Logically, Littlefinger has to die now, right?

[Pwyll41]

Don't think that what happened in Mereen doesn't affect the North.  This show has no rudder now that it passed the books, sooooo...... Girl Power!  Dani is going to rule the world, Asha becomes Queen of the Iron Islands (Dani ignored Tyrion's advice on that subject). Its a new age in Westeros. Matriarchal society.  So, in the North:

Remember that Jon instructed Rickon to be buried in the Tombs next to his father. That could be the opportunity for the reveal of R+L=J.  After that reveal, Sansa has an enlightening conversation with Ser Royce.  That leads to a wedding between Sansa and Robyn, thereby combining the Stark line with the only army left in the North (how many of the 65 Bear Islanders are still left?) LF is thwarted and has an awful, mortal accident.  Sweet Robyn falls off his horse, Royce becomes Commander of the Vale. Leaves a contingent of Knights to restore and keep order in WF.  The Hound becomes the protector of his 'Little Bird' and Jon embraces his newly revealed lineage and heads to a rendevous with the Mother of Dragons.

End of season 6.

[The Dames do Moan]

25 minutes ago, Zoo_Dane said:

Brienne would know but since she has pledged her loyalty and service to Sansa it's not her place to undermine her. Losing LF would weaken Sansa right now, you'd have to think Sansa is the one who will end LF at the right time, not Brienne betraying Sansa's trust to tell on LF. 

Yeah, agreed Brienne wouldn't betray Sansa if Sansa asked her or order her not to tell on LF. Probably Brienne wouldn't either if she just recognized that Sansa was playing it that way.

But she could say something before even seeing Sansa and/or Podrick could say something, not the most strategic duo there. Also her original vow was to Catelyn, so if she thought Sansa was in real danger with LF I could see her killing / betraying him herself.

But your right in the fact that if Sansa asked her not to, she most likely wouldn't post that time.

[Cragen]

20 hours ago, RhaeBee said:

Because he did favor after favor for her? Because she seems to trust him? Because maybe she has not yet entirely turned into Cersei? 

It would be such Cersie move to keep trust in Littlefinger. Stark move to.

[MoonWoman]

1 hour ago, DarkerStar said:

First is your name a reference to Lanfear? If so awesome. and my answer for your question is that LF has always seen Sansa as the key to him getting control of the North.

Yes it is. Apparently I am a glutton for long, drawn out fantasy series. 

If that is LF end game, then he has a vested interest in no Stark males surviving. 

[WSmith84]

16 hours ago, lancerman said:

Don't you think part of the reason Cersie believed Sansa was in the North was because Sansa was in the North and people knew it? Like why on Earth would the Bolton's actually do anything but tell  Cersie "no this guys a lying piece of shit, take you're entire Lannister and Tyrell army to the North and come search just so we can prove our loyalty to you"?

Several problems here. No way did rumours of Sansa being in the North reach King's Landing before Baelish did. For one, we get absolutely no hint of this and, two, Cersei is completely surprised (and furious) about this news. We get no indication that Cersei ever asked the Boltons if it was true or not or that she told them she knew. Again, we have evidence to the contrary: Roose is only concerned with the Lannisters finding out after Sansa escapes. They clearly believe they were in the clear. Plus, wouldn't Roose write exactly that to Cersei whether the match is true or not? If Ramsey marries Sansa, he writes 'no, that is definitely a lie.' If Ramsey doesn't marry Sansa, he writes 'no, that is definitely a lie.'

It makes literally no sense. Especially if they are not getting the benefit of having Sansa in the North. And then LF would be found out and guess who looks bad? Him.

What benefit did the Boltons actually get from having Sansa in the North again? The whole 'the North will only rally behind a Stark' stuff was clearly nonsense, so why did the Boltons risk alienating their only allies (the Crown) to marry Sansa?

In this scenario, LF had a role to play in both. AND if Sansa decides  to turn on him, well one she just asked for his help, he is in control of the biggest army that is currently in the North AND if it becomes a he said/ she said between Sansa and LF, whose side will Robin take?

