Jon Snow complete injustice

[Makk]

11 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

This is the Jon snow who in the book decided to march south after reading the pink letter yeah? A stupid decision that got him killed. 

Jon is someone who considers himself a hero, who is still emotional and a little irrational. Also who knows what effect dying has had on his character.

Just because you love Jon Snow doesn't mean he's anything like a tactical genius.

In the books he isn't perfect, but then no one is. I need to point out it wasn't a completely irrational response to reading the red letter. Yes it did strike him where he was weakest with his (brotherly) love for Arya, and yes it did make him want to smash the Boltons even though he knew he shouldn't. But he sat down with Tormund for hours discussing how much of it was true and planned what they would do. He figured out how to gain the loyalty of the wildlings at the meeting which he did. His decision to go south was more considered than most people credit it.

[Lord_Ravenstone]

11 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

This is the Jon snow who in the book decided to march south after reading the pink letter yeah? A stupid decision that got him killed. 

Jon is someone who considers himself a hero, who is still emotional and a little irrational. Also who knows what effect dying has had on his character.

Just because you love Jon Snow doesn't mean he's anything like a tactical genius.

That has nothing to do with tactics because he was trying to bind the Wildlings to him. 

We don't know what his strategy was but he was banking on using Melisandre 

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

7 hours ago, Greymoon said:

? In the books, Jon does not consider himself a hero and he only acts irrational when his family is threathened.

The truth is that Jon has a tactical mind (he helped make Stannis's battle plans...he had some great idea for the defence of the wall ect.) and that he is quite good at negotiation (Alys's marriage, the wildling "Blood price", the fact he manages to convince the heads of the some mountain clans to "accept" the wildlings south of the wall....the deal he makes with the Iron Bank ect...) and he's good at planning ahead (sending Sam away to train as maester, gathering wildling valuables to trade in Braavos, getting a loan to buy more food ect.)

....even if, and that is something we must admit, - for all of his great planning, he forgets the most essential of all...a thing called "communication".

The show did butcher his character, as it did many others.  It's a shame because the costumes, the decor and the shots are quite beautiful.

 

Thank you man. I just don't understand the hate? Heis extremely resourceful and "takes the high ground" and impresses qhorin/Jeor/Stannis/everyone who has listened to his opinions.

I see Ned Stark with the capability/awareness to use someone like Robb's flair and Jon is also very resourceful 

Yes I'm a fan boy 

Yes Jon can draw up one hell of a battle plan (somebody has to fight those zombies) 

[blckp]

he is moron, no doubt

[Lord Friendzone]

20 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

People act irrationally when emotional.

Sadly they do. Emotions got better of him and Sansa warned him.

 

20 hours ago, Winter's Cold said:

He's not a tactical genius but after being warned not to do it in a previous scene then charging forward towards Ramsay in a fit of rage anyway is nonsensical. 

Remember this is also the guy that's supposed to lead the North against the White Walkers. 

Someone has to. He was emotional, reckless but still he knows about them more than anyone. Well except Tormund and widlings.

[Lord Friendzone]

2 hours ago, blckp said:

he is moron, no doubt

And yet you want him with Dany and to serve her pleasure. I guess then he's not a moron anymore or less of it.

[Greymoon]

3 hours ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

Thank you man. I just don't understand the hate? Heis extremely resourceful and "takes the high ground" and impresses qhorin/Jeor/Stannis/everyone who has listened to his opinions.

I see Ned Stark with the capability/awareness to use someone like Robb's flair and Jon is also very resourceful 

Yes I'm a fan boy 

Yes Jon can draw up one hell of a battle plan (somebody has to fight those zombies) 

Jon is my favorite character as well - and I do not recognize him in the show. I realized, re-reading a chapter from Dance yesterday (the one where Jon helps Stannis out, and explains to him the politics of the north) that not only is show Jon following Stannis's arc (sort of, minus the storm), but Jon's own arc and knowledge has been given to Davos and Sansa. Since when is Davos an expert in northern politics?

(before leaving the wall, Jon's arc was, in parts, given to Samwell Tarly. Making Jon look incompetent and passive in his role as lord Commander....!)

BookJon knows the Umbers well. He knows the mountain clans. He knows (roughly) how many men each house has, since he indicates that Stannis could gain 2000 to 3000 men by going to the mountain clans. He knows that Stannis's army can't march on the Dreadfort without being seen and suggest a better course of action.... Stannis even takes the time to write Jon to tell him that his plan worked out better than Stannis himself had expected.

Jon knows the north...so why did they make him so stupid in the show? Where has his skill in negotiation gone? This is the guy who knows and uses all the proper courtesies to speak to Queen Selyse and Stannis's southern lords...he's the guy who gets along with Tormund Giantsbane, Dolorous Edd, Samwell Tarly, Alys Karstark...Val!...people that couldn't be anymore different if they tried.

