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Is Val Important


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4 minutes ago, Buried Treasure said:

Why not? They have ponies so are going to be familiar enough with the tern 'gelding' - more so than us who are less likely to be involved in animal husbandry. Val isn't special or anything more than what she seems but she is smart; smart enough to code her behaviour to her circumstances. Ygritte wasn't a kneeler, but Val kneels to Selyse, she is also capable of using language that it appropriate to the high ranking person she is being treated as.

Exactly! Val knows a lot on how to survive and that includes dealing with "southern kneelers" when required. She isn't just a series of untamed impulses and reactions. 

She clearly has some south of the wall training. 

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4 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Exactly! Val knows a lot on how to survive and that includes dealing with "southern kneelers" when required. She isn't just a series of untamed impulses and reactions. 

She clearly has some south of the wall training. 

You agreed with me in your first paragraph, but took that to the opposite conclusion with your second, She is intelligent enough to adapt to the people she is dealing with at the Wall - which means she need not have prior experience with people from south of the Wall.

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49 minutes ago, Buried Treasure said:

You agreed with me in your first paragraph, but took that to the opposite conclusion with your second, She is intelligent enough to adapt to the people she is dealing with at the Wall - which means she need not have prior experience with people from south of the Wall.

Sorry, maybe I didn't type that correctly. I'm on my phone and can't quite get the quoting right at the moment but I'd live to clarify when I get to a real computer. 

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1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Val's reaction to Shireen seems odd to us, but it's actually in line with how the wildlings think of it. Val actually uses the phrase "mercy"... And we know about who and what the gift of "mercy" is by now. ;) This did surprise Jon, but it is not out of character for a wildling and there isn't a single character so far that isn't some degree of grey, and this make Val not tooo perfect as well. 

Maybe this will be a teaching moment to Val or Jon? Maybe Arya will be the one to give the gift of mercy to Shireen? 

Val says this in Dance: "North of the Wall it is. Hemlock is a sure cure, but a pillow or a blade will work as well. If I had given birth to that poor child, I would have given her the gift of mercy long ago."

 

I kind of see it as the mask slipping for a second. I see your point that the wildlings would consider it more cruel to keep Shireen alive so it would be normal for Val to see it that way too.  But when I said too perfect , I meant too much of a match to what Jon's 'ideal woman at this point in time' would be - if you were trying to attract Jon what would be your checklist: 

1. wildling - not bound to conventions south of the wall so won't even consider his 'bastard' status.  TICK.

2. tough/free - like Arya or Ygritte, not 'ladylike'.  TICK. 

3. Intelligent.  TICK.

4. Beautiful.  (this makes Jon no different from anyone else - I'm not saying he's shallow). TICK.

5. Subtle connections to the Old Gods - the weirwood brooch - TICK

6. Someone to confide in/trust.  TICK. 

7.  Pragmatic. He is practical (figuring out how to feed everyone, driving a hard bargain with Tormund and the Iron Bank guy whose name I can't remember).  TICK. 

8. Ghost likes her (but Ghost also went to Mel)

9. Princess but not a princess.  Whether he likes it or not Jon was brought up with the values of a highborn family.  He may have felt an outsider but a princess will always in his mind have a certain status.  Now Val is not actually a princess but Stannis and others treat her like one, and she acts like a natural leader, but one with whom he can actually feel like an equal. TICK TICK TICK. 

It's too much like someone thought this through very carefully. (Maybe just GRRM coming up with a good match for Jon and I'm being way OTT suspicious!!). 

There's also that passage where she comes back to the Wall from meeting Tormund and he notices she is all in white.  Mel is red, Val is white.  Ghost is white with red eyes. There's something there I can't put my finger on exactly. 

Still suspicious, but would like to be wrong :)

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1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Val's reaction to Shireen seems odd to us, but it's actually in line with how the wildlings think of it. Val actually uses the phrase "mercy"... And we know about who and what the gift of "mercy" is by now. ;) This did surprise Jon, but it is not out of character for a wildling and there isn't a single character so far that isn't some degree of grey, and this make Val not tooo perfect as well. 

Maybe this will be a teaching moment to Val or Jon? Maybe Arya will be the one to give the gift of mercy to Shireen? 

Val says this in Dance: "North of the Wall it is. Hemlock is a sure cure, but a pillow or a blade will work as well. If I had given birth to that poor child, I would have given her the gift of mercy long ago."

Yeah, I agree, and good catch.

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I don't know how important Val is for the story itself. But I am 100% sure she will be Jon's mate. I would like she is the younger and more beautiful queen of Cersei's prophecy. Not as power grasp by another throne pretender, but for justice for all the crimes and atrocities committed.

She is on my preferred list, with Jon, Davos and Sam.

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11 hours ago, Nymeria's pack said:

Val is definitely important but her reaction to Shireen is disturbing, and puts me right off her as a potential partner for Jon.

Yeah it was a surprising reaction in a bad way but compared to Ygritte, Val is a no brainer for Jon if we put "love" aside.

(Jon loved Ygritte but it should have been more easier choice between her and the watch. Not that the Watch is great and is the honorable thing to do etc. which was weirdly emphasized as the deciding factor but what if he stayed with her? Could he really become one with the wildlings? Could he raid/pillage/slaughter etc his former countrymen? Just because he'll be with his love? And wouldn't he question his love for her as she goes on merciless slaughtering of defenseless villagers?..

He loves her but he doesn't know who she is(yet, as he knows nothing). Love blinded him etc.)

11 hours ago, OuttaOldtown said:

Or are the Starks an extension of them? Which sigil based on symbolism would you guess has a closer connection to the Old Gods, the First Men & the north in general, a carved weirwood face or a direwolf? 

