Is Val Important

[DigUpHerBones]

19 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

And remember, Mance meets Dalla and Val on the road back from his secret rendezvous in to Winterfell when Robert was there to ask Ned to be his Hand.

Val is of the old gods

honestly? i had no idea that is the point in the timeline when Mance met them.

and here i thought you guys would make fun of me, that theory isn't so crazy and i missed a HUGE f*cking piece. 

[Alaynsa Starne]

On 6/20/2016 at 0:56 PM, Hammer of the Gods said:

I have read many threads regarding the importance of Val in the story. People think she is some sort of priestess or is possibly a future lover of a resurrected Jon. On all these threads however many people commented that the fact that Val is not in the show means she has no important role to play. These threads are somewhat outdated now as the most recent ones came before season 5 before. Now that season 6 is almost over and its become clear how many major characters and plots are getting cut (JonCon, Young Griff, Arianne, Victarion, quentyn, Lady Stoneheart, good dornish plot, real bloodraven) has anyone changed their minds. 

 I know we really haven't seen a lot of her and grrm hasn't given her any depth or backstory yet, but I really love Val and I would love for her and Jon hook up. All these characters are so depressed. It would cool to see two awesome people get together and find some happiness together. I would like to see more conversation between them before they start of course. I know they do a bit a flirting but I feel like they still don't really know each other well enough for their relationship to be believable.

"'Lord Crow is welcome to steal into my bed any night he dares. Once he's been gelded, keeping those vows will come much easier for him.'" 

Oddly, even after this, I've still never shipped anyone more than them. 

[Noelle Snow]

Oh I think she was totally flirting with him in that scene.

[The Fattest Leech]

2 hours ago, Alaynsa Starne said:

"'Lord Crow is welcome to steal into my bed any night he dares. Once he's been gelded, keeping those vows will come much easier for him.'" 

Oddly, even after this, I've still never shipped anyone more than them. 

Seriously, I know!  I'm not the romantic type, but Val makes me feel funny in a good way with Jon. 

[joluoto2]

I have this gut feeling that the reason she's important somehow, not sure exactly how though.

[CJ McLannister]

9 hours ago, Noelle Snow said:

Oh I think she was totally flirting with him in that scene.

Yeah.  If a girl told me that, I'd consider that a win.  Flat out rejections tend to be simpler.

[Raisin' Bran]

33 minutes ago, CJ McLannister said:

Yeah.  If a girl told me that, I'd consider that a win.  Flat out rejections tend to be simpler.

And of course she is important. If she was a throwaway character, then she would have been thrown away well before now.

[OuttaOldtown]

Too little is made of the sigil of a carved weirwood face she wear as a pin for her cloak upon her return with Tormund and the other wildlings, this is the only case in the story which we see a wildling doing something we've been lead to believe is only done by houses south of the wall. I would not be shocked to learn she & Dalla are members of a forgotten house that found itself on the wrong side of the wall..

[Buried Treasure]

On 6/21/2016 at 2:34 AM, DigUpHerBones said:

she's a wildling, yet speaks like a high born lady from south of the Wall.

there is something there.

i just have no idea what it is.

all you need to do is compare her interactions with Jon and then Ygritte's to see the difference.

i dig the theory about her, her sister, and Ned Starks mother all being of the same family tree.

By 'speaks like a high born lady from south of the Wall' do you mean that she speaks confidently and says my lord not m'lord? I have seen posters treat her use of my lord as significant in the past.

To which I counter we have only seen her in relatively privileged positions; beautiful woman / sister to Mance's wife / prized prisoner, which in some people is sufficient for them to be confident and assertive. She says my lord like a noble not m'lord like a peasant because wildlings are not peasants. As one of the Free Folk she used neither term, and since being at the Wall she has been treated and someone of rank and interacted mostly with people of rank, so it is unremarkable that she is using their terminology.

[Hammer of the Gods]

She also said something about having less hair between her legs than seysle has on her lip. This is funny but I feel like women dont just mention whats between their legs to a guy unless they want him to think about it. If someone could find the quote from the book that would be helpful.

[BricksAndSparrows]

Sure. She's important. But that doesn't guarantee her any time.

[DigUpHerBones]

8 hours ago, Buried Treasure said:

By 'speaks like a high born lady from south of the Wall' do you mean that she speaks confidently and says my lord not m'lord? I have seen posters treat her use of my lord as significant in the past.

