Sansa is obnoxious

[AryaSansa]

I think the obvious reason Sansa didn't tell Jon was that if she did, the show audience would know, and the writers wanted to keep it a surprise.

 

4 minutes ago, LordPathera said:

Nothing that excuses her for trusting Westeros' least-trustworthy backstabber who already betrayed her and her family on multiple occasions.

Little Finger is a good man adept at politics and pragmatism.  Sansa would not have known he betrayed her family.  Sansa would not have known that Little Finger didn't know that Ramsey could not be tamed by Roose Bolton.

I think it's just bad writing.  It's about what the audience knows, not about what the characters are able to know.

[OldGimletEye]

5 minutes ago, Sansa's lemon cakes said:

D&D do not know how to write her; I mean they went on about the "Women coming out on top" and it is so cringe-worthy. I just want good writing, not some contrite girl-power and poor writing. I do not blame Kit and Sophie for the material they were given. 

That's the truth. And it's really the root source of the problem here.

[wolverine]

Also, we don't know the extent of Sansa's communication with LF and the Vale army.  I think we could maybe hold some judgement until we know more.  Maybe all she did was send a raven and never even heard a response?  Assumed her rebuff made them head for home?

 

Still, seemed pretty stupid not to at least trust Jon with the potential support.

[Sansa's lemon cakes]

7 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

There has always been a hardcore base that hates Sansa both book and show. I'm not one of them. In fact ASOIAF Sansa is one of my favorites.

Episode 9,however, certainly gave them something to complain about. And the fact of the matter is they are not wrong here. That is unfortunate. But, the criticisms are not invalid.

Her not telling Jon about the Vale forces was wrong. Her complaining that Jon didn't ask for her advice while at the same time withholding information from him was hypocritical on her part.

And then there were those goddamned smirks. During the battle she sits there and smirks while that butchery was going on. This not meant to be some kind of anti-war, kumbaya, peace, unicorns and rainbows sort of spiel here. Fact is that Ramsay needed to go. And Sansa had every right to hate him .There is no doubt about that. That said, what she was watching there was butchery. That wasn't anything to smirk about, no matter how clever she might have thought she was in that situation. It was pretty off putting, and when I saw it, I felt like, I wish one of my old DI's would have made a guest appearance and told her to wipe that goddamned smirk off her face. It was immature and undignified.

I want to like show!Sansa. But, if they keep writing her like they did in episode 9 it's going to be harder and harder for me to like her. I really hope her show characterization improves. I believe her book character will be different.

And just not to sound like a bitter Jon fanboy, yes Jon acted like an idiot here to. He should have gotten his ass back to his own lines after Rickon was dead. So Jon fucked up. But, Jon comes off here mostly as a well meaning idiot that wouldn't betray Sansa and is doing his best to do right by her and not trying to play some kind of "I have a secret" game with Sansa and doesn't seem to have some kind weird trust issues.
 

D&D did a disservice to her and to Jon, and to everyone. They are trying to make show!Sansa bad ass when she is not supposed to be that way at all. If anything it is frustrating since that is not the Sansa we know and love. I was frustrated with Sansa too, since I know that she is capable of better, as is Jon. I want her characterization to improve as well. Also, Jon deserves better. Sadly, D&D just go with what they think makes good television when it is just cringe-worthy. 

[Sansa's lemon cakes]

3 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

That's the truth. And it's really the root source of the problem here.

Also, with Cogman added into the mix a lot of the characters come off as bipiolar and erratic. There is no consistency in characterization even with all the talented actors and actresses they really do not grasp the concept of continuity consistence and respecting the cast members. I am sure when she show is through with that people will come forward and express their discontent over it. Sansa's battlefield smirk put me off too, I mean she is not Petyr. I know that she has always emulated the people around her trying to fit in but to genuinely find that smirk worthy is not within Sansa's nature. It is as if there is a pandemic in Westeros if a multiple personality disorder. 

[Sansa's lemon cakes]

10 minutes ago, wolverine said:

Also, we don't know the extent of Sansa's communication with LF and the Vale army.  I think we could maybe hold some judgement until we know more.  Maybe all she did was send a raven and never even heard a response?  Assumed her rebuff made them head for home?

 

Still, seemed pretty stupid not to at least trust Jon with the potential support.

To be honest I do not think that she got a response, or if she did she wanted to see it to believe it if Littlefinger was going to keep his word or not. It's sad that she didn't trust Jon but it is realistic that she has trust issues after all the abuse and manipulation she's been through but now she and Jon need each other and hopefully won't withhold vital information from one another. 

[OldGimletEye]

12 minutes ago, Sansa's lemon cakes said:

D&D did a disservice to her and to Jon, and to everyone. They are trying to make show!Sansa bad ass when she is not supposed to be that way at all. If anything it is frustrating since that is not the Sansa we know and love. I was frustrated with Sansa too, since I know that she is capable of better, as is Jon. I want her characterization to improve as well. Also, Jon deserves better. Sadly, D&D just go with what they think makes good television when it is just cringe-worthy. 

