Sansa is obnoxious

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

A stray though: who, among the major characters in the show, isn't obnoxious? Seriously. Jon? Tyrion? Dany? Arya?

[Rumy Stark]

19 hours ago, RhaeBee said:

And yes, Jon did everything Sansa asked, except wait one more day and had he known why he was supposed to wait, he would have. 

Actually other than pointing out that they didn't have enough people and should wait, the only thing Sansa asked Jon was that he not let Ramsay get in his head. She explained that Ramsay is a master of mind-games and straight up told Jon not to let him win that game. That is the one thing Jon didn't do, and it's why any military planning Jon and Davos did ended up not mattering. Ramsay played with Jon's head by killing Rickon as sadistically as possible, and Jon got caught in the trap and forgot who he was and what he was doing and went at Ramsay in a blind rage. While I doubt Jon et al could have won on their own, they certainly lost because Jon let Ramsay get to him and did exactly what Ramsay wanted. If Jon had listened to the one actual piece of advice Sansa gave him, it would have played out very differently. (I'm not counting The Vale's last minute win as Jon's, because it wasn't.)

Don't get me wrong, I'm still really annoyed and upset that Sansa kept The Vale army a secret, and I'm #TeamJon all the way, but the one thing that was clear in the ep is that Jon did not, in fact, do everything Sansa asked. And that was his critical error. 

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

BS: either they are so superior in forces they don't need a surprise, or they could still meet and agree with the Vale forces to lure Ramsay into a trap of thinking he'd be attacking a minor rag-tag army with the Vale knights coming. But d$d love ex-machina wins for battles too much, instead of actually putting together a tactical sound battle with a commander using the available terrain as a smart trap and winning it because he's smart even the odds in numbers seem against him. (Ya know, like the NIght Lamp theory for the Battle of Ice)

And then I'm completely ignoring all the shitty scripting about how anyone hides an army of 10000 strong, let alone taking Moat Cailin, which Ramsay freed from IB before, or the stupidity of Sansa worrying about sending a raven in one episode, then not minding in another to the middle of nowhere (ravens with mysterious LF and Sansa GPSs)

Yep all of this is really bothersome. Agreed. 

[Red Tiger]

8 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Well, I would agree it was pure lazy writing, that imo went like this.

"Oh let's have a battle of bastards" => But Jon was ressurected from the dead, so everybody will believe he'll win, can't have that, can we => no, so we have to make it look like he'll lose => yup, we give North Altzheimer, he gets almost no allies and we'll give Ramsay the big army support => yeah and let's get rid of Rickon too as well. We can use him for emotional manipulation and have Jon make a mistake so that it will really look like he'll lose and die => yeah, yeah, euhm but how is he gong to win though? => Well LF has to make up with Sansa, so let's get the Vale army make Ramsay lose => Problem: if the audience knows that LF is coming with a Vale army, then everybody will know the Vale army will help Jon win => What if we make it ambiguous, make the audience doubt he'll show up => How are we gonna do that? => Well, Sansa rejects the offer first, but because of that she keeps it secret => oh, yeah, that'll create some brother-sister tension between them, yadayadayda

Now, was there anyone with the viewers who actually believed Jon was gonna die? Was there anyone with the viewers who actually believed that the Vale would return and go home and not save the day?

Nope... So, they butchered characterization for faux-tension

 

I know and I agree 100%, but I just wanted to point it out cause there are a ton of conspiracy theories saying Sansa doesnt care about her family and just wants power and I think people are drawing too many conclusions off of poor directing and writing.

And yeah, the Jon Snow plot armor went over 9000 in this episode.

[sweetsunray]

9 minutes ago, Red Tiger said:

I know and I agree 100%, but I just wanted to point it out cause there are a ton of conspiracy theories saying Sansa doesnt care about her family and just wants power and I think people are drawing too many conclusions off of poor directing and writing.

And yeah, the Jon Snow plot armor went over 9000 in this episode.

Well, I'm not convinced Sansa "wanted" or "planned" to betray Jon. But their lazy writing resulted in what I see as a petty, passive aggressive child, pretty much heartless to her actual allies, strategically dumb and selfish, and catching psychoathy like the flue by Ramsay's words and her smirk. I know that's not the impression of Sansa that d$d were gunning for most likely. But based on the writing of Sansa in S6, her behaviour, her actions and her words she's no empowered smart young woman to me. I'd put her in the corner or a time-out chair for acting like a brat.

