Tyrion's Tragic End

[Clegane'sPup]

14 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I try not to rely on proofs from the show anymore. And I stopped watching it entirely to avoid spoilers. 

That interview if you watch, Dance is really quite comical. She says she is a second year student of American Studies doing a dissertation of the myth & religion of Game of Thones. There are no spoilers.

 

[Elisabetta Duò]

29 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I try not to rely on proofs from the show anymore. And I stopped watching it entirely to avoid spoilers. 

Oh sorry then (it didn't contain spoilers but I understand you don't watch show stuff)

[ravenous reader]

On 8/18/2016 at 7:05 PM, Elisabetta Duò said:

the prophecy doesn't say that.. it just says she will betrayed 'for love'..which means it might be she will betrayed because the betrayer loves somebody else

Exactly:  Tyrion loves Jaime.  

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion II

That night Tyrion Lannister dreamed of a battle that turned the hills of Westeros as red as blood. He was in the midst of it, dealing death with an axe as big as he was, fighting side by side with Barristan the Bold and Bittersteel as dragons wheeled across the sky above them. In the dream he had two heads, both noseless. His father led the enemy, so he slew him once again. Then he killed his brother, Jaime, hacking at his face until it was a red ruin, laughing every time he struck a blow. Only when the fight was finished did he realize that his second head was weeping.

He's going to surprise himself by choosing 'his second head' as a second thought.

On 8/18/2016 at 9:11 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Daenerys will know her three treasons in the Second Dance of the Dragons: Illyrio for blood, Tyrion for gold, and Aegon for love. 

No.  You're more arrogant, you're more erudite, you're more eloquent than most anyone-- and you're wrong.

17 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Oh, man, I hate to see a great Pun go to waste. So I'm afraid I'm gonna have to suggest that you slightly alter the wording of this part of your post.

 You see the correct grammatical wording here would in fact be,  "but it would make me really sad ...the 'IMPerfect' one has to die so that  the younger and more handsome ones will rule)."

Go one, I bet you can't resist it now that it is right there, such a perfect pun is just screaming out to be used. 

ha ha. Love it!

Tyrion will not die.  Regarding 'IMP'erfection, GRRM has a need to kill the romantic in himself; that is not Tyrion!  It's Jaime.

21 hours ago, Woman of War said:

I do not think that Tyrion will be the betrayal for gold. Tyrion is THE character in the books whose biggest "weaknesses" are his emotionality and his seeking for love. So loving, in which way ever, will play a central role for his character's fate.

He will be Dany's betrayal for love.

Yes.

13 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Tyrion is not going to betray anyone for love of Jaime...

Nope...still off course...

9 hours ago, Elisabetta Duò said:

I am not en english native speaker so I'm not familiar with the term deuteragonist

Don't worry.  Nor am I. He's just showing off!

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

14 hours ago, Elisabetta Duò said:

Sorry for the mistake, my English is not very good I realize. Nice one

Oh, I wasn't seeking to point out your mistake, I just assumed English is not your first language. But I'm afraid I am incapable of allowing such a good pun to slide by without acknowledging it. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

6 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Exactly:  Tyrion loves Jaime.  

He's going to surprise himself by choosing 'his second head' as a second thought.

No.  You're more arrogant, you're more erudite, you're more eloquent than most anyone-- and you're wrong.

ha ha. Love it!

Tyrion will not die.  Regarding 'IMP'erfection, GRRM has a need to kill the romantic in himself; that is not Tyrion!  It's Jaime.

Yes.

Nope...still off course...

Don't worry.  Nor am I. He's just showing off!

I have been called arrogant here and in life. I have never been called erudite. I appreciate being called eloquent. It will feed my arrogance, though. And believe it or not, I appreciate that I could be wrong. I do agree that the author could be setting up a tragic Tyrion-Jaime forgiveness. I don't think that's the way it's going to go, but The George is either keeping us guessing or possibly keeping his options open. 