 

2 minutes ago, Sansa's lemon cakes said:

Also, with Cogman added into the mix a lot of the characters come off as bipiolar and erratic. There is no consistency in characterization even with all the talented actors and actresses they really do not grasp the concept of continuity consistence and respecting the cast members. I am sure when she show is through with that people will come forward and express their discontent over it. Sansa's battlefield smirk put me off too, I mean she is not Petyr. I know that she has always emulated the people around her trying to fit in but to genuinely find that smirk worthy is not within Sansa's nature. It is as if there is a pandemic in Westeros if a multiple personality disorder. 

Yeah, I think were pretty much on the same page here.

I've always had sympathy for Jaime fans.

But, I feel like after watching this episode, I truly understand what it's like to be a Jaime fan. That's how bad I think her characterization was this episode. I mean it just seemed really really off. Even more than usual, which has often been bad. But, not like this.

The truth is that I like Jon and Sansa both, but am more partial to Sansa. So when they mess up her character it just really annoys the shit out of me. Even more when they get other characters wrong.
 

[Sansa's lemon cakes]

2 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

 

Yeah, I think were pretty much on the same page here.

I've always had sympathy for Jaime fans.

But, I feel like after watching this episode, I truly understand what it's like to be a Jaime fan. That's how bad I think her characterization was this episode. I mean it just seemed really really off. Even more than usual, which has often been bad. But, not like this.

The truth is that I like Jon and Sansa both, but am more partial to Sansa. So when they mess up her character it just really annoys the shit out of me. Even more when they get other characters wrong.
 

Oh yeah, poor Jaime. D&D did a number on Stannis too. I can totally empathize with his fans. D&D basically demonized him to vendetta level. It is as if Jaime and Sansa both regressed personality wise; but I guess in D&D's world it depends on which voices in the head the characters are listening to that particular day while D&D and chuckle to themselves thinking that they wrote good TV. I get that trauma can affect people but it is like their personalities shift completely. I am sure that this show is a treat for a psychologist to do a meta on. It annoys me really. I am more so annoyed for Sophie, Nikolaj and other actors and actresses who see a character they are passionate about playing be so inconsistent. 

[JGP]

5 minutes ago, Sansa's lemon cakes said:

There is no consistency in characterization even with all the talented actors and actresses they really do not grasp the concept of continuity consistence and respecting the cast members.

I'm with you almost a hundred percent on your points, and as a corollary to what I've quoted above truly believe it would benefit the cast immensely to have read the books [some state they haven't] or at least refresh themselves if necessary on their character and motivations throughout the series. Then maybe say Sophie could've been all, "Hey now, Sansa wouldn't do this, or not like this anyway. Nope." 

I grew to love her in the books, it wasn't initial, yet, while DnD may be well meaning hacks-- at the point this particular juggernaut is at they'd have no recourse but to bow to a character [and actress] as embedded as Sansa is in GoT. 

And it would be a win/win. For the fans and for the series. 

 

[Sansa's lemon cakes]

1 minute ago, JEORDHl said:

I'm with you almost a hundred percent on your points, and as a corollary to what I've quoted above truly believe it would benefit the cast immensely to have read the books [some state they haven't] or at least refresh themselves if necessary on their character and motivations throughout the series. Then maybe say Sophie could've been all, "Hey now, Sansa wouldn't do this, or not like this anyway. Nope." 

I grew to love her in the books, it wasn't initial, yet, while DnD may be well meaning hacks-- at the point this particular juggernaut is at they'd have no recourse but to bow to a character [and actress] as embedded as Sansa is in GoT. 

And it would be a win/win. For the fans and for the series. 

 

Indeed. 

I mean, a good part of the actors and actresses said they read the books but I doubt they read anything beyond their characters chapters. I take Aidan Gillen's words for example that he read them as his acting is impeccable as Petyr. Though it did not stop D&D from making him clueless that Ramsay Bolton was a serial torturer. It's like, yeah Petyr would have known about that in the books, especially with the whole Jeyne Poole ordeal. But D&D bastardized Jeyne's plot into Sansa's and then decided I guess to give her Lady Stoneheart's personality now? I am not sure which side of the bed Sansa had woken up on before this episode but it was jarring. They made it clear that they hate the books and have some sort of grudge against GRRM, it seems. I think that a lot of the cast members feel that if they brought up flaws in characterization to D&D they'd get killed off. I mean, I just think about Barristan Selmy from last season and how that all panned out. 

[UnViserion]

1 hour ago, Terekhov said:

It really does seem like the "not enough men" thing was probing Jon to see if she thought he'd listen / be reasonable enough.

See I took it an entirely different way. I figured Sansa just wanted more men around for possible sexual dalliances. I have been wrong before tho

[JGP]

14 minutes ago, Sansa's lemon cakes said:

Indeed. 

