true that Jon doesn't state the reason. It may have been a good reason. It may have been a bad reason. We don't know.That doesn't mean he is not listening to her. He just disagrees with her assessment of the situation. It happens.

And even if Jon was wrong here and made the wrong call, how does that exactly excuse Sansa from not telling Jon about the Vale Army? How does that excuse her not telling him about the Vale Army the very night before the battle? It doesn't. Had Jon known about the Vale Army, then maybe Sansa riding in to save his ass the last minute never happens.

For instance, had Jon known about the Vale Army very early, maybe he would have been able to unite the forces under Ramsay's nose (since evidently Ramsay's recon ain't too good), which prevents the dangerous situation of having to unite two forces in the face of the enemy.

And maybe with the forces united, against Ramsay, Jon has Sansa right at his side during the battle to warn him against any of Ramsay's tricks, rather than Sansa galloping off to god knows where.

Or maybe, if Jon had known about the Vale Army the night before the battle, he would have tried to delay the onset of the battle, giving the Vale Army more time to arrive.

 

Totally Agree!

[Drago]

I hope little Lady Mormont gives Sansa a serve for not giving vital information to the battle commander, I would enjoy that very much. That battle would have panned out much better for the stark army if she had of used 1 brain cell instead of having her head up her arse. 

[Lady Sansa's Direwolf]

I don't know if this was mentioned upstream but, Sansa had to win. If the Boltons remain in power, she's hostage. Even winning, she has nowhere else she can go. South of the Neck, she's a fugitive from the crown..She needs Winterfell to protect herself from her enemies. While we know the true enemies are to the North, everyone she fears is to the South. In Winterfell with an army, Jon, and the others from protection Cersei cannot touch her. She truly will be 'safe' again. While she may be glad to have Jon with her, as he is blood, only Winterfell can protect her from the Lannisters and the Freys and the Tyrells. 

She knows Littlefinger helped Olenna kill Joffrey and did kill Lysa. She thinks she has even information to keep Littlefinger at arm's length. But now Jon needs the North and the Vale to fight the White Walker and the Night King. Regardless of how everyone got there, a shit load of people are now in position to present an obstacle to the army of the dead. 

Sansa, as Lady of Winterfell, will finally get to put what Catelyn taught her to use. "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell." Why not her?

[robasp2]

Why the hell does everyone assume that Jon would have fucked up even if he had the Vale army?

The Vale is not obviously going to be led by Jon.

Moreover why the hell is no one blaming Daavos? He was the one who told the entire army to charge head on.

Jon went alone to save his brother...

[awearyman]

21 hours ago, tinka10 said:

I had the same impression during that shot. She looked very smug until she saw Jon. "Oh, you're still alive?" Wanting Winterfell for herself would explain why she refused to tell him about the Vale.

I was a bit confused with her facial expressions once the Vale saved the day, as well. However, I chalked it up as poor acting ability. I did give pause thinking that she was so damaged by Ramsey and the rest of the countless abusers shes been subjected to that she doesnt trust anyone, not even her brother. "Halfbrother".

[Korvin]

 

16 hours ago, IrisBest said:

God not more of this "Sansa wanted Jon dead" nonsense. There's nothing remotely accurate about this and it's delusional at best and trolling at worst.

This!

[Lady Claire]

Jon fell in Ramsay's trap, ok, he was naive, he played Ramsay's game. But who could have imagined a different reaction from Jon Snow?! It was totally in his character: if he didn't try to save Rickon, we wouldn't have recognized him. He risked his own life for his brother, he didn't involve his army in that moment. Jon is honorable and willing to sacrifice as Ned. In Game of Thrones to survive you should be smart and merciless, but that's not Jon Snow. 

Catelyn freed Jaime to save her daughters, Sansa didn't even want to take a chance with Rickon. Maybe she was blinded by revenge or maybe she's enjoying power, I don't know, but she had to tell Jon the truth about Littlefinger. She criticized him, Davos, the wildlings and that was already annoying. And in the end when Jon told her "There are no more men", she said not a single word!