In the show, that same guy is intimidated by a ten year old girl? Do northerners, generally speaking, not dislike courtesies and "flowery speeches"? How does Jon forget that about his own kinsmen?

(Not to mention that BookJon had a great relationship with Arya and Bran. You'd think he gets along with kids.)

As for Jon/Ned comparision.... imo, Jon is the epitome of pragmatic, thus he doesn't value honor as highly as Ned...or Robb.

[blckp]

16 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

And yet you want him with Dany and to serve her pleasure. I guess then he's not a moron anymore or less of it.

i think all starks moron, they kinda dumb

[Winter's Cold]

15 minutes ago, Greymoon said:

Jon is my favorite character as well - and I do not recognize him in the show. I realized, re-reading a chapter from Dance yesterday (the one where Jon helps Stannis out, and explains to him the politics of the north) that not only is show Jon following Stannis's arc (sort of, minus the storm), but Jon's own arc and knowledge has been given to Davos and Sansa. Since when is Davos an expert in northern politics?

(before leaving the wall, Jon's arc was, in parts, given to Samwell Tarly. Making Jon look incompetent and passive in his role as lord Commander....!)

BookJon knows the Umbers well. He knows the mountain clans. He knows (roughly) how many men each house has, since he indicates that Stannis could gain 2000 to 3000 men by going to the mountain clans. He knows that Stannis's army can't march on the Dreadfort without being seen and suggest a better course of action.... Stannis even takes the time to write Jon to tell him that his plan worked out better than Stannis himself had expected.

Jon knows the north...so why did they make him so stupid in the show? Where has his skill in negotiation gone? This is the guy who knows and uses all the proper courtesies to speak to Queen Selyse and Stannis's southern lords...he's the guy who gets along with Tormund Giantsbane, Dolorous Edd, Samwell Tarly, Alys Karstark...Val!...people that couldn't be anymore different if they tried.

In the show, that same guy is intimidated by a ten year old girl? Do northerners, generally speaking, not dislike courtesies and "flowery speeches"? How does Jon forget that about his own kinsmen?

(Not to mention that BookJon had a great relationship with Arya and Bran. You'd think he gets along with kids.)

As for Jon/Ned comparision.... imo, Jon is the epitome of pragmatic, thus he doesn't value honor as highly as Ned...or Robb.

Well Littlefinger won't get to save the day if Jon is made to look competent so D&D needed to dumb him down. Now's he's nothing more than a good warrior.

[plastic throne]

33 minutes ago, Greymoon said:

Jon is my favorite character as well - and I do not recognize him in the show. I realized, re-reading a chapter from Dance yesterday (the one where Jon helps Stannis out, and explains to him the politics of the north) that not only is show Jon following Stannis's arc (sort of, minus the storm), but Jon's own arc and knowledge has been given to Davos and Sansa. Since when is Davos an expert in northern politics?

(before leaving the wall, Jon's arc was, in parts, given to Samwell Tarly. Making Jon look incompetent and passive in his role as lord Commander....!)

BookJon knows the Umbers well. He knows the mountain clans. He knows (roughly) how many men each house has, since he indicates that Stannis could gain 2000 to 3000 men by going to the mountain clans. He knows that Stannis's army can't march on the Dreadfort without being seen and suggest a better course of action.... Stannis even takes the time to write Jon to tell him that his plan worked out better than Stannis himself had expected.

Jon knows the north...so why did they make him so stupid in the show? Where has his skill in negotiation gone? This is the guy who knows and uses all the proper courtesies to speak to Queen Selyse and Stannis's southern lords...he's the guy who gets along with Tormund Giantsbane, Dolorous Edd, Samwell Tarly, Alys Karstark...Val!...people that couldn't be anymore different if they tried.

In the show, that same guy is intimidated by a ten year old girl? Do northerners, generally speaking, not dislike courtesies and "flowery speeches"? How does Jon forget that about his own kinsmen?

(Not to mention that BookJon had a great relationship with Arya and Bran. You'd think he gets along with kids.)

As for Jon/Ned comparision.... imo, Jon is the epitome of pragmatic, thus he doesn't value honor as highly as Ned...or Robb.

 

I wanted to have a say in this thread but you put it up so nicely, with arguments. I agree wholeheartedly and it is a real bummer we were robbed of this character. Was I sure we'll get the books (right to the end) I'd say fuck it and stop watching the show.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

50 minutes ago, Greymoon said:

Jon is my favorite character as well - and I do not recognize him in the show. I realized, re-reading a chapter from Dance yesterday (the one where Jon helps Stannis out, and explains to him the politics of the north) that not only is show Jon following Stannis's arc (sort of, minus the storm), but Jon's own arc and knowledge has been given to Davos and Sansa. Since when is Davos an expert in northern politics?