I suppose Robin might believe LF. Of course, Royce won't (the guy actually leading the army). Anyone who was in Winterfell when Sansa and LF strode in would be able to give the true account as well. Jon, Ser Davos, Lady Mormont... they all know the truth. I suppose Robin might believe LF over all of them, but it's a needless risk. In my scenario, he doesn't have to take the risk of Sansa turning on him (not being raped and abused does that to a person) and she'd be far more open to any suggestions he has (like, say, marrying him).

I've also realised there's another plot hole in the whole Sansa-Ramsey set up. In S5, when LF and Sansa are in Winterfell, Cersei orders Qyburn to send LF a raven. She says to send it to the Eyrie, or 'wherever he's skulking about.' Now, given that he's Lord of Harrenhal and effective ruler of the Vale, you'd presumably send ravens to HH, the Eyrie and maybe Runestone, if you had some idea he'd be there. Point is, eventually a raven (or rider) would turn up at his last known location, Runestone. So someone from Runestone had to know LF was in Winterfell in order to send on the message. And we know he received it, because we had that scene where LF and Roose discuss said message. But that means someone at Runestone had to have known that LF was in Winterfell in the first place. Who? I'm going to bet on no one, and guess that the show simply didn't think about that. If there is someone, well that someone also knows that LF is lying.

[ErasmusF]

59 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

I've also realised there's another plot hole in the whole Sansa-Ramsey set up. In S5, when LF and Sansa are in Winterfell, Cersei orders Qyburn to send LF a raven. She says to send it to the Eyrie, or 'wherever he's skulking about.' Now, given that he's Lord of Harrenhal and effective ruler of the Vale, you'd presumably send ravens to HH, the Eyrie and maybe Runestone, if you had some idea he'd be there. Point is, eventually a raven (or rider) would turn up at his last known location, Runestone. So someone from Runestone had to know LF was in Winterfell in order to send on the message. And we know he received it, because we had that scene where LF and Roose discuss said message. But that means someone at Runestone had to have known that LF was in Winterfell in the first place. Who? I'm going to bet on no one, and guess that the show simply didn't think about that. If there is someone, well that someone also knows that LF is lying.

Not necessarily. He could have his own maester running the messages for him. 

I am not sure why everyone is so worked up about Cersei finding anything out. (1) She has no audience with the King. (2) Even if she did get an audience at this point, she has no credibility. (3) She has no army. Jaime commands the Lannister forces. (4) I doubt very much that Jaime thinks it would be wise to start a war in the North with what's left of the Lannister forces, unless he is sure there is some end game. (5) On a related note, all of these people have too much going on to try to chase down Sansa. (6) The only Lannister who would have gone to the North to get Sansa is Tywin, and he is dead because his only reason to get Sansa, Tyrion and his claim to Winterfell, escaped and killed him. 

No one in King's Landing gives a damn about Sansa at this point. Tyrion is the mastermind behind Joffrey's death. Sansa is forgotten.   

Littlefinger has taken Cersei for all she's worth. She has no more power to do him harm or good. He's stopped taking her calls. He's set up quite a nice chunk of influence, from the Wall to the Vale. His best move is to wait for the Tyrell's to extinguish their forces. No idea what the show runners will do, but pressing an unwanted marriage is probably a bad idea. Book LF would press a marriage pact with Sweetrobin, wait, then when SR dies, insert himself as the next best alternative. 

[WSmith84]

1 minute ago, ErasmusF said:

Not necessarily. He could have his own maester running the messages for him. 

His own maester in Runestone? First, where would he get a maester? He definitely didn't have one at the Fingers, there wasn't one at HH and the Eyrie had its own maester. The main point is that someone had to know that LF went to Winterfell in order to send him the message. Given that that is a vital piece of information that proves LF is a ****ing liar, the show can't just hand-wave that away and still be considered well-written.

I am not sure why everyone is so worked up about Cersei finding anything out. (1) She has no audience with the King. (2) Even if she did get an audience at this point, she has no credibility. (3) She has no army. Jaime commands the Lannister forces. (4) I doubt very much that Jaime thinks it would be wise to start a war in the North with what's left of the Lannister forces, unless he is sure there is some end game. (5) On a related note, all of these people have too much going on to try to chase down Sansa. (6) The only Lannister who would have gone to the North to get Sansa is Tywin, and he is dead because his only reason to get Sansa, Tyrion and his claim to Winterfell, escaped and killed him. 

