Snowisnobastard

R+L=J confirmation? Who/how?

124 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, Leticia Stark said:

Yeah, but I still want to know about the promises.

Me too. That spoiler.... argh!! I hope it's wrong.

I think the promise is more than just keeping Jon safe, I bet he promised that when the time was right he would help Jon fulfill the destiny Rhaegar saw for him. That's why Ned agonized over his broken promises. If it was just to keep Jon safe from Robert, he kept that promise so no reason to feel guilty. But if he promised the rest just to make his dying sister happy, then turned around and put Robert on the throne, hid Jon away and eventually sent him to the Wall, that's plenty to feel guilty about.

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1 hour ago, Rory Snow said:

It's doubtful LF truly knows, but there's enough circumstantial evidence to make him strongly suspect, and more importantly, enough circumstantial evidence to allow him to sell it, if he thinks the info will serve his own purposes. I think the reveal to the viewer will come thru Bran, but to Jon & Sansa I can easily see it coming from Baelish even if Petyr himself isn't 100% sure.

Yep.  I think being in the same vicinity as Jon makes him suspect something is up.  More importantly if Sansa and Jon work together to deny LF the North, Jon now becomes an obstacle to LF getting what he wants.  LF could bluff the heck out of it.  Jon might say that he doesn't believe it but it could plant enough doubts in his mind to throw him back into emo-Jon mode, which is what LF would want.  LF could also use this information to drag Jon into the Great Game by informing Mad Queen Cersei or Dany about Jon's claim to the Iron Throne.

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Maybe I'm reading too far into this, but I'm sure everyone noticed the TOJ teaser in Bran's episode six vision. 

Spoiler

But if you didn't it's a very brief image of Ned holding Lyanna's hand over her bleeding abdomen.  It's a lot of blood and where it is it doesn't seem like just bleeding from childbirth.  Is it possible that Ned may have had to perform some kind of C-section to save Jon, and killing her so her child could live was part of the promise?

 

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15 hours ago, Dragonslack said:

It would be better to revel it when there is a point to it. What is the point right now?

The reveal will happen just before Jon and Sansa get their fuck on. It'll be easier for the audience to swallow

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22 hours ago, jrod said:

I could see the show doing something heavy handed like that, just to avoid confusion.  But really doesn't make sense, since the only "Jon" I can recall off the top of my head is Jon Arryn, who was like a 2nd father to Ned, and the basis for his name.  Can't think of any other Jon that would have significance for Lyanna to name her son that.

Think they could get the same point across with a "Don't let anybody know he is Rhaegar's son, promise me", and then a cut to Jon Snow.  Would much rather prefer that, but agree, can see the show runners being more "on point" with it.

I'd prefer it to be more subtle, only in that I feel like most of this season has been really heavy handed. 

"WILDFIRE. SEPT OF BAELOR. WINK!"

or

Arya and the little dark tunnel, etc. 

Nothing has really been subtle, whereas most of the time this show is at it's best when it leaves more to interpretation (remember when Joffrey died? How many people were theorizing what happened to his cup and who it could have been?)

Two things they really need to get out very clearly:

1 - What happened at the Tower of Joy, and why is it Jon?

2 - Why does this Jon reveal even matter? 

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Once Jon is named either KitN or Lord of Winterfell by the other Northern Lords who supported him, Littlefinger will drop this bomb. He will see their proclamation as a threat to his grand plan to become Warden of the North. He will think that by telling everyone that Jon isn't actually Ned's son, but his sister's with Rhaegar, that people will then want to make Sansa the ruler in the North since she is Ned's child. Then he marries Sansa and becomes the Lord.

I believe he will do this and it will all backfire. The people are choosing Jon not because he is Ned's son but because he was their leader in the victory over the Boltons.

Edited by DireGhost
Unintentional quote

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11 minutes ago, DireGhost said:

Once Jon is named either KitN or Lord of Winterfell by the other Northern Lords who supported him, Littlefinger will drop this bomb. He will see their proclamation as a threat to his grand plan to become Warden of the North. He will think that by telling everyone that Jon isn't actually Ned's son, but his sister's with Rhaegar, that people will then want to make Sansa the ruler in the North since she is Ned's child. Then he marries Sansa and becomes the Lord.

I believe he will do this and it will all backfire. The people are choosing Jon not because he is Ned's son but because he was their leader in the victory over the Boltons.

I don't think LF really wants to be Warden of the North.  I think that is just something he said to Cersei as a cover for his motivations.  I have no clue what his exact end-game is, but really doubt it is Warden of the the North.  House Stark wasn't an overly wealthy house, I would think LF would rather set himself up somewhere in the South where there is much more power/money/prestige than in the North.  But again, no clue what his overall hopes are but they seem to be very grand.  The North has been decimated by war, lost so many men (both for an army and just in general functions of the small folks which bring in money to their lords), can't see that as being much of a "prize" at this point (or ever for most southerners), unless you have a family/honor code you are trying to uphold.