(before leaving the wall, Jon's arc was, in parts, given to Samwell Tarly. Making Jon look incompetent and passive in his role as lord Commander....!)

BookJon knows the Umbers well. He knows the mountain clans. He knows (roughly) how many men each house has, since he indicates that Stannis could gain 2000 to 3000 men by going to the mountain clans. He knows that Stannis's army can't march on the Dreadfort without being seen and suggest a better course of action.... Stannis even takes the time to write Jon to tell him that his plan worked out better than Stannis himself had expected.

Jon knows the north...so why did they make him so stupid in the show? Where has his skill in negotiation gone? This is the guy who knows and uses all the proper courtesies to speak to Queen Selyse and Stannis's southern lords...he's the guy who gets along with Tormund Giantsbane, Dolorous Edd, Samwell Tarly, Alys Karstark...Val!...people that couldn't be anymore different if they tried.

In the show, that same guy is intimidated by a ten year old girl? Do northerners, generally speaking, not dislike courtesies and "flowery speeches"? How does Jon forget that about his own kinsmen?

(Not to mention that BookJon had a great relationship with Arya and Bran. You'd think he gets along with kids.)

As for Jon/Ned comparision.... imo, Jon is the epitome of pragmatic, thus he doesn't value honor as highly as Ned...or Robb.

I disagree. Its hard to watch season 5 of Jons arc and come to that conclusion. Especially as most people last year were going crazy about what superhero Jon was being made out to be. 

[TwiceBorn]

It's time to finally realize that GoT is killing AsoIaF.

In the books, characters evolve. In the show: Arya, Sansa, Jaime, Tyrion or Jon stay the same or go back where they were, repeating same mistakes and repeatedly giving the viewer this eerie feeling: "WTF was that about?".

[BalerionTheCat]

10 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I disagree. Its hard to watch season 5 of Jons arc and come to that conclusion. Especially as most people last year were going crazy about what superhero Jon was being made out to be. 

That was his point. I 100% agree with Greymoon
Book Jon is everything you expect from TPTWP. While Show Jon is the last moron you want to follow in a big battle.

[illinifan]

I like flawed Jon better than a Marty Stu character.  Yes, Jon has leadership qualities but he also is emotional and lets his emotions get the best of him.  Also even aged up TVJon is still very young - in his early 20s.  The only reason why he was elected LC is because the more experienced men in the NW are dead or missing.  He is a very junior officer thrust into a senior role that he is not prepared for and who messes it up.  

Additionally, Jon is suffering from PTSD after getting murdered by his own men and just snaps when he sees Rickon dies.  It is an understandable reaction based in his character even if it is not the most knowledgeable.  

The good thing about both the books and show is they portray both Dany and Jon as very flawed leaders.  Both have lots of growing to do.  Dany listens to Tyrion in the finale rather than relying on her initial instincts.  I believe that Jon has a chance in the finale.  

Spoiler

I suspect he and Sansa outplay LF.

I also think that how Jon reacts to learning about his mother may show growth.  Season 1 Jon would have pouted about it.  Does Season 6/7 Jon have the maturity to forgive Ned and understand why he lied?

[JonSnow4President]

3 hours ago, illinifan said:

I like flawed Jon better than a Marty Stu character.  Yes, Jon has leadership qualities but he also is emotional and lets his emotions get the best of him.  Also even aged up TVJon is still very young - in his early 20s.  The only reason why he was elected LC is because the more experienced men in the NW are dead or missing.  He is a very junior officer thrust into a senior role that he is not prepared for and who messes it up.  

Additionally, Jon is suffering from PTSD after getting murdered by his own men and just snaps when he sees Rickon dies.  It is an understandable reaction based in his character even if it is not the most knowledgeable.  

The good thing about both the books and show is they portray both Dany and Jon as very flawed leaders.  Both have lots of growing to do.  Dany listens to Tyrion in the finale rather than relying on her initial instincts.  I believe that Jon has a chance in the finale.  

  Reveal hidden contents

I suspect he and Sansa outplay LF.

I also think that how Jon reacts to learning about his mother may show growth.  Season 1 Jon would have pouted about it.  Does Season 6/7 Jon have the maturity to forgive Ned and understand why he lied?

He picks up Ser Alester by the throat in a fit of rage, brutally beats down Iron Emmet while dealing with the injustice of his bastardy inside his head, runs off from the Night's Watch when he finds out Rob is riding out to war.  How do you not get emotional from that?  Jon being emotional are one of my smallest problems with the episode (and only the charge after Rickon's death.  I am fine with running out to try to retrieve his brother).  

And Gary Stu?  The man gets stabbed in the back because he doesn't get political buy in from some of his officers for fucks sake. 