[Elisabetta Duò]

15 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Your English is nearly flawless. Congratulations. Deuteragonist derives from the Greek deuteragonistes. 

I don't believe anyone can say with 100 percent confidence that dragonblood is necessary for riding a dragon. Rather than trying to read between the lines of cryptic, and often second-hand SSMs, I rely on published text from the forward to The Sworn Sword...

Since I believe that Tyrion is not a dragonlord or a dragonseed, and since I believe that only a dragonlord or a dragonseed can ride a dragon, I cannot conclude that Tyrion will ride a dragon. But I do believe Tyrion will help Brown Ben to ride a dragon. 

And recall Tyrion believes that he might rue the the promises in gold and land he offers to Brown Ben and the Second Sons. That could provide the motivation to betray Daenerys. 

I've also seen what I believe are intentional associations between Ulf the White and Tyrion. If you care to consider them, they are scattered in a few posts on this page

Do you truly think if Ben Brown was a dragon rider, the show would cut him and his storyline off? This actually surprises me, I wouldn't even consider that.

They can change (and have changed) some things, even some 'important' ones .. but to me this is way too important: the ones who will ride the dragons in the books will be the same who will ride the dragons in the show, I'd put my 2 cents on it. 

We'll see who is right!

[Lost Melnibonean]

58 minutes ago, Elisabetta Duò said:

Do you truly think if Ben Brown was a dragon rider, the show would cut him and his storyline off? This actually surprises me, I wouldn't even consider that.

They can change (and have changed) some things, even some 'important' ones .. but to me this is way too important: the ones who will ride the dragons in the books will be the same who will ride the dragons in the show, I'd put my 2 cents on it. 

We'll see who is right!

Do you believe there will only be three dragonriders?

[ravenous reader]

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I have been called arrogant here and in life. I have never been called erudite. I appreciate being called eloquent. It will feed my arrogance, though.

Touché!  I forgot to add:  you're also one of the most witty!

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

And believe it or not, I appreciate that I could be wrong. I do agree that the author could be setting up a tragic Tyrion-Jaime forgiveness. I don't think that's the way it's going to go, but The George is either keeping us guessing or possibly keeping his options open.

Nor am I convinced of the love-for-Jaime betrayal.  However, I do take exception to the idea of Aegon being the betrayal for love.  Being a more casual reader of the saga than you, I'm less wrapped up in the symbolism of Aegon and the other more minor characters, so perhaps I can ironically see more clearly than those of you who are 'more erudite' that he's simply not a well-enough developed character -- in fact he's rather shallow and poorly written (I found those passages tedious to read, quite honestly).  Because he's such a blatantly obvious 'red herring' (I think you've previously argued as much quite convincingly yourself) in whom neither GRRM, nor the audience, nor Dany is likely to have sufficient emotional investment for the dramatic payoff the 'cashing-in' of such a prophecy demands, I tend to rule him out.  When all is said and done, I predict we'll appreciate in retrospect that Sansa had a deeper, more lyrical relationship to Ser Dontos than anyone will ever have to Aegon!

[Lost Melnibonean]

22 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Nor am I convinced of the love-for-Jaime betrayal.  However, I do take exception to the idea of Aegon being the betrayal for love.  Being a more casual reader of the saga than you, I'm less wrapped up in the symbolism of Aegon and the other more minor characters, so perhaps I can ironically see more clearly than those of you who are 'more erudite' that he's simply not a well-enough developed character -- in fact he's rather shallow and poorly written (I found those passages tedious to read, quite honestly).  Because he's such a blatantly obvious 'red herring' (I think you've previously argued as much quite convincingly yourself) in whom neither GRRM, nor the audience, nor Dany is likely to have sufficient emotional investment for the dramatic payoff the 'cashing-in' of such a prophecy demands, I tend to rule him out.  When all is said and done, I predict we'll appreciate in retrospect that Sansa had a deeper, more lyrical relationship to Ser Dontos than anyone will ever have to Aegon!