 

Also don't think if they the other lords did find out that Jon is Lyanna's son and not Ned's that it would make a huge difference at that point.  I think they would already be skipping over "normal" process by naming a bastard son as KitN or Lord of Winterfell over a true born daughter.  He would still be a Stark.  Plus again, that would all depend on people believing LF, there is no way that I can think of to prove who Jon's parents are at this point.  Although it may cause some doubt, would think most northerners would trust Ned's word that Jon was his son than LF saying he isn't.

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11 minutes ago, jrod said:

I don't think LF really wants to be Warden of the North.  I think that is just something he said to Cersei as a cover for his motivations.  I have no clue what his exact end-game is, but really doubt it is Warden of the the North. 

I think his goal is to rule the Seven Kingdoms, or leave it in ashes. One of the two. If he can gain control of the North, he now controls 2 of the 7 realms. It is a long game for him. Each realm is a domino that needs to fall.

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17 hours ago, illinifan said:

Yep.  I think being in the same vicinity as Jon makes him suspect something is up.  More importantly if Sansa and Jon work together to deny LF the North, Jon now becomes an obstacle to LF getting what he wants.  LF could bluff the heck out of it.  Jon might say that he doesn't believe it but it could plant enough doubts in his mind to throw him back into emo-Jon mode, which is what LF would want.  LF could also use this information to drag Jon into the Great Game by informing Mad Queen Cersei or Dany about Jon's claim to the Iron Throne.

thats similar to my theory. I think LF will hold his suspicious in check and say nothing but then will go to Dany (I think Cersei is done and done, even if she survives she will not have power, army or inclination to look beyond KL and if she does she'll be worried more about a Certain Queen with 3 YUGE dragons that just came onshore in Dragonstone/Dorne).

When Dany arrives and every noble near her will come and to check her and dragons out, LF will come and say - you heard about that self-proclaimed KofN? Not only he is NOT supporting you and is a rebel, he is your potential rival - male legitimate son of Rhaegar who can get other rebel lords to support him over you!

 

1 hour ago, DireGhost said:

Once Jon is named either KitN or Lord of Winterfell by the other Northern Lords who supported him, Littlefinger will drop this bomb. He will see their proclamation as a threat to his grand plan to become Warden of the North. He will think that by telling everyone that Jon isn't actually Ned's son, but his sister's with Rhaegar, that people will then want to make Sansa the ruler in the North since she is Ned's child. Then he marries Sansa and becomes the Lord.

I believe he will do this and it will all backfire. The people are choosing Jon not because he is Ned's son but because he was their leader in the victory over the Boltons.

I think that LF is smart enough about this. If he is going to spill the beans it will be in private with Sansa (to get her rivalry with Jon going) or to Jon (in order to try to get him more ambitious to move towards Iron Throne). 

LF will not be telling everyone BTW Jon is NOT Bastard son of Ned Stark, he is actually legitimate son of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar, the rightful king of the Westeros? Thats not planting doubts in everyone minds, its actually getting them all gong-ho over Jon and even his chances to take Iron Throne from Lannisters/Tyrells (usurpers) and get far more support that Robb Stark (only Stark) ever gotten in the South.

Edited by Masha

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LF wants Sansa and he wants to be the actual power in Westros either on the Iron Throne or the power behind the Throne.  Controlling the North is part of the strategy. 

And LF uses his new knowledge about Jon's parents to get into Jon's head, get into other people's heads (Cersei and Dany) and manipulate things to where he wants it.  I can see him even using Jon as a puppet to get what he wants.

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I think Jon by being KitN is what will make LF dig out everything about him and finding out about R+L=J and using it to his purpose. Pitch Jon and Daeny against each other. LF would also use it to get what he wants and that is iron throne or by being king of ashes.

Edited by Lord Friendzone

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8 minutes ago, Masha said:

When Dany arrives and every noble near her will come and to check her and dragons out, LF will come and say - you heard about that self-proclaimed KofN? Not only he is NOT supporting you and is a rebel, he is your potential rival - male legitimate son of Rhaegar who can get other rebel lords to support him over you!

The trouble with this is that Dany already has Tyrion and Varys as advisors, both of whom know and greatly distrust Baelish. Plus Tyrion knows and likes Jon. Dany will never take LF's word for it on an issue like this. She and Jon will work it out face to face.