[Arya_Stormborn]

On 6/20/2016 at 1:55 PM, Ser Gareth said:

Shades of the Pink Letter I'd say!

Yes, that's a good parallel.

[Arya_Stormborn]

If Jon is really such a horrible strategist, that begs the question of WHY. Robb was a brilliant strategist, winning every battle (until he got himself killed). They were raised by the same father. I think all of the Starks are meant to be viewed as highly intelligent and capable, but with a bent towards heroism as their Achilles' heel.

[Kusanagi]

23 minutes ago, Arya_Stormborn said:

If Jon is really such a horrible strategist, that begs the question of WHY. Robb was a brilliant strategist, winning every battle (until he got himself killed). They were raised by the same father. I think all of the Starks are meant to be viewed as highly intelligent and capable, but with a bent towards heroism as their Achilles' heel.

The problem is that Jon Snow (book) is shown to be competent in both strategy and tactics, what he lacks is the loyalty of the Watch, which is made up of mostly criminals, rapists, old racists, and so on. The Watch didn't kill him just because of him try to lead them down South; they have plenty of issues with him with how he shelters the wildings and incorporating them into the Watch's ranks, which are good strategic decisions by themselves, but not politically correct among the Watch.

I don't know what happen to the Show Jon Show, maybe the writers take "he knows nothing" too literally.

[Wilnova]

1 hour ago, Kusanagi said:

I don't know what happen to the Show Jon Show, maybe the writers take "he knows nothing" too literally.

What happened to show Jon was Sansa. The writers wanted to give her a good arc after they got backlash from the internet over her season 5 story. Jon had to be an idiot so that Sansa could become a player of the game and know better about everything. Plus, hype man Davos needed something to do as well since they nixed the whole Rickon story on the show. And they had to get LF North because that's where Sansa is. So Jon had to lose the battle. It's like show Jaime being a different character because show Cersei is different. Plot/story changes tend to change the characters significantly from their book versions. Jon was okay till season 5 as they were closely following his book story. Once Sansa/Davos got there, things were different.

Consequently, while I do find show Jon to be incompetent and boring (I like him in the books), I find show Sansa to be more interesting and entertaining on the show as opposed to the books. I usually skip the Sansa chapters in the books on re-reads but she's a more compelling character on the show.

It's clear from their writing and interviews that David and Dan like the characters of Cersei and Sansa and like their actors. So we get more focus and writing (Good or bad) for them as opposed to Jaime and Jon. Sansa gets to confront LF about her rape. She gets to feed Ramsay to his dogs. We got more Sansa scenes at the wall than Jon scenes. Jon was more or less a secondary character in his own story.

At the end of the day, the show is just a 10 hr adaptation with a limited budget. Even Dany has lost a lot of the depth and characterization her book version had. Now she is just walking around giving bad-ass speeches. I do like that characters like Cersei and Sansa have more to do as opposed to in the books where Cersei was a cackling 1D villain and Sansa spend her time feeding SR his dinner.

IMO, Sansa had one of the best character arcs this season.

[Arya_Stormborn]

55 minutes ago, Wilnova said:

What happened to show Jon was Sansa. The writers wanted to give her a good arc after they got backlash from the internet over her season 5 story. Jon had to be an idiot so that Sansa could become a player of the game and know better about everything. Plus, hype man Davos needed something to do as well since they nixed the whole Rickon story on the show. And they had to get LF North because that's where Sansa is. So Jon had to lose the battle. It's like show Jaime being a different character because show Cersei is different. Plot/story changes tend to change the characters significantly from their book versions. Jon was okay till season 5 as they were closely following his book story. Once Sansa/Davos got there, things were different.

Consequently, while I do find show Jon to be incompetent and boring (I like him in the books), I find show Sansa to be more interesting and entertaining on the show as opposed to the books. I usually skip the Sansa chapters in the books on re-reads but she's a more compelling character on the show.

It's clear from their writing and interviews that David and Dan like the characters of Cersei and Sansa and like their actors. So we get more focus and writing (Good or bad) for them as opposed to Jaime and Jon. Sansa gets to confront LF about her rape. She gets to feed Ramsay to his dogs. We got more Sansa scenes at the wall than Jon scenes. Jon was more or less a secondary character in his own story.

At the end of the day, the show is just a 10 hr adaptation with a limited budget. Even Dany has lost a lot of the depth and characterization her book version had. Now she is just walking around giving bad-ass speeches. I do like that characters like Cersei and Sansa have more to do as opposed to in the books where Cersei was a cackling 1D villain and Sansa spend her time feeding SR his dinner.

IMO, Sansa had one of the best character arcs this season.

Yes, I agree that Show Sansa is better than Book Sansa, but I get the feeling that Book Sansa is going to be doing a lot in TWOW. She can't just sit around the Vale forever.