As you say, Aegon is nothing more than the mummer's dragon, a cloth dragon on poles that The George has given to us for Daenerys to fight. But as Tyrion suggested, I believe Daenerys will come to he nephew's aid in some dire moment, and I believe he will prove his worthiness (ironically, given he's descended from The Unworthy) to her by claiming Rhaegal. Whether she falls for him or not, I think they will wed, or at least negotiate a marraige, but he will betray her for Arianne. 

[Elisabetta Duò]

On 20 agosto 2016 at 2:52 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Do you believe there will only be three dragonriders?

Yes I do.

At the most I could think of somebody riding one dragon, dying and then be replaced... but honestly, I think there will be just 3 riders, 2 Targs and 1 not-Targ, being Daenerys (the Heart in the dragon-eggs very important AGOT symbolism, hence riding Drogon), Tyrion (the Head in the same symbolism, hence riding Rhaegal) and Jon (the Sword in the same symbolism, hence riding Viserion).

Tyrion is one of the candidates to be the betrayal for love. If it's not him, then it might be Jon or whoever else, too many possibilities.

[Lost Melnibonean]

7 minutes ago, Elisabetta Duò said:

Yes I do.

At the most I could think of somebody riding one dragon, dying and then be replaced... but honestly, I think there will be just 3 riders, 2 Targs and 1 not-Targ, being Daenerys (the Heart in the dragon-eggs very important symbolism in AGOT, hence riding Drogon), Tyrion (the Head in the same symbolism, hence riding Rhaegal) and Jon (the Sword in the same symbolism, hence riding Viserion).

Oh man, I am thinking that Daenerys's vision in the House of the Undying Ones has a hint for the reader, and for Daenerys, to look for two more Targaryens. Since Rhaegar was looking at her when he said the would be three, she was the first. Since Aegon was the next to be revealed, he is the second (Black or red, a dragon is still a dragon.) And since R+L=J, Jon Snow will be the third. 

I believe all three of them will ride a dragon. Daenerys, and later Jon, will ride the big black one, Aegon will ride the green one against the black one in an echo of The Dance of the Dragons between the blacks and the greens. And Brown Ben Plumm will ride the white one. I would not rule out other riders. 

[Elisabetta Duò]

46 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Oh man, I am thinking that Daenerys's vision in the House of the Undying Ones has a hint for the reader, and for Daenerys, to look for two more Targaryens. Since Rhaegar was looking at her when he said the would be three, she was the first. Since Aegon was the next to be revealed, he is the second (Black or red, a dragon is still a dragon.) And since R+L=J, Jon Snow will be the third. 

I believe all three of them will ride a dragon. Daenerys, and later Jon, will ride the big black one, Aegon will ride the green one against the black one in an echo of The Dance of the Dragons between the blacks and the greens. And Brown Ben Plumm will ride the white one. I would not rule out other riders. 

As I said in other posts, I base myself on this other passage instead:

She climbed the pyre herself to place the eggs around her sun-and-stars. The black beside his heart under his arm. The green beside his head, his braid coiled around it. The cream-and-gold down between his legs.

=> Then we have: 

the egg beside Drogo's Heart (Drogon) => love, heart, affection  => Daenerys

the egg beside Drogo's Head (Raehgal) => rationality / knowledge / wisdom => Tyrion

the egg between Drogo's legs = (Viserion) => sword (potentially sex?) => Jon

So the people emboding the Heart, the Head and the Sword will be the dragon riders.

Granted that Daenerys already rides Drogon (and he was Drogo's wife), I think it's quite safe to assume Tyrion fits the Head symbolism and Jon the Sword one (even if we assumed Tyrion, who clearly doesn't represent the sword, might represent sex and therefore ride VIserion all the same, we would be obliged to riconsider, because Jon could never fit the head/rationality/knowledge symbolism, so the solution doesn't work (we could think fAegon would be the Sword, but if he were, the show wouldn't cut off his storyline ... that's just basic common sense imo. The show and the books may differ, but in my perspective they wouldn't go different ways when it comes to something as important as the three dragon riders, especially given that the ending will be the same).

