Is Val Important

[bemused]

Oh, one of my favourite topics! I can't resist..

 
Of course she's important (I think vitally so) - and thanks "Braggiest" Leech, for linking to my old thread.. (I'm so encouraged by your scoop from Balticon). 

As you can see that old thread is now 4 yrs. old and I'd been puzzling over Val for a while before starting it. More interesting hints and clues have come to light over time. So many good points have been made in this thread already, I'll just add some and give some points of difference.

1. I don't think Val is a healer, except as anyone might know general home remedies and first aid. She doesn't expect to deliver Dalla's baby, but wants to go find the midwife. She's firm, but pretty non-specific in what she tells Jon about greyscale, but tells him to go ask a woods witch. If she had details to give him, I think she would have. She's just made considerable headway in gaining a familiarity with Jon. She's told him that she can do more to help him. Their difference over Shireen seems to bring that progress to a halt (temporarily). She obviously views Shireen as a genuine threat and is being honest with Jon about the way the disease behaves north of the wall.
... Cold preserves ... greyscale thrives in damp conditions... and when have the maesters taken what goes on north of the wall very seriously (even when reported by one of their own)?

I think readers are wrong to judge Val harshly on greyscale.

2. I think she is a seeress, and as such could have an important role to play going forward. She's probably someone who keeps the old religion's traditions and rituals to propitiate the old gods (as the First men believe in them). Her person seems to be protected and her word carries weight. If there's a hero prophecy among the Free Folk, she's likely to know it. But, I don't think she's necessarily been south of the wall. (She and Dalla are not said to be spearwives or raiders.) Her use of language may be due to possessing some higher learning (like the Druids, or their Norse equivalents), and without written language, precise use of language is of utmost importance. 

 Speaking of precision, GRRM's own use of language is often extremely precise. When Jon guesses that Mance may have left the NW for Dalla, Mance says.. "My lady is blameless. I met her on my return from your father's castle..." 
To me, "on my return" rather than "as I was returning" means after he got back. (Curiously, Mance never mentions "stealing" Dalla, simply that he "met' her - and no mention of Val at that point.) It's possible that their relationship didn't begin as a love affair. .. It's possible, if not probable,  that he and Dalla were alone at their meeting. Just as Val "knew where she must go" to find Tormund, Dalla may have "known" where to find Mance. She may have offered to help him in his efforts, as Val now offers to help Jon.

After the pink letter, Jon wants to see if Mel can locate Ramsay for him. It will be satisfying to me if it turns out there is a more accurate "Locator" at hand. Val may have excellent tracking skills, but she knew where to find Tormund before she set out.

Regarding Mance, Val and Tormund, I'm not sure Mance and Val would have had a chance to communicate directly. It's possible, but we've seen no direct hint of it. Yet, we know a man who has scaled the wall "half a hundred times" could , no doubt, scale the King's Tower in the dead of night for a conversation ... but it would be risky.(Much more difficult than to climb in Jon's window..  ) It's also possible that Stannis might have allowed a visit or two between them after Mance had been glamoured. OTOH, Val may be able to detect a glamour, or she might just be able to figure it out in other ways .. Failing all of that, it seems very likely that Jon would have allowed Rattleshirt/Mance to see his son (and Val) once it was up to Jon.

It seems possible that the idea of sending Val out alone might have originated with Mance... Jon doesn't seem completely sure of her safety.

If Val is a seer, she may have had a better idea of where Mance could find "Arya" than Mel did.
All of these are still outstanding questions.

But here's the thing - even if Mance, Val and Tormund are all acting in concert, I don't think they're acting against Jon. I think Mance, like any good king, had given some thought to his succession. The Free Folk don't have father to son succession, yet any king facing battle knows he may fall. What happens then? With the Free Folk, it has been disintegration back into any number of competing tribes or villages, and they may not have another leader who can rise to King for years or even generations.

Fortunately, Mance had grown to manhood on the Wall, and knows about LCs grooming young men for leadership. ...Yes, they still have to be elected, but they're fit for the job, and men will notice that. It's a good step in the right direction. .... Mance was King, Dalla was his lady, wise woman and true queen. (All straight from Mance's mouth.) Jarl and Val seem to have been being groomed for eventual succession. 

