Tyrion's Tragic End

[Jon's Queen Consort]

nevermind wrong post

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

It'll probably be Dany who orders his tongue to be torn out after he makes some indescribably lewd joke at her expense.

There's an embarrassed silence in Court.  Then Dany starts to clap, slowly (other courtiers begin to laugh nervously).  "Tell me Lord Tyrion, would you prefer to live without your tongue, or without your cock?"  "Well, a man needs his cock!"  "Very well then, tongue it is."

This made me genuinely laugh out loud. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 6/21/2016 at 7:06 PM, Elisabetta Duò said:

I'm inclined to think you're wrong.

I think those quotes and other similar ones are meant not like 'you're gonna lose your tongue' but like 'your mouth will be the end of you' (that's basically what Tywin and Varys told him more than once) so I'm inclined to think either:

- he's going to die, because he couldn't keep his mouth shut at the right moment (that's one of the reasons why some people think he will develop belated greyscale, which will kill him from inside out: when he swallows black water, potentially getting greyscale, it happens like that: "when he opened his mouth to curse them all, black water filled his lungs, and the dark closed in around him"; back in ACOK, he had a dream where he was experiecing something similat to what happens to people who suffer from greyscale "He would have asked one of the silent sisters, but when he tried to speak he found he had no mouth. Smooth seamless skin covered his teeth. The discovery terrified him. How could he live without a mouth? He began to run. The city was not far. He would be safe inside the city, away from all these dead. He did not belong with the dead. He had no mouth, but he was still a living man. No, a lion, a lion, and alive. But when he reached the city walls, the gates were shut against him";it was the bandages all over his face and mouth that made him feel like that, but some people thought it could be foreshadowing as well): be it greyscale, angering somebody who will kill him, drinking poison or whatever, it's possible his mouth will in fact be his end;

- he's going to survive (tongue included), because the 'threats' / references were specifically set by GRRM in order to keep us wondering and/or be worried about his fate (it depends whether one would like for him to survive or not); after all, one of the main literary inspirations for Tyrion as a character is Odysseus, who often found himself in deep trouble because of his sharp mouth/tongue, who was at times reminded he had better to keep it under control and who in the end survived and even got his wife back, despite half the realm wanted to marry her.. because Odysseus was a very lucky man and survived a lot of deathly situations, because he managed to outwit his opponents and because he (kinda...) kept his mouth under control. 

Both of the theories have ground and might prove to be correct, only time will tell.

This, or maybe something like this...

Quote

Tyrion Lannister looked up from his books and shivered, though the library was snug and warm. Something about the howling of a wolf took a man right out of his here and now and left him in a dark forest of the mind, running naked before the pack.

Tyrion I, Game 9

I suspect that The Second Dance of the Dragons will culminate at the Trident as armies led by Daenerys, Stannis, and Aegon meet. I expect Drogon the winged shadow will burn Stannis, and all his power will join Daenerys. But I also expect that Tyrion will betray Daenerys with Brown Ben and Viserion for Aegon's side. I could see Tyrion later wishing he hadn't alone in the woods. I could then see Nymeria picking up his sent.

 

 

 

[Clegane'sPup]

On 8/15/2016 at 10:01 AM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I don't think anyone but me gets to decide how I feel about me

I agree.

On 8/15/2016 at 10:01 AM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I am towards those who hurt me, quite nasty, I am a pretty vengeful person.

Are you suggesting that it okay for you to get loud and rowdy but others may not? You are after all the person who named another person's OP a piss take.

Wishing you well with your move. Until you get them books unpacked you can use https://asearchoficeandfire.com/

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

13 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I agree.

Are you suggesting that it okay for you to get loud and rowdy but others may not? You are after all the person who named another person's OP a piss take.

Wishing you well with your move. Until you get them books unpacked you can use https://asearchoficeandfire.com/

Oh, anyone can get loud and rowdy. I don't own that behaviour.  

I think a good example of vengefulness in the series is Arya. A lot of people are really uncomfortable with the level of hatred she is harbouring, and the fact she is killing people who have harmed her or her family.  Where as I am totally on board with that. I'd hold her coat whilst she slit someones throat.  And I don't believe you have to practice forgivness or turn the other cheek in real life either.  Just to bring it back on topic, I think Tyrion's murder of Symon Silvertongue and subsequent desecration of his body by feeding him to unsuspecting townsfolk goes beyond the sort of action I support for Arya. Those people she is wanting vengeance against truly deserve it, either through having directly taken her family, her security and placed her in mortal danger. Or through the fact they are torturers, and monstrous in the most heinous degree.  Tyrion was only threatened with blackmail, and he went too far in having the singer fed to the citizens of KL.  He made those citizens unwitting cannibals by doing that, even though we know that everyone knows there may be a bit of human in that pot of brown. I still think that was too gross an act of vengeance.  It's not as if Tyrion didn't have the ability to just have the guys throat slit down an ally and made to look like a robbery. 