The Crown can't ignore their Warden of the North marrying a girl suspected of murdering the King. That they aren't doing anything about it is frankly ridiculous. Tommen, Kevan, Jaime, the High Sparrow... All of them should be demanding Roose and Ramsey die and Sansa be brought to face justice.

No one in King's Landing gives a damn about Sansa at this point. Tyrion is the mastermind behind Joffrey's death. Sansa is forgotten. 

Sansa disappeared moments after Joffrey died. She should be suspect number 2. That no one cares about her being in the North is poor writing. Jaime even knows she's planning to retake Winterfell, for God's sake, and he still doesn't care. 

Littlefinger has taken Cersei for all she's worth. She has no more power to do him harm or good. He's stopped taking her calls. He's set up quite a nice chunk of influence, from the Wall to the Vale. His best move is to wait for the Tyrell's to extinguish their forces. No idea what the show runners will do, but pressing an unwanted marriage is probably a bad idea. Book LF would press a marriage pact with Sweetrobin, wait, then when SR dies, insert himself as the next best alternative. 

 

[ErasmusF]

3 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

His own maester in Runestone? First, where would he get a maester? He definitely didn't have one at the Fingers, there wasn't one at HH and the Eyrie had its own maester. The main point is that someone had to know that LF went to Winterfell in order to send him the message. Given that that is a vital piece of information that proves LF is a ****ing liar, the show can't just hand-wave that away and still be considered well-written.

The maester at The Eyrie would be sworn to guard the house secrets, and if he were at Runestone (the Eyrie is unoccupied in Winter) then that master would do his bidding. 

The Crown can't ignore their Warden of the North marrying a girl suspected of murdering the King. That they aren't doing anything about it is frankly ridiculous. Tommen, Kevan, Jaime, the High Sparrow... All of them should be demanding Roose and Ramsey die and Sansa be brought to face justice.

No, they can't. But it doesn't have to be their first priority, like, say, the Queen locked up by the Faith. 

Sansa disappeared moments after Joffrey died. She should be suspect number 2. That no one cares about her being in the North is poor writing. Jaime even knows she's planning to retake Winterfell, for God's sake, and he still doesn't care. 

Right. Jaime DGAF. He doesn't believe she had anything to do with Joff's death. At least that is consistent with the books. 

The maester at The Eyrie would be sworn to guard the house secrets, and if he were at Runestone (the Eyrie is unoccupied in Winter) then that master would do his bidding. 

 

 

[WSmith84]

3 minutes ago, ErasmusF said:

The maester at The Eyrie would be sworn to guard the house secrets, and if he were at Runestone (the Eyrie is unoccupied in Winter) then that master would do his bidding.

But he knows LF went North to Winterfell. And Robin is his lord. So he can tell Robin the truth. Besides, Royce's maester would be in charge of the rookery at Runestone and would be the one to receive any raven. And he would surely deliver the message to Robin or Royce before allowing the other maester to send it on. And then HE would know where the message was sent to. This maester doesn't have to keep LF's secret, he can just tell Royce and Robin 'LF went to Winterfell, we sent a raven with a message for him there.'

[Benedict Oathkeeper]

In answer to the OP. No, he doesn't have to die, right now.  Littlefinger has to die eventually, but it feels more fitting, to me, for him to go out in the uber ascendancy in the game of thrones (smugger than ever, if possible) and then to die at the hands of the White Walkers, despite numerous warnings they were coming, because he just didn't believe in snarks and grumpkins. 

This is a fantasy novel, LF.  Any character that doesn't believe in either (a) snarks or (b) grumpkins is on borrowed time.

[Chib]

46 minutes ago, Benedict Oathkeeper said:

In answer to the OP. No, he doesn't have to die, right now.  Littlefinger has to die eventually, but it feels more fitting, to me, for him to go out in the uber ascendancy in the game of thrones (smugger than ever, if possible) and then to die at the hands of the White Walkers, despite numerous warnings they were coming, because he just didn't believe in snarks and grumpkins. 

This is a fantasy novel, LF.  Any character that doesn't believe in either (a) snarks or (b) grumpkins is on borrowed time.

 

No don't kill LF, he is my favourite. 