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23 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

I think Jon by being KitN is what will make LF dig out everything about him and finding out about R+L=J and using it to his purpose. Pitch Jon and Daeny against each other. LF would also use it to get what he wants and that is iron throne or by being king of ashes.

How would LF know anything about if Ned wasn't actually Jon's father?  The only person who could say anything if he is Lyanna's son are Howland Reed since he was there at the TOJ or Bran through one of his visions.  Don't think Howland or Bran will be running to tell LF anything.  Unless, again, if there was some midwife or something at the TOJ that has never been mentioned before (which would honestly make sense if Lyanna did just give birth).

Edited by jrod

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19 minutes ago, Rory Snow said:

The trouble with this is that Dany already has Tyrion and Varys as advisors, both of whom know and greatly distrust Baelish. Plus Tyrion knows and likes Jon. Dany will never take LF's word for it on an issue like this. She and Jon will work it out face to face.

Well.  The North is not going to be bending a knee to Dany.  Also Jon will want the dragons used against the White Walkers.  Tyrion and Jon have a history (as well as Tyrion and Sansa) but he might not believe him.  Here is Ned's "son" of all people who does the dishonorable thing of abandoning his post at the NW and making himself king.  And now he is demanding that Dany use her dragons against creatures that do not exist rather than bending a knee.  

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Once again, I think you're putting too much credit on LF knowing the truth about Jon. There are at least two things that goes against it: a) there's no given way he could know that outside of D&D ex machina; and B) he probably actively wants to believe Jon is Ned's bastard, due his love for Cat, as this would put down all his "honor above all" facade. But then again, I'm saying this based mostly on the books. The way the show is leaning towards "resolving everyting the quickest way possible," I wouldn't put it behind a D&D ex machina to actually happen. But even still, I don't see how that could really happen now, or how it could benefit LF. Revealing Jon's not Sansa's brother, for example, could actually make them a match for political marriage, making Jon legitimally lord of Winterfell and King in the North. And we know LF's endgame involve Sansa marrying him, and that passion is actually his biggest weakness.

I'm still leaning towards a small tease of the reveal for the season finale, but things only being really exposed next year.

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23 minutes ago, jrod said:

How would LF know anything about if Ned wasn't actually Jon's father?  The only person who could say anything if he is Lyanna's son are Howland Reed since he was there at the TOJ or Bran through one of his visions.  Don't think Howland or Bran will be running to tell LF anything.  Unless, again, if there was some midwife or something at the TOJ that has never been mentioned before (which would honestly make sense if Lyanna did just give birth).

He knows something and the look he gave to Sansa last season is telling. He can start connecting dots and maybe digging out clues.  Midwife is god bet or someone. LF seems to know everything well besides Ramsey but he underestimated him.

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1 hour ago, illinifan said:

Well.  The North is not going to be bending a knee to Dany.  Also Jon will want the dragons used against the White Walkers.  Tyrion and Jon have a history (as well as Tyrion and Sansa) but he might not believe him.  Here is Ned's "son" of all people who does the dishonorable thing of abandoning his post at the NW and making himself king.  And now he is demanding that Dany use her dragons against creatures that do not exist rather than bending a knee.  

I think you're underestimating Dany's ability to see reason. No reason she can't give the North a deal similar to that of the Iron Islands in exchange for helping to fight the true threat. In the end, Dany has to deal with the WW at some point anyway, why not do it by her nephew's side.

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12 minutes ago, Rory Snow said:

I think you're underestimating Dany's ability to see reason. No reason she can't give the North a deal similar to that of the Iron Islands in exchange for helping to fight the true threat. In the end, Dany has to deal with the WW at some point anyway, why not do it by her nephew's side.

I think that Westros is going to keep fighting each other and ignoring the real threat until it is too late.  LF pulls Jon away from the WWs and gets him involved in the Great Game.  Dany does not believe about the threat and thinks it is a made up fairy tale.

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1 hour ago, Rory Snow said:

I think you're underestimating Dany's ability to see reason. No reason she can't give the North a deal similar to that of the Iron Islands in exchange for helping to fight the true threat. In the end, Dany has to deal with the WW at some point anyway, why not do it by her nephew's side.

Agreed. Her and Jon might not instantly get along but that will change and they will ally themselves together IMO.  She already took Tyrion onto Team Dany and he's part of the family that was/is her biggest enemy in Westeros. Jon is the final piece of Team Dany. 

Edited by boodofmyblood

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7 hours ago, illinifan said:

I think that Westros is going to keep fighting each other and ignoring the real threat until it is too late.  LF pulls Jon away from the WWs and gets him involved in the Great Game.  Dany does not believe about the threat and thinks it is a made up fairy tale.

So the girl with 3 dragons will dismiss her nephew's story as a fairy tale? Again, I think you're underestimating Dany.

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