I guess this is where we all exercise our own moral code. I feel that the actions of Tyrion in this regard went beyond what the opportunist singer deserved. And that he brought other people unwittingly into his gross revenge without any care or consideration for them. I think though this kinda represents pre trial Tyrion who doesn't consider others at all, and that possibly the Tyrion who comes out the other side of his malaise would not act in such a manor. He didn't even have to have the man killed he could have just cut his tongue out, and sent him to the wall. claiming some other crime. After all he can't deny it, as he would be dumb.  But my feelings about say someone on Arya's list directly involved in the death of Ned and Cat & Robb etc. Well I'd totally support her killing them. Just so long as she didn't feed their remains to innocent citizens that is. 

I genuinely was asking re that OP. I in all honestly could not tell if it was a piss take or serious. No joke. 

 

Thanks, 9 days to go, and I'm starting to get a bit jittery, worrying I may have forgotten something!  Thanks, I have been using ASOIAF but I don't seem to get on very well with it.  It all comes down to what words you type in and I guess I'm a bit crap at remembering specific words and phrases. I'm rubbing along with it ok. But it tends to take me a long while to find what I'm looking for. 

[Elisabetta Duò]

On 15 agosto 2016 at 8:02 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

This, or maybe something like this...

Tyrion Lannister looked up from his books and shivered, though the library was snug and warm. Something about the howling of a wolf took a man right out of his here and now and left him in a dark forest of the mind, running naked before the pack.

Tyrion I, Game 9

I suspect that The Second Dance of the Dragons will culminate at the Trident as armies led by Daenerys, Stannis, and Aegon meet. I expect Drogon the winged shadow will burn Stannis, and all his power will join Daenerys. But I also expect that Tyrion will betray Daenerys with Brown Ben and Viserion for Aegon's side. I could see Tyrion later wishing he hadn't alone in the woods. I could then see Nymeria picking up his sent.

 

 

 

We're going slightly off topic so I'll try to keep it short  

Since I re-read that Tyrion I passage in AGOT, I wondered if it was foreshadowing of his own future (as you said) or if it was Tyrion somehow foreshadowing the whole warging phenomenon before we, as readers, were told about it: "Tyrion Lannister looked up from his books and shivered, though the library was snug and warm. Something about the howling of a wolf took a man right OUT OF HIS HERE AND NOW and left him in a dark forest OF THE MIND, running naked before the pack."

=> Arya, Brandon and Jon, when they warg, leave their 'here and now' and, in their minds, run naked as wolves, often interacting with the pack: we didn't know what at the beginning of AGOT, so Tyrion, who especially at the beginning, was the character we were experiencing the whole adventure through, foreshadowed this phenomenon. 

Maybe it's just me tho.. Tyrion is my fave character and maybe I'm making up excuses to 'not believe' he will die (I wouldn't rule out that GRRM killed him for shock factor / achieving that kind of result JKR got killing Snape, but it would make me really sad ...the 'imperfect' one has to die so that  the younger and more handsome ones will rule).

Or maybe it's both foreshadowing of warging itself as a phenomenon and of Tyrion's future (as you pointed out, Nymeria is often described as running "before the pack". 

I'm not sure I see the Daenerys/Stannis/Aegon thing and I don't see Tyrion riding VIserion (I think he will ride Rhaegal.. if you're interested, there's why: 

but the second part of your idea might make sense and it pairs up with this also (I quoted part of it above) .. it's about Blackwater but House Toyne is extinct, so I wondered about the 'black hearts' (there were no dead Toynes at Blackwater) and if it might be an indirect reference to the Golden Company and to the fact that the same events will happen in the future which would shed a different light to Tyrion's dream: "So many dead, so very many. Their corpses hung limply, their faces slack or stiff or swollen with gas, unrecognizable, hardly human. The garments the sisters took from them were decorated with black hearts, grey lions, dead flowers, and pale ghostly stags. Their armor was all dented and gashed, the chainmail riven, broken, slashed. Why did I kill them all? He had known once, but somehow he had forgotten.He would have asked one of the silent sisters, but when he tried to speak he found he had no mouth. Smooth seamless skin covered his teeth. The discovery terrified him. How could he live without a mouth? He began to run. The city was not far. He would be safe inside the city, away from all these dead. He did not belong with the dead. He had no mouth, but he was still a living man. No, a lion, a lion, and alive. But when he reached the city walls, the gates were shut against him" => Tyrion regretting his choices, running in the woods, trying to reach the city, then Nymeria possibly killing him.