[ErasmusF]

1 hour ago, WSmith84 said:

But he knows LF went North to Winterfell. And Robin is his lord. So he can tell Robin the truth. Besides, Royce's maester would be in charge of the rookery at Runestone and would be the one to receive any raven. And he would surely deliver the message to Robin or Royce before allowing the other maester to send it on. And then HE would know where the message was sent to. This maester doesn't have to keep LF's secret, he can just tell Royce and Robin 'LF went to Winterfell, we sent a raven with a message for him there.'

Maesters are just as prone to influence as anyone else. You don't piss off the dangerous guy in your house. And my guess is that LF has a Lothor Brune type to keep an eye on the maester. 

Everyone in the Vale is waiting on Sweetrobin to die. 

Anyway, of all the things to get worked up over, this seems pretty trivial. 

[missingm]

23 hours ago, Apathetic Onlooker said:

Ohh, I'm looking forward to what fresh new contrivance is invented for why she doesn't explain this to the Vale knights-- if any contrivance is invented at all and the whole matter isn't just bloody hand-waved.  I'm guessing Baelish's teleporter will come in handy.

She agreed to the marriage. She also agreed to cover for LF at the Vale. She would be just as disgraced as he would be if the truth came out. By now LF has had plenty of time to tell her the story about being surprised by the Boltons. She will stick to that story.

Why would she tell them how she lied to the Lords of the Vale about Lysa falling through the moon door by accident, then how she agreed to enter Winterfell, and ultimately agreed to stay behind and be promised to Ramsey? 

[Donaldys I Trumpagar]

On 6/20/2016 at 0:24 PM, Lyin' Ned said:

Maybe the giant was Wun Wun and Ramsay was the lovely maiden destined to slay it.

Lol, +10000.

[Traceyb07]

22 hours ago, RhaeBee said:

Yes, and if Sansa was to refuse to marry him (or sweetrobin), it's not like he couldn't leave a couple hundred men in Winterfell. After all, who is to stand up against him now? The wildlings, the Bolton army, the umber army, the Karstark army and the forces of other smaller houses were just all destroyed in battle. The rest of the northern forces died in Robb's battles or at the red wedding. The north couldn't raise 500 men if it tried (as long as the Manderlys aren't a thing in the show, but even if they were, I doubt they could ever hope to match up to LF's forces). 

This. So much of this.
LF totally waited til Jon was down to just a few men. It was almost too perfect. 
The Starks have nothing big to offer and they have no male heir. Jon doesn't count. He's a bastard. 
Sansa will need to marry someone to ensure they keep their home. 
However, one could argue someone else would be willing to marry Sansa, but let's get real. The Starks are a sham. Rob Stark made sure to leave their name in ruin with the dumb decisions he made. 
LF or Robin are the only two left to protect her and those walls. She's going to have to make a choice.
She can kill LF, but that move will ruin the progress she's made. 
She needs to have Robin on her side and if he catches word that she was responsible for his daddy's death, we'll all get to see Sansa fly. I doubt that Sansa could even control that kid.
LF has full control of Robin. There's no room for Sansa there, 
There's no telling what might happen at this point, but Sansa will need to tread lightly...

[ummester]

7 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Even though she could have had Brienne kill him and would have had the Vale army from the get go.  And even though she could execute him post WF battle and have the army without having to deal with a deceitful POS.  She will choose the most illogical, destructive course, as she already has....and will let him hang around.  LOL.

ETA. Of course he should already be dead, he should have had an "accident" upon leaving Winterfell after Sansa was dropped off w/Roose Bolton, or another "accident" on the way to Winterfell after tipping his hand that Royce is expendable. 

Yes, letting himself be alone with Sansa is his main weakness and, eventually, Sansa will kill him. But even D&D have said there isn't much story left - they are dragging the main plot in this show out as far as it will stretch (the last 2 books are even guilty of this). There is a whole heap of silly filler and disjointed connections between the few things that matter.

The story probably should have been wrapped up this season - starting with the Battle of the Bastards or something - but, you know, money and greed, gotta keep making anything that turns a buck.

[Cas Stark]

8 minutes ago, ummester said:

Yes, letting himself be alone with Sansa is his main weakness and, eventually, Sansa will kill him. But even D&D have said there isn't much story left - they are dragging the main plot in this show out as far as it will stretch (the last 2 books are even guilty of this). There is a whole heap of silly filler and disjointed connections between the few things that matter.