Jarl was Val's pet and Mance's, but the Wall killed Jarl. When Val asks if Jon killed Jarl (even though she heard it was the Wall) she may be sensing the magical connection between Jon and the Wall.

Val has been quietly sizing Jon up since ASoS, and so has Mance.

Mance knows he could not go back to being the wildling King, though many might still respect him in the way that the other wildling leaders are respected.
He knows his plans for the Free Folk failed - because of Jon and Stannis. Jon's plans, OTOH, got them through the wall by negotiation - no kneeling, no renouncing their gods, no having to fight and die against every clan leader and lord in the north just to exist. He has been bested by Jon. The wildlings will be able to see that Mance had to take a demotion to advising and running missions for Jon (and he did so willingly).

[delspark]

On 6/24/2016 at 0:40 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

 Val actually uses the phrase "mercy"... And we know about who and what the gift of "mercy" is by now.  

Val says this in Dance: "North of the Wall it is. Hemlock is a sure cure, but a pillow or a blade will work as well. If I had given birth to that poor child, I would have given her the gift of mercy long ago."

 

Another whacky theory popped into my mind on reading this. What if Arya killed the real Val and is impersonating her? LOL

23 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Book canon=/=tv series canon.

AGREE!  Val is Jon's true Queen.

Yup. Shipping Jon with Val is way better than with Arya/Dany.

[The Fattest Leech]

@bemused I love your old thread and have used it before, so I'm glad that is good with you. 

Your thread said everything I always wanted to say regarding Val and what made me sign up on this forum here. I don't do online social media at all, except for here, so when I searched and came across any other Val admirers, I just couldn't resist. 

And yeah, I about died when GRRM said that at Balticon. Probably my most favorite bit of info from the whole weekend (along with any Bloodraven info). But that's just me being the Braggiest Leech again 

 

ADDING: For some reason I'm still not getting any updates from this thread  which sucks because Val is my favorite topic along with BR. 

[bemused]

And I'm with you on BR, too. (I have to admit I recoil when people want to put everything down to Bran time travelling).. sorry, OT 

[BalerionTheCat]

On 28/06/2016 at 10:19 AM, bemused said:

Mance knows he could not go back to being the wildling King, though many might still respect him in the way that the other wildling leaders are respected.

Mance knows he can't be the Free Folk king south of the Wall. Because he is one of them, a wildlings. And no kneeler south of the Wall, particularly the Northern lords would accept it, a kingdom of wildlings on their doorstep. But a son of the respected Ned Stark leading them... it could change everything.

[bemused]

7 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Mance knows he can't be the Free Folk king south of the Wall. Because he is one of them, a wildlings. And no kneeler south of the Wall, particularly the Northern lords would accept it, a kingdom of wildlings on their doorstep. But a son of the respected Ned Stark leading them... it could change everything.

good point.

[The Fattest Leech]

8 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Mance knows he can't be the Free Folk king south of the Wall. Because he is one of them, a wildlings. And no kneeler south of the Wall, particularly the Northern lords would accept it, a kingdom of wildlings on their doorstep. But a son of the respected Ned Stark leading them... it could change everything.

I agree. This is where I feel Val will help the most being alongside Jon (after he is healed). The wildlings will respond to her and the northern houses will respond to Jon, so together they are uniters. 

Side note: I don't think Mance is long for the world. This will leave Gilly's baby (and possibly Mances baby depending on Sams and each baby's fate) an orphan. Jon and Val may end up adopting the baby (babies) because maybe Jon can't make kids anymore, but also he carries with him the honor Ned taught his children. Val will want to keep her sisters daughter if given the chance. 

[BalerionTheCat]

9 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Side note: I don't think Mance is long for the world. This will leave Gilly's baby (and possibly Mances baby depending on Sams and each baby's fate) an orphan. Jon and Val may end up adopting the baby (babies) because maybe Jon can't make kids anymore, but also he carries with him the honor Ned taught his children. Val will want to keep her sisters daughter if given the chance. 