[Red Tiger]

3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Well, I'm not convinced Sansa "wanted" or "planned" to betray Jon. But their lazy writing resulted in what I see as a petty, passive aggressive child, pretty much heartless to her actual allies, strategically dumb and selfish, and catching psychoathy like the flue by Ramsay's words and her smirk. I know that's not the impression of Sansa that d$d were gunning for most likely. But based on the writing of Sansa in S6, her behaviour, her actions and her words she's no empowered smart young woman to me. I'd put her in the corner or a time-out chair for acting like a brat.

I agree.

[HellasLEAF]

I think we are blaming Sansa and we should be blaming the writers.  

Purely strategically speaking, of course she should have let Jon know there either was or the possibility existed that the Vale would join their cause.

Maybe she didn't receive word until the day of.  Or maybe the show writers wanted to create tension in a losing battle with the closing twist of the Vale riders saving the day.  

Further explanation is needed, hoping Jon and Sansa flesh this out in the finally.  

[ummester]

On 21/06/2016 at 2:43 AM, RhaeBee said:

YES. SHE IS. Sansa is a b*tch. 

She has always been a bitch though - it's in character for her. She has just been very meek and passive about it.

[ummester]

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Well, I'm not convinced Sansa "wanted" or "planned" to betray Jon. But their lazy writing resulted in what I see as a petty, passive aggressive child, pretty much heartless to her actual allies, strategically dumb and selfish, and catching psychoathy like the flue by Ramsay's words and her smirk. I know that's not the impression of Sansa that d$d were gunning for most likely. But based on the writing of Sansa in S6, her behaviour, her actions and her words she's no empowered smart young woman to me. I'd put her in the corner or a time-out chair for acting like a brat.

Perhaps it's more than their writing and is their interpretation of the character? I didn't read Sansa quite as bitchy as D&D did but neither did I read her as some bastion of virtue like her reader fans do. She was always a bit of a bitch and life was cruel enough to scare her into being a bigger bitch - she isn't a mega bitch like Cersie but nor is she someone who tries to avoid all bitchiness like Brienne.

[Martin Rheaume]

4 hours ago, Rumy Stark said:

Actually other than pointing out that they didn't have enough people and should wait, the only thing Sansa asked Jon was that he not let Ramsay get in his head. She explained that Ramsay is a master of mind-games and straight up told Jon not to let him win that game. That is the one thing Jon didn't do, and it's why any military planning Jon and Davos did ended up not mattering. Ramsay played with Jon's head by killing Rickon as sadistically as possible, and Jon got caught in the trap and forgot who he was and what he was doing and went at Ramsay in a blind rage. While I doubt Jon et al could have won on their own, they certainly lost because Jon let Ramsay get to him and did exactly what Ramsay wanted. If Jon had listened to the one actual piece of advice Sansa gave him, it would have played out very differently. (I'm not counting The Vale's last minute win as Jon's, because it wasn't.)

 

I agree with all that. Jon screwed up in the battle when he let Ramsey into his head. He should have listened to her advice there, but it definitely doesn't excuse her for withholding pertinent information that would have changed everything. It's much more excusable to make a suicide charge after watching your brother get executed than it is to make a calculated decision to not inform Jon of the potential availability of the Knights of the Vale.

[sweetsunray]

3 minutes ago, ummester said:

Perhaps it's more than their writing and is their interpretation of the character? I didn't read Sansa quite as bitchy as D&D did but neither did I read her as some bastion of virtue like her reader fans do. She was always a bit of a bitch and life was cruel enough to scare her into being a bigger bitch - she isn't a mega bitch like Cersie but nor is she someone who tries to avoid all bitchiness like Brienne.