The story probably should have been wrapped up this season - starting with the Battle of the Bastards or something - but, you know, money and greed, gotta keep making anything that turns a buck.

I think that would be too fast, to wrap up the whole thing this season, but they definitely have dragged their feet on several of the plots, especially king's landing.  

I don't know about greed though, the show is so hot, that despite it's really showing the limitations of the showrunners ability to put together a cogent story line w/out Martin's blueprint, HBO would have happily gone another 3 years, instead, what it really is, is one more year.  I would assume they're going to shoot all the remaining 13-14 episodes at the same time and then HBO will dole them out in two mini seasons.

I'm struggling to understand why they introduced Euron this year when he did nothing?  And if Dorne really will not come back, I hope not, but...they could have brought a fair amount of stuff forward from the story this year if they weren't artificially tied to their big season ending last two episodes framework.  Arya could have returned midseason.  KL could have been burned down midseason.  But then, they make so many weird choices.....weird choice upon weird choice.

[ummester]

3 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I'm struggling to understand why they introduced Euron this year when he did nothing?  And if Dorne really will not come back, I hope not, but...they could have brought a fair amount of stuff forward from the story this year if they weren't artificially tied to their big season ending last two episodes framework.  Arya could have returned midseason.  KL could have been burned down midseason.  But then, they make so many weird choices.....weird choice upon weird choice.

If Euron never amounts to anything and Dorne doesn't come back then obviously both of them are little more then poorly handled fan service.

Re the big season ending - they have forgotten their own pattern. It used to be odd season, kill someone important in episode 9 and end with how hopefully magical Dany is in episode 10. Even season, have a big battle in episode 9 and end with something darkly magical in episode 10. Now, it's just a bit of a mess - but fingers crossed they end with something darkly magical to do with Bran and the Nights King next episode (I swear, those 2 characters are the only reason I'm still invested).

[Cas Stark]

5 minutes ago, ummester said:

If Euron never amounts to anything and Dorne doesn't come back then obviously both of them are little more then poorly handled fan service.

Re the big season ending - they have forgotten their own pattern. It used to be odd season, kill someone important in episode 9 and end with how hopefully magical Dany is in episode 10. Even season, have a big battle in episode 9 and end with something darkly magical in episode 10. Now, it's just a bit of a mess - but fingers crossed they end with something darkly magical to do with Bran and the Nights King next episode (I swear, those 2 characters are the only reason I'm still invested).

Euron can't be fan service because he hasn't done anything yet in the books, so I have to assume he will do something important, but that his intro was badly handled, and he was terribly miscast.  I guess Dorne was a hacks idea of fan service:  we had a good actor, in a good part who was given a fantastic introduction and was very popular with viewers=hire 3 bad actresses, given them terrible costumes, terrible lines and put them in a plot that would be stupid even in an action flick and then have them kill everyone else in their storyline. LOL.

I've been trying to figure out how they could end with Jon's reveal, or elsewise how they get it in there that will make any sense to viewers, but more likely they'll end with Firestarter giving another speech as she sails for Westeros.  Manderly shows up, it's another rah rah Stark moment.  Davos kills Mel. King's Landing is set on fire.  Arya gets to Westeros and kills Walder Frey.  Dany gets ready to sail. Varys kills some people. TOJ Part II. Euron will surely have to do something or show up somewhere.  That should do it.  EPIC! CRASH! BOOM! BAM! Highest rated episode ever!

[LordPathera]

Logically, Sansa and Jon have every reason to kill Littlefinger. And they have the capabilities.

All Sansa has to do is trust Jon and tell him everything and Littlefinger either loses his head or is fed to Ghost.

Or, Sansa can tell the knights of the Vale who really killed Lysa and Jon Arryn and that Littlefinger handed her over to the Boltons to be raped and tortured...boom, LF is stabbed a thousand times over by Vale blades.

Or, Sansa can tell the Northmen that Littlefinger is the one who betrayed Ned Stark and got him arrested/executed and Northmen will be lining up to butcher a dying Petyr Baelish.

But that would require consistently good writing. Which is strongly lacking these day.