To which I counter we have only seen her in relatively privileged positions; beautiful woman / sister to Mance's wife / prized prisoner, which in some people is sufficient for them to be confident and assertive. She says my lord like a noble not m'lord like a peasant because wildlings are not peasants. As one of the Free Folk she used neither term, and since being at the Wall she has been treated and someone of rank and interacted mostly with people of rank, so it is unremarkable that she is using their terminology.

my reference was Ygritte, because well, other than Dalla and Val, is the only other female Wildling we have been introduced to.

a fair comparison, no?

Ygritte uses phrases such as, "cut your cock off" while Val says, "once he's been gelded" 

do you think "gelded" is common in the Wildling vocabulary?

 

 

 

[Quillon]

11 hours ago, OuttaOldtown said:

I would not be shocked to learn she & Dalla are members of a forgotten house that found itself on the wrong side of the wall..

Yep, their house is another but long lost branch of starks, called HARstarks of HARdhome.

[zorkman]

4 hours ago, DigUpHerBones said:

my reference was Ygritte, because well, other than Dalla and Val, is the only other female Wildling we have been introduced to.

 

Osha?

[Le Cygne]

On 6/20/2016 at 3:23 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

Val will be majorly important. GRRM stated a long time ago that his characters and the story will be introduced in three 'waves'. She was introduced as part of the second act. I could talk about Val for days! You are correct, we have little info on her, but what we do have is already immense and will just point out a few things to start with:

1. Val is a healer and of the Old Gods, as Jon sees Ghost is and then realizes that he, himself, is also of the Old Gods.
2. Having  healer of the Old Gods like Val and Morna white mask around while you are stabbed to death is going to come in way more useful than what Mel has to offer.
3. Jon is also starting to see himself more a wildling by the mid- end of Dance.
4. Val sings to the "Little Monster" and we have already seen in Essos and Westeros that different witches sing spells. Val is protecting the wildling baby because she knows she has to leave and she wants the baby safe. She passes it off to Jon playfully as , "I can't help it if the baby happens to hear me sing."
5. Jon has a romantic thing for her but feels he is not worthy on some level because he is a bastard. Honestly, the way Jon feels about himself compared to Val and the whole highborn-prince-princess thing could be a thread on it's own. The phrase "you know nothing Jon Snow" carries over to here. Jon still knows nothing about himself and how he would be worthy of the wildling princess. (He is the prince that was promised).
6. Jon already "stole" Val when Stannis came riding in and sacked Mance's camp outside the wall. Val asks about Jarl and this event twice (?) just to make sure. Again, "you know nothing Jon Snow" because he is the only one that does not see it yet.
7. Most importantly, she is well respected within the entire wilding community and can travel unmolested and even aided by different clans. When Jon secretly sends her out, she comes back as promised and when promised. She is competent and loyal.
8. The passage I put below shows how Jon thinks of Val, and what he wants long term. But again, we the readers know what Jon is still blind to. He needs to still open his eyes like Ghost when he found the wolf as a pup. Ghost was the only one with his eyes already open.
9. Ghost really likes her, and we all know that if your dog doesn't like your girlfriend/boyfriend, then it's time to break up
   1. Mel uses potions and Magic once to fool Ghost into coming over to her while Mel used a "small" glamour to make herself look like Ygritte for a moment to lure Jon over to her. This was a false disguise. Val was true.
10. ADDING: When Jon stole Val, the constellation "Thief" was in the "Moonmaid". Mormont's raven calls Jon a "thief" several times.
    1. Jon refers to Val looking very "moonish" and silvery when their breath mingles in the air. Again with the repetition of the Moon and Stars attraction theme for the main characters in the story.
11. Stannis sees the high worth of Val and tries to marry her off to the higherborn knights in his service. We all know that ain't happening! Jon does know this... which is very curious. But no matter, because whoever Stannis puts in Winterfell, Val comes with the castle.

A Storm of Swords - Jon XII

Ygritte wanted me to be a wildling. Stannis wants me to be the Lord of Winterfell. But what do I want? The sun crept down the sky to dip behind the Wall where it curved through the western hills. Jon watched as that towering expanse of ice took on the reds and pinks of sunset. Would I sooner be hanged for a turncloak by Lord Janos, or forswear my vows, marry Val, and become the Lord of Winterfell? It seemed an easy choice when he thought of it in those terms . . . though if Ygritte had still been alive, it might have been even easier. Val was a stranger to him. She was not hard on the eyes, certainly, and she had been sister to Mance Rayder's queen, but still . . .