She certainly starts out as a brat, looking down on the North, Winterfell, some of her siblings. She makes high cost mistakes for selfish reasons. But the snow castle scene especially reveals she's identifying more and more with her Starkness. WF isn't that poor, all the way up North too far away from KL anymore. She likes the snow. She thinks it's pure, but equally wonders whether she still fits in it. She starts to remember her siblings - Jon and Arya in a fonder way. She's not imo a character who would care by herself about the lives of the common folk as Arya naturally does. But she's also learning to. So, while LF is teaching her to look at situations beyond her petty "he's being mean to me" reflex, or her petty "x is ruining things for me", she equally, if not more gets in touch with something of that purity of snow, North and Starkiness. It's one of the reasons I'm not a "Pawn to Player, mini-LF" proponent for Sansa's future arc.

[ummester]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

She certainly starts out as a brat, looking down on the North, Winterfell, some of her siblings. She makes high cost mistakes for selfish reasons. But the snow castle scene especially reveals she's identifying more and more with her Starkness. WF isn't that poor, all the way up North too far away from KL anymore. She likes the snow. She thinks it's pure, but equally wonders whether she still fits in it. She starts to remember her siblings - Jon and Arya in a fonder way. She's not imo a character who would care by herself about the lives of the common folk as Arya naturally does. But she's also learning to. So, while LF is teaching her to look at situations beyond her petty "he's being mean to me" reflex, or her petty "x is ruining things for me", she equally, if not more gets in touch with something of that purity of snow, North and Starkiness. It's one of the reasons I'm not a "Pawn to Player, mini-LF" proponent for Sansa's future arc.

Well sure - there is a duality to all the characters in this show. Sansa can be soft and delicate like snow but her emotions can also be cold.

Other than perhaps Ramsay - and even he had the but I was a bastard in a cruel world excuse - every single character has a flipside. The mountain has migraines, LF was so deeply wounded by love that he turned psychotic, Joffrey was the product of incest with a legal father that confessed he failed with the whole fatherhood thing.

I think what is important, is that as the story progresses, our sympathy is being subverted. Although the show is clumsy with it sometimes, it is still there. Cersie has never been as sympathetic as she is this season and Sansa has never been as cruel. LF has never made so many mistakes over love (Sansa) as he has started to make and Dany has never been as brazen a viscous conqueror.

[Cas Stark]

17 minutes ago, ummester said:

Well sure - there is a duality to all the characters in this show. Sansa can be soft and delicate like snow but her emotions can also be cold.

Other than perhaps Ramsay - and even he had the but I was a bastard in a cruel world excuse - every single character has a flipside. The mountain has migraines, LF was so deeply wounded by love that he turned psychotic, Joffrey was the product of incest with a legal father that confessed he failed with the whole fatherhood thing.

I think what is important, is that as the story progresses, our sympathy is being subverted. Although the show is clumsy with it sometimes, it is still there. Cersie has never been as sympathetic as she is this season and Sansa has never been as cruel. LF has never made so many mistakes over love (Sansa) as he has started to make and Dany has never been as brazen a viscous conqueror.

I wish I believed they were doing all of this on purpose.  But other than "Carol" Lannister, who they have absolutely made more sympathetic all along, I'm not sure the audience is supposed to see Sansa as cruel, I think the reaction is supposed to be "badass, she's taking control"...and the same with Dany, we're supposed to agree that torching slavers and mean Dothraki males is great and empowering. We're not supposed to see all of this insanity that LF has undertaken as mistakes, we're supposed to see him as the same master manipulator, only he's got a real soft spot for Sansa.   I would love to be wrong, but almost always what you see with the show is what you get, what they show you obviously is what they want in a reaction.

[Chib]

6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Well, I'm not convinced Sansa "wanted" or "planned" to betray Jon. But their lazy writing resulted in what I see as a petty, passive aggressive child, pretty much heartless to her actual allies, strategically dumb and selfish, and catching psychoathy like the flue by Ramsay's words and her smirk. I know that's not the impression of Sansa that d$d were gunning for most likely. But based on the writing of Sansa in S6, her behaviour, her actions and her words she's no empowered smart young woman to me. I'd put her in the corner or a time-out chair for acting like a brat.

 

thumb up thumb up. Horrible writing. 

[tallTale]

Was it fair that Sansa (and Jon) didn't try harder to bargain for rickon's life? He was a child, they should have sacrificed themselves for him. 