Yes, it is a possibility. It may be part of the price to pay. Dalla's son could be the closest Val could claim as her children. But I hope not. I feel Jon's blood, the gods' promised prince, is important and must remain on Earth.

[crowcrow]

On June 21, 2016 at 0:37 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

One more thing... the show leaving out people or killing them too early mean absolute fuck all.

Besides, they have to cherry pick what they "have time" for and who will make the greatest villain and bring in the ratings. So, I wouldn't worry about that much.

I was really pissed about two/three seasons ago when the show left Val out... or maybe Val was Karsi and immediately killed... but then I realized that I was happy the show left her out so they couldn't ruin her like they did Bloodraven. Win, win.

(No more show talk in the book threads, Ms. Leech )

AH i completely agree with this. The show is degrading all of the good characters 

[The Fattest Leech]

7 minutes ago, RevaM said:

AH i completely agree with this. The show is degrading all of the good characters 

Yuuuup! 

[crowcrow]

On April 24, 2017 at 11:55 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

Yuuuup! 

Like, season 5 & 6 sucked so badly. the worst part is that i have to sit here while i hear how everyone praises+says how awesome game of thrones is after ALL THE SHIT THEY HAVE DONE!

battle of bastards was a cliche and season 6 was very boring 

and don't even get me started on arya's arc+ dorne. just ugh

and I'm just so glad val didn't make it to the show. or else, she would have suffered from a terrible casting (a la Kit harrington/Jon snow) or she would have had a terrible character development. 

[The Commentator]

On 6/20/2016 at 1:56 PM, Hammer of the Gods said:

I have read many threads regarding the importance of Val in the story. People think she is some sort of priestess or is possibly a future lover of a resurrected Jon. On all these threads however many people commented that the fact that Val is not in the show means she has no important role to play. These threads are somewhat outdated now as the most recent ones came before season 5 before. Now that season 6 is almost over and its become clear how many major characters and plots are getting cut (JonCon, Young Griff, Arianne, Victarion, quentyn, Lady Stoneheart, good dornish plot, real bloodraven) has anyone changed their minds. 

 I know we really haven't seen a lot of her and grrm hasn't given her any depth or backstory yet, but I really love Val and I would love for her and Jon hook up. All these characters are so depressed. It would cool to see two awesome people get together and find some happiness together. I would like to see more conversation between them before they start of course. I know they do a bit a flirting but I feel like they still don't really know each other well enough for their relationship to be believable.

 

Val is a wildling with a hidden agenda.  I believe she and Mance are up to something.  Like take over the north.  I don't put it past Mance, Tormund, and Val to have a plan to set Stannis vs. Roose and clean up the weakened winner of the battle of ice.  Val's job is to seduce Jon further to the wildling cause.  

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Something that I have told in another thread is that Val is most likely not what she claims to be, she most definitely is a priestess  of the Old Gods but more than that, as The Fattest Leech has noticed there are things about Val that indicate that she might not even be a woman of the Free Folk.

[The Fattest Leech]

5 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Val is a wildling with a hidden agenda.  I believe she and Mance are up to something.  Like take over the north.  I don't put it past Mance, Tormund, and Val to have a plan to set Stannis vs. Roose and clean up the weakened winner of the battle of ice.  Val's job is to seduce Jon further to the wildling cause.  

So there is a...

Dornish master pla

Maester master plan 

BwB master plan

Northern ambitions master plan

Uncle Creepyfinger master plan

Eunuch master plan 

and now a Wildling master plan??? 

Westeros has never needed the Others more than they do now. 

[The Commentator]

3 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

So there is a...

Dornish master pla

Maester master plan 

BwB master plan

Northern ambitions master plan

Uncle Creepyfinger master plan

Eunuch master plan 

and now a Wildling master plan??? 

Westeros has never needed the Others more than they do now. 

The wildlings don't want to bend their knees.  They don't want to accept R'hllor or the Seven.  What choice do they have?  They can go back to the "other" side of the wall and face the Others.  They can stay on the south side and kneel.  The third option?  Take out Stannis, take out Roose, and turn the north into free folk nation.  Perhaps they fail but maybe in their minds it's worth a try.  