In fact, in S6, there are hints confirming this.

Spoiler

In 6x02, Tyrion first frees/bond with Raeghal when he goes for the dragons

In 6x10, Tyrion has been named Hand of the Queen by Daenerys, so that his role as 'man of  reason', as Head besides her (whose impulsive behavior embodies the Heart) has become official.

So far we have, then:

- Daenerys actually rides Drogon, the egg near Drogo's Heart and she clearly embodies, with her impulsive behavior as shown in the show (and in the books), the Heart (1/3 of the AGOT symbolism)

- Tyrion embodies the rational/wise/cultured advisor besides her, exactly as the person who rides Raeghal should embody the Head, according to that AGOT paragraph... and he bonded with Raeghal first in 6x02 (in the books we don't have this scene): it seems, then, that in the show he is meant to ride Raeghal (2/3 of the AGOT symbolism);

-  both Tyrion and Daenerys hint at her future military allegiances and at a possible political marriage / love interest (she while talking with Daario, he when he tells her Daario 'won't be the last'): Jon, being a soldier, a warrior and King in the North, is clearly apt to fit the Sword symbolism and, in theory - if they want to get there / if GRRM meant it that way also - even the sexual part of the symbolism (3/3 of the AGOT symbolism). 

We have even that part, in the 6x10 dialogue, where Tyrion says that he'd offer her his sword, but he doesn't own one (methaporically meaning that he is not fit / not meant to be the Sword) and she dismisses it saying 'it's your counsel I need' (= you embody the Head, not the Sword)

Daenerys, the Heart, has her Head: she needs her Sword now. 

It doesn't matter that in the books we didn't have the 6x02 scene: I don't think the books and the show would go separate ways about a thing as important as this one: whoever rides - physically or methaporically - Raeghal in the show, will likely ride it in the books also. Therefore, if the show goes like Tyrion=>Raeghal (as 6x02 and 6x10 may suggest), I guess it is because D&D know that in the books it will be the same.

In this perspective, we should consider that Viserion is usually referred as the 'white' dragon (as Jon owns the white dire wolf). And we should consider that Raeghar was a valiant knight, tall and melancholic (Jon's traits) but he was also very bookish - to the point he was mocked about it in his youth - and very intelligent and underneath the plate he wore a golden ringmail (Tyrion's traits). This might explain why who rides Raeghal has to embody the 'Head' and not the 'Sword', even if he's named after a valiant warrior. The fact Jon is Rhaegar's son doesn't automatically make Rhaegal his dragon, because Jon doesn't fit the Head symbolism.).

Finally (weakest point of all), Rhaegal is described as a combination of opposites: "Rhaegal was made of the green of summer and the bronze of fall". Tyron has got mismatched eyes (green and black) and his haird and beard are half blond, half black.

GRRM said not all the heads/ dragon riders must be Targs and hinted that one won't be. So it's possible that  there are Targs who will never ride a dragon... maybe because they die before they can ride any dragon,  or maybe they aren't truly 'Targs' from the right branch if Aegon is fAegon, maybe for other reasons.

It will be interesting to see if you are right or if I am and why / to what point ... sadly we've got to wait (at least until the show - the ones who watch it -  possibly more).

[Hamfast42]

Woah! Just stumbled on this page.  I wrote up something similar last year on reddit and called it "The quiet lion." Very cool that we came to the same conclusion independently!  https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/3kwgmi/spoilers_all_the_quiet_lion/

I think that Tyrion losing a tongue would lead to a very strong arc with Jaime who has been hanging out in the riverlands with Illyn Payne.  And I think it opens up the "Tyrion writing the history book" as a potential bittersweet end-game.

[ThePrinceThatKnewNothing]

I was finishing my reread of ADwD last night and had a similar thought. I hope it doesn't happen though