I mean, a good part of the actors and actresses said they read the books but I doubt they read anything beyond their characters chapters. I take Aidan Gillen's words for example that he read them as his acting is impeccable as Petyr. Though it did not stop D&D from making him clueless that Ramsay Bolton was a serial torturer. It's like, yeah Petyr would have known about that in the books, especially with the whole Jeyne Poole ordeal. But D&D bastardized Jeyne's plot into Sansa's and then decided I guess to give her Lady Stoneheart's personality now? I am not sure which side of the bed Sansa had woken up on before this episode but it was jarring. They made it clear that they hate the books and have some sort of grudge against GRRM, it seems. I think that a lot of the cast members feel that if they brought up flaws in characterization to D&D they'd get killed off. I mean, I just think about Barristan Selmy from last season and how that all panned out. 

All pretty much true. The Selmy demise was unfortunate. However, the courage her part showed in facing down Joffrey beneath the specter of her father's spiked head, daring him to attempt the same with rebellious Rob by boldly speculating that perhaps her brother would present Joffrey's to her instead... couple that character [and craft] with the progression of her arc from then to S6, and I'd submit that it isn't a fear that Sophie should think she's subject to.

DnD would have to bend, and while it may be galling for them a little magic would come back and perhaps also help them get back on point as writers who understand these characters.

[LordPathera]

49 minutes ago, Sansa's lemon cakes said:

I am definitely not going to give an answer to someone who told me to shut up. This thread is incorrigible. 

The writers are the incorrigible ones and the brainless defenders of bad writing are the incorrigible ones. (You're not one of them from what I can see)

The "Shut up" was me putting my foot down against a terrible non-argument that people have brought up to defend the indefensible far too many times and too often, people gobble that nonsense up. My response was on how that terrible non-argument "flawed and human" never works as a defense against criticism and how it doesn't work to excuse Sansa's actions.

Personally attacking you was not my intention Sansa's lemon cake, I don't bother with mud-slinging. However I won't apologize if my post put you off. I'm satisfied as long as you understood my point. 

Hard Truths cut both ways my friend.

[NutBurz]

Neither Jaime nor Sansa are inconsistent.

 

 

[gotviewer]

51 minutes ago, Sansa's lemon cakes said:

I think that a lot of the cast members feel that if they brought up flaws in characterization to D&D they'd get killed off. I mean, I just think about Barristan Selmy from last season and how that all panned out. 

Agreed.  I think telling a writer to rewrite a scene is the kiss of death for an actor, in this role and the next.  Plus, Sophie Turner was included the last 2 seasons by playing Jeyne Poole's role.  Presumably, they could have gotten someone else.  

I do think that book Sansa would be more reserved and respectful? perhaps shed a silent tear, bowed head and closed eyes for at least a moment while quietly watching the carnage.  She has a kind heart and would be beating herself up about being stupid and marrying Ramsey and setting the chain of events into process.  I also think that if she was going to kill Ramsey the power leader move would be to do so like the series has shown Robb or Jon do---behead him bc he is a noble or hang him like a criminal.  The dogs were for TV, gruesome and fear mongering.    Also, now that she has had her victory I am expecting her to die.  

[UnViserion]

35 minutes ago, NutBurz said:

Neither Jaime nor Sansa are inconsistent.

This is correct in that they are both so consistently inconsistent..

Jaime: starts on a redemption arc that parallels the books, then goes back to full-blown Cersei whitewashing and obsession. Either doesn't know or doesn't care that she slept with Lancel. If it's the former, he's completely braindead. "Cersei had to walk naked through Kings Landing?? What was her crime?" if it's the latter, he's a total wuss. 

Sansa-- holy shit Sansa where to begin. First we get the season 4 ending where she dons her Darth Sansa apparel and is supposed to become a player and gain some agency. This arc ends with her being bent over her fathers bed by Ramsay. Then she gets reunited with the only family she knows to exist and lies to him within the fortnight. Doesn't even react to Rickon's dead body, only cares to exact her vengeance on Ramsay. 

These two are all over the place. . 

[Lord Freddy Blackfyre]

Let me tell you this about Rickon. When Lady Bolton withheld the Vale army information she killed Rickon. The most probably outcome if Ramsey would have known that a bigger army was about to defeat him he wouldn't  come out of Winterfell and have use Rickon as a negotiation card. 

Just like she did in King's Landing, Sansa's hands has as much blood of Ned and Rickon as Joffrey and Ramsey ever had.

[SerMixalot]

If the writers have the courage and ability to make Sansa a villain moving on, it could work.  She can be motivated by the trauma she has experienced, wanting to secure a birthright that protects her making her willing to do anything (including sacrificing Jon and Rickon).  that would be interesting, surprising and original.  I doubt the writers have the ability to make it work though

[bent branch]

I'm watching episode 5 and I noticed that Littlefinger makes the point to Sansa that the Vale army will be Sansa's army, not Jon's. That is why she doesn't tell Jon about the Vale army.

[yakisikli123]

She didnt like Davos and the wildlings and also Jon as a commander.

Vale army = her army, LF tactician and she herself commander.

Maybe (or maybe not) she didnt want Rickon and Jon dead, but she wasnt concerned about them either.