I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. I could name him Robb. Val would want to keep her sister's son, but we could foster him at Winterfell, and Gilly's boy as well. Sam would never need to tell his lie. We'd find a place for Gilly too, and Sam could come visit her once a year or so. Mance's son and Craster's would grow up brothers, as I once did with Robb.

He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. It was a hunger inside him, sharp as a dragonglass blade. A hunger . . . he could feel it. It was food he needed, prey, a red deer that stank of fear or a great elk proud and defiant. He needed to kill and fill his belly with fresh meat and hot dark blood. His mouth began to water with the thought.

Oh, nice. I like Val, she would be able to bridge Jon's world and her world.

[OuttaOldtown]

9 hours ago, Quillon said:

Yep, their house is another but long lost branch of starks, called HARstarks of HARdhome.

Or are the Starks an extension of them? Which sigil based on symbolism would you guess has a closer connection to the Old Gods, the First Men & the north in general, a carved weirwood face or a direwolf? 

[Nymeria's pack]

Val is definitely important but her reaction to Shireen is disturbing, and puts me right off her as a potential partner for Jon. 

Further, I wonder if she isn't a bit too perfect - like if you were creating a persona (glamouring?) to attract Jon wouldn't you come up with Val exactly? Naturally beautiful, wildling, tough like Ygritte and Arya, but well spoken and worldly wise, with hints to links to the old gods... could Val actually be a 'Mel' but of a different religion? To what purpose, I don't know, but I am suspicious of her. 

[finger]

On 22/6/2016 at 7:42 AM, Noelle Snow said:

Oh I think she was totally flirting with him in that scene.

 

On 22/6/2016 at 8:37 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

Seriously, I know!  I'm not the romantic type, but Val makes me feel funny in a good way with Jon. 

Well, ladies, she's a wildling, she's supposed to put up a bit of a fight before getting to it. But, look at the others facts.

. Sam tells she had taken to watch them drilling in the yard. Was she bored or was she letting someone see her?

. She could have fled, but she came back with Thormund.

. She gets along just fine with Ghost.

. She makes sure that Jon didn't have to do with Jarl's death.

And so on. She can be prouder than Ygritte, so she won't go to Jon easy, but sure she'll only show a mummer's farce of rejection and, of course, she'll be most careful not to geld him or even harm those useful things in any sense, provided they're still useful after the stabbing.

[Buried Treasure]

17 hours ago, DigUpHerBones said:

my reference was Ygritte, because well, other than Dalla and Val, is the only other female Wildling we have been introduced to.

a fair comparison, no?

Ygritte uses phrases such as, "cut your cock off" while Val says, "once he's been gelded" 

do you think "gelded" is common in the Wildling vocabulary?

 

 

 

Why not? They have ponies so are going to be familiar enough with the tern 'gelding' - more so than us who are less likely to be involved in animal husbandry. Val isn't special or anything more than what she seems but she is smart; smart enough to code her behaviour to her circumstances. Ygritte wasn't a kneeler, but Val kneels to Selyse, she is also capable of using language that it appropriate to the high ranking person she is being treated as.

[The Fattest Leech]

5 hours ago, Nymeria's pack said:

Val is definitely important but her reaction to Shireen is disturbing, and puts me right off her as a potential partner for Jon. 

Further, I wonder if she isn't a bit too perfect - like if you were creating a persona (glamouring?) to attract Jon wouldn't you come up with Val exactly? Naturally beautiful, wildling, tough like Ygritte and Arya, but well spoken and worldly wise, with hints to links to the old gods... could Val actually be a 'Mel' but of a different religion? To what purpose, I don't know, but I am suspicious of her. 

Val's reaction to Shireen seems odd to us, but it's actually in line with how the wildlings think of it. Val actually uses the phrase "mercy"... And we know about who and what the gift of "mercy" is by now.  This did surprise Jon, but it is not out of character for a wildling and there isn't a single character so far that isn't some degree of grey, and this make Val not tooo perfect as well. 

Maybe this will be a teaching moment to Val or Jon? Maybe Arya will be the one to give the gift of mercy to Shireen? 

Val says this in Dance: "North of the Wall it is. Hemlock is a sure cure, but a pillow or a blade will work as well. If I had given birth to that poor child, I would have given her the gift of mercy long ago."