Call it the Wildling Invasion Master Plan, or WIMP.

[The Fattest Leech]

7 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

The wildlings don't want to bend their knees

Im sneaking on my phone so I'll have to be quick. 

The wildlings have already bent the knee three times in Dance. Once to Jon, once to Val, and Val once to Selyse out of courtesy to Jon, but then Val refused a second time because Selyse insulted her. That and because Val is playing out as a new Nymeria and this was a one to one match for Meria Martell in Dorne against a dragon invasion. 

Quote

 

.  They don't want to accept R'hllor or the Seven.

Thank the gods! But seriously, why should they? Jon won't. He says over and over in different ways how he is of the old gods. 

Quote

 What choice do they have?  They can go back to the "other" side of the wall and face the Others.  They can stay on the south side and kneel.  The third option?  Take out Stannis, take out Roose, and turn the north into free folk nation.  Perhaps they fail but maybe in their minds it's worth a try.  

Stannis will end up dying, along with Mel and Selyseand Winterfell and the north will go back to the Starks. This is why a union between Jon and Val, who the free folk have already seen as a leader, makes political sense. And it doesn't hurt that there is a mutual attraction between the two. 

[The Fattest Leech]

 

13 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Call it the Wildling Invasion Master Plan, or WIMP.

Hahahaaa  That is awesome. 

I do think there are some bad guy Wildlings left. The Weeper for one. But he will die soon. 

[Good Guy Garlan]

I think Val's role up to now was to be The Last Temptation of the Jon. He declined Stannis' offer to get Winterfell and marry Val, but there still was this little voice in his head telling him he was wrong to refuse that. Like when he sees Val and Ghost side by side and thinks they go well together (and naturally, not with whatever witchcraft Melisandre used to mess with Ghost's head). 

So I think when Jon comes back to life and realizes that everything he sacrificed for the Watch only got him a slow death in the snow, he'll say "Fuck it. Just fuck this shit." And he'll "steal" Val again and they'll have wild wildling sex, which would signify a huge turning point for Jon's character. This time he'll take everything Stannis' offered him: Winterfell and Val, and no ungrateful Watch is gonna stop him.

[Moiraine Sedai]

16 hours ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

I think Val's role up to now was to be The Last Temptation of the Jon. He declined Stannis' offer to get Winterfell and marry Val, but there still was this little voice in his head telling him he was wrong to refuse that. Like when he sees Val and Ghost side by side and thinks they go well together (and naturally, not with whatever witchcraft Melisandre used to mess with Ghost's head). 

So I think when Jon comes back to life and realizes that everything he sacrificed for the Watch only got him a slow death in the snow, he'll say "Fuck it. Just fuck this shit." And he'll "steal" Val again and they'll have wild wildling sex, which would signify a huge turning point for Jon's character. This time he'll take everything Stannis' offered him: Winterfell and Val, and no ungrateful Watch is gonna stop him.

That's unfair to the watch.  They accepted him.  He saw a hero like the halfhand sacrifice himself.  They elected him.  It's him who should show gratitude.  He failed them.

[Coolbeard the Exile]

On 2016-06-20 at 7:56 PM, Hammer of the Gods said:

I have read many threads regarding the importance of Val in the story. People think she is some sort of priestess or is possibly a future lover of a resurrected Jon. On all these threads however many people commented that the fact that Val is not in the show means she has no important role to play. These threads are somewhat outdated now as the most recent ones came before season 5 before. Now that season 6 is almost over and its become clear how many major characters and plots are getting cut (JonCon, Young Griff, Arianne, Victarion, quentyn, Lady Stoneheart, good dornish plot, real bloodraven) has anyone changed their minds. 

 I know we really haven't seen a lot of her and grrm hasn't given her any depth or backstory yet, but I really love Val and I would love for her and Jon hook up. All these characters are so depressed. It would cool to see two awesome people get together and find some happiness together. I would like to see more conversation between them before they start of course. I know they do a bit a flirting but I feel like they still don't really know each other well enough for their relationship to be believable.

 

I think she is jons twin.