[OldGimletEye]

10 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I wish I believed they were doing all of this on purpose.  But other than "Carol" Lannister, who they have absolutely made more sympathetic all along, I'm not sure the audience is supposed to see Sansa as cruel, I think the reaction is supposed to be "badass, she's taking control"...and the same with Dany, we're supposed to agree that torching slavers and mean Dothraki males is great and empowering. We're not supposed to see all of this insanity that LF has undertaken as mistakes, we're supposed to see him as the same master manipulator, only he's got a real soft spot for Sansa.   I would love to be wrong, but almost always what you see with the show is what you get, what they show you obviously is what they want in a reaction.

 I agree, I think, that D & D's intention here is probably not to make Sansa look like the wicked witch of the west. But, the problem here is that their writing makes her come off that way. Her not telling Jon about the Vale Army makes her look bad. All that damn smirking makes her look bad. It's probably not D & D's intention. But, still it makes her look very bad.

It's kind of like, Brienne in episode 2 or whatever failing to tail Sansa the truth about Arya. D & D probably don't mean it to reflect badly on Brienne. But, it comes off that way because Brienne comes off as both dishonest and patronizing.

D & D are supposed to be professionals. So it's a problem when the viewer has to sit there and ponder their actual intentions because the writing doesn't seem to line up. The fact of the matter is that the intentions for the character ought to line up with the plot a bit more.

I know I'm supposed to see Sansa's actions as being "bad ass" or whatever, and I want Sansa to do well. But, the way she is going about some things, I have a real problem with. And I wish the writing would put a little more thought into these things.
 

[Chib]

7 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I wish I believed they were doing all of this on purpose.  But other than "Carol" Lannister, who they have absolutely made more sympathetic all along, I'm not sure the audience is supposed to see Sansa as cruel, I think the reaction is supposed to be "badass, she's taking control"...and the same with Dany, we're supposed to agree that torching slavers and mean Dothraki males is great and empowering. We're not supposed to see all of this insanity that LF has undertaken as mistakes, we're supposed to see him as the same master manipulator, only he's got a real soft spot for Sansa.   I would love to be wrong, but almost always what you see with the show is what you get, what they show you obviously is what they want in a reaction.

 

all of the male characters have been butchered so they can empower some main ladies in a forceful way. The result is that they're all become stupid. Show Jon was already much more stupid than Book Jon, but writers took away like 50% of his IQ after resurrecting him because "he needs a messy battle against Ramsay!!". Little Finger was the most cunning, but no, Sansa needs to suffer Ramsay for shock value so they turn LF into an idiot by selling her to the Bolton. And because Sansa needs a moment of empowering so the whole Jon and Wildings saga are turned into rats. Dany shouldn't have been unburnt forever as the book but this is the show, she needs to be invincible etc etc. and Tyrion becomes 70% dumber than he was. And let's not forget Euron! I am so baffled of all this! 

[DarkerStar]

6 minutes ago, tallTale said:

Was it fair that Sansa (and Jon) didn't try harder to bargain for rickon's life? He was a child, they should have sacrificed themselves for him. 

I saw a youtube video that hypothesized that Sansa could have used the Vale army during the negotiation to get Ramsey to surrender Winterfell and Rickon. You know had Sansa told Jon about the Vale and then they included the Vale in their strategy. Like a spare my brother and I'll spare your life offer.

[tallTale]

9 minutes ago, DarkerStar said:

I saw a youtube video that hypothesized that Sansa could have used the Vale army during the negotiation to get Ramsey to surrender Winterfell and Rickon. You know had Sansa told Jon about the Vale and then they included the Vale in their strategy. Like a spare my brother and I'll spare your life offer.

At least cat would have died for rickon. Sansa was all," I'm not going back!"

[Sansa's lemon cakes]

On 6/20/2016 at 9:18 AM, JonSnowed said:

I have to be honest Sansa is closely following Dany on my shit list both in the books and in the show. Both of them come across as dumb and annoying, Dany is safe until she arrives in Westeros but Sansa now has no plot armour from what I can tell, so hopefully she is killed off soon.

I hope that Sansa is NOT killed off. I don't even know why I opened this thread just to see hate like this. 

[UnViserion]

She was literally sitting right there the entire war council. If she had something to add (which she did-- the Vale army), she should have spoken up.