A Mammoth.

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On 6/23/2016 at 3:21 PM, Buried Treasure said:

You agreed with me in your first paragraph, but took that to the opposite conclusion with your second, She is intelligent enough to adapt to the people she is dealing with at the Wall - which means she need not have prior experience with people from south of the Wall.

Hey there. I know it's been a day or two, but I have not forgotten about you and still wanted to clarify this.

When I responded to your quote at the top about Val kneeling to Selyse (below), what I meant was since Val has a done lot of traveling and she and Dalla met Mance when he was returning from Winterfell, possibly still south of the wall. So she may have some knowledge of how things are done "down south" and that is one reason she voluntarily knelt to Selyse. That is what I meant by south of the wall training. I was not trying to contradict myself, or anyone, just showing how Val smart enough to know what to do and when. South of the wall training, or experience, etc, merged with her wider travel knowledge, will be very useful when the political partying starts to happen.

 

On 6/23/2016 at 3:07 PM, Buried Treasure said:

Why not? They have ponies so are going to be familiar enough with the tern 'gelding' - more so than us who are less likely to be involved in animal husbandry. Val isn't special or anything more than what she seems but she is smart; smart enough to code her behaviour to her circumstances. Ygritte wasn't a kneeler, but Val kneels to Selyse, she is also capable of using language that it appropriate to the high ranking person she is being treated as.

 

On 6/23/2016 at 3:13 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

Exactly! Val knows a lot on how to survive and that includes dealing with "southern kneelers" when required. She isn't just a series of untamed impulses and reactions. 

She clearly has some south of the wall training. 

 

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I always enjoyed Val as a character. She seems a natural match for Jon, more so than any of the other names he's typically shipped with. Regardless, she's someone who has the respect and can often enough speak for the wildling tribes, who I think will play a significant enough role in the next two books.

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On 6/20/2016 at 2:06 PM, Mick of House Guinness said:

She delivered Mance's son, in the middle of a battle.

She provides Jon with (platonic) human contact when he is struggling with the loneliness of command.

She went on a mission north of the wall, alone, and succeeded in contacting Tormund, bringing him to Castle Black to parley with Jon. As a direct result over three thousand free folk are saved from the Others (for now) and kept out of the army of wights. As a side effect this contributes to the mutiny and Jon's stabbing.

Her presence at Castle Black causes tension between Jon and the Queen's Men, leading to Ser Patrek being dismembered by Wun Wun after making his ill advised attempt at seeing her. This provides the distraction Jon's attackers have been waiting for.

So, no she is not important.

 

Well actually Jon suggested to Ser Patrek that he steal Val, and then neglected to tell him he left Wun Wun to guard the tower she was in, which led to his death. Hahaha, good one Jon. Guy was dick but getting your arm ripped off seems a bit extreme. That's what you get for being a Cowboys fan I guess.

On 6/20/2016 at 1:07 PM, CJ McLannister said:

Important to whom?  She's still got some symbolic importance to the Wildlings and Stannis seems to feel that she is important as a bargaining chip.  Will she be instrumental in the fight against the Others?  Probably not.  Might she play some role in the political maneuverings up north?  Maybe.  Will she kill Shireen to prevent the spread of greyscale?  I hope not.

I think that is about right, she has some importance to the past, and some importance in the limited context of Jon's story and the Wall, but like Daario probably not all that important to the overall story. The Mad mouse matters in the Sansa story but not really a major player in the grand scheme of things. Blonde hair, blue eyes, princess, might as well call her Valyria and get it over with. Val? Valyria, gosh this couldn't be foreshadowing in some part. Either that or she has the strangest Wildling name ever and migrated north of the wall from Southern Cali.

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2 hours ago, KingMance said:

So, she comes back with bright blue eyes, and no one in 3 pages of this thread has put that with The Nights King theory? Don't know if it will play out like that, but something to consider.

I think her eyes looks pale grey in interiors, and bright blue in day light. But now I did a bit of research; The Nights King theory I don't buy cos Val seems like "alive" as a normal human(cheek reddening from cold and visible hot breath) but the other theory which I don't like that Val's married(to Torregg) with her clothing, especially cloak being all white when she comes back etc seems plausible.

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There are blue eyed people in Westeros. Val most likely has the type of eyes that look one way in natural light, another by interior light, another from the clothes she's wearing, etc. Jon and the other wildlings have seen wights before. I'm fairly certain they'd be able to tell if Val was a wight, even if a sentient one. Plus I do believe George has said that was an error on his part, having her eyes go from gray to blue.

I think the white outfit has more to do with her being a priestess of some sort more than a wedding outfit. Not to mention, if you really look at how the wildlings view things, if she's "married" to anyone in their eyes it's probably Jon. She may consider herself stolen by him, she's asked more than once what happened to her previous lover and she's not guarded by Stannis' men anymore but Jon's. When Jon tells Ser Patrek that the only way to get Val is to steal her. That is wildling tradition and that if he failed he would receive a vicious beating from the woman's family. And like Ser Creighton said, SP ends up shredded by a giant that Jon conveniently forgot to mention he'd put there to protect Val.

The only one in this that doesn't seem something is going on with Jon & Val is Jon himself lol.

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Book canon=/=tv series canon.

I don't know how important Val is for the story itself. But I am 100% sure she will be Jon's mate. I would like she is the younger and more beautiful queen of Cersei's prophecy. Not as power grasp by another throne pretender, but for justice for all the crimes and atrocities committed.

She is on my preferred list, with Jon, Davos and Sam.

AGREE! :commie::commie::commie: Val is Jon's true Queen.

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