[plastic throne]

21 minutes ago, Lady Claire said:

Jon fell in Ramsay's trap, ok, he was naive, he played Ramsay's game. But who could have imagined a different reaction from Jon Snow?! It was totally in his character: if he didn't try to save Rickon, we wouldn't have recognized him. He risked his own life for his brother, he didn't involve his army in that moment. Jon is honorable and willing to sacrifice as Ned. In Game of Thrones to survive you should be smart and merciless, but that's not Jon Snow. 

Catelyn freed Jaime to save her daughters, Sansa didn't even want to take a chance with Rickon. Maybe she was blinded by revenge or maybe she's enjoying power, I don't know, but she had to tell Jon the truth about Littlefinger. She criticized him, Davos, the wildlings and that was already annoying. And in the end when Jon told her "There are no more men", she said not a single word!

Nah, Jon might be hot headed when it comes to family, but he would've been stopped by his most trusted ones, put him to reason then send someone else to fetch the kid, after all, Jon ain't the only one in the North who can ride a horse. That's what would happen.

Book Jon eventually always falls to reason, when he left the NW to assist Robb, Arya situation,... Further on when he sends a ranger party across the wall (or Val,...) he's constantly troubled/worried if he sent few men to their deaths, and now you're saying he'd be ok by putting thousands into a mortal trap?

[Future Null Infinity]

5 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

For instance, had Jon known about the Vale Army very early, maybe he would have been able to unite the forces under Ramsay's nose (since evidently Ramsay's recon ain't too good), which prevents the dangerous situation of having to unite two forces in the face of the enemy.

I saw a theory and a reviewer on youtube saying that maybe Sansa withhled the information of the Army of the Vale for one reason : if Sansa told Jon about the army of the vale and ramsay knew about it then he will choose the option of the siege, he will stay inside Winterfell and the siege may take months, she didn't tell anyone to make ramsay overconfident about his victory and lure him outside Winterfell in a open field using the winldlings as bait, maybe some people will whine about the life of the wildlings but I bet those poeple cheered for Stannis when he slaughtered them at the wall, but if the theory is right, for me it will be the most genius strategic move ever thought since Stannis' death

[Lady Claire]

14 minutes ago, plastic throne said:

Nah, Jon might be hot headed when it comes to family, but he would've been stopped by his most trusted ones, put him to reason then send someone else to fetch the kid, after all, Jon ain't the only one in the North who can ride a horse. That's what would happen.

Book Jon eventually always falls to reason, when he left the NW to assist Robb, Arya situation,... Further on when he sends a ranger party across the wall (or Val,...) he's constantly troubled/worried if he sent few men to their deaths, and now you're saying he'd be ok by putting thousands into a mortal trap?

I'm saying the opposite actually: he would sacrifice himself instead of his men. He ran into Ramsay's trap, he didn't order anything to his army. 

He wasn't even sure about going to war against Ramsay, Sansa pushed him. Even when she told him the wildlings owed him support, Jon disagreed: he knew he didn't have enough men to win. He even proposed a duel to Ramsay to avoid the battle! 

[plastic throne]

Again, only an idiot commander would think him falling in battle before the battle even begins would have zero effect on his army. Speaking from his men's POV, we have Jon Snow, resurrected from the dead, their savoir against the WW, their 'king', solo charging like an idiot (those guys in front rows don't get the epic music or camera angle with his charge like we viewers do), and die few hundred meters away. Logic applied, people (army) will disperse immediately or retreat at first hint of defeat, probably on first cavalry charge. Any sane (let alone capable commander) would know this.

Jon (book one at least) would've know this, recognize this or (hot headed as he can be in family matters) be stopped by Davos or someone else close to him. And then they would send someone else to fetch the kid because Jon is not the only person in the North who can ride a horse

[Lady Claire]

I get this, but it was his brother. Ramsay made the perfect trap for a man like Jon.

Sending someone else would have been the smarter and more reasonable move. Nevertheless like when he was going to desert the NW for helping Robb, when it comes to his family Jon loses his mind.