I'm 99% convinced that this AGOT paragraph will be significant, I'm just not sure HOW, but it means something sad/bad/dreadful and we don't know if he will be able to get out of it.

I also agree that Tyrion might betray Daenerys and be the lion she was told not to trust, unless lion was meant as a general for Lannisters, of course, especially if Cersei becomes Queen in the books too  (No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal.").

Most people assume Mirri and Jorah were the betrayals for blood and for gold and the betrayal for love will be about somebody loving Daenerys and betraying her because it's unrequited or whatever. Actually, tho, the prophecy doesn't say that.. it just says she will betrayed 'for love'..which means it might be she will betrayed because the betrayer loves somebody else. In this perspective, Tyrion might betray her and align himself with the Starks, because of Sansa. Or he might betray her to align himself with Aegon, but then it wouldn't be 'for love' so we should assume it's either 'for gold' or 'for blood' hence one amongst Mirri/Jorah weren't Daenery's betrayals.

[Arya_Stupid!]

On August 13, 2016 at 9:31 PM, Lord Wraith said:

Perhaps but Tyrion has talked his way out of trouble many times. I have yet to see him fuck his way out  of any situation.

 

This made me laugh. It's completely true though.

I think that Tyrion's wit and cunning is the ONLY thing that he has ever been recognized for in a good way by anyone else, and therefore it becomes a key part of his internal identity. If he cannot be loved and admired for his outer appearance, he will make up for it with intelligence. 

If he loses the ability to share his 'wisdoms' with the world at large...  I think it might break him. Either that or he will become a scholar and write new true histories.

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Elisabetta Duò said:

We're going slightly off topic so I'll try to keep it short  

Since I re-read that Tyrion I passage in AGOT, I wondered if it was foreshadowing of his own future (as you said) or if it was Tyrion somehow foreshadowing the whole warging phenomenon before we, as readers, were told about it: "Tyrion Lannister looked up from his books and shivered, though the library was snug and warm. Something about the howling of a wolf took a man right OUT OF HIS HERE AND NOW and left him in a dark forest OF THE MIND, running naked before the pack."

=> Arya, Brandon and Jon, when they warg, leave their 'here and now' and, in their minds, run naked as wolves, often interacting with the pack: we didn't know what at the beginning of AGOT, so Tyrion, who especially at the beginning, was the character we were experiencing the whole adventure through, foreshadowed this phenomenon. 

Maybe it's just me tho.. Tyrion is my fave character and maybe I'm making up excuses to 'not believe' he will die (I wouldn't rule out that GRRM killed him for shock factor / achieving that kind of result JKR got killing Snape, but it would make me really sad ...the 'unperfect' one has to die so that  the younger and more handsome ones will rule).

Or maybe it's both foreshadowing of warging itself as a phenomenon and of Tyrion's future (as you pointed out, Nymeria is often described as running "before the pack". 

I'm not sure I see the Daenerys/Stannis/Aegon thing and I don't see Tyrion riding VIserion (I think he will ride Rhaegal.. if you're interested, there's why: 

but the second part of your idea might make sense and pair up with this also (I quoted part of it above) .. it's about Blackwater but House Toyne is extinct, so I wondered about the 'black heart' (there wee not Toyne dead fighter at Blackwater) and if it might be an indirect reference to the Golden Company and to the fact that the same events will happen in the future which would shed a different light to Tyrion's dream: "So many dead, so very many. Their corpses hung limply, their faces slack or stiff or swollen with gas, unrecognizable, hardly human. The garments the sisters took from them were decorated with black hearts, grey lions, dead flowers, and pale ghostly stags. Their armor was all dented and gashed, the chainmail riven, broken, slashed. Why did I kill them all? He had known once, but somehow he had forgotten.He would have asked one of the silent sisters, but when he tried to speak he found he had no mouth. Smooth seamless skin covered his teeth. The discovery terrified him. How could he live without a mouth? He began to run. The city was not far. He would be safe inside the city, away from all these dead. He did not belong with the dead. He had no mouth, but he was still a living man. No, a lion, a lion, and alive. But when he reached the city walls, the gates were shut against him" => Tyrion regretting his choices, running in the woods, trying to reach the city, then Nymeria possibly killing him.

I'm 99% convinced that this AGOT paragraph will be significant, I'm just not sure HOW, but it means something sad/bad/dreadful and we don't know if he will be able to get out of it.

I also agree that Tyrion might betray Daenerys and be the lion she was told not to trust, unless lion was meant as a general for Lannisters, of course, especially if Cersei becomes Queen in the books too  (No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal.").

Most people assume Mirri and Jorah were the betrayals for blood and for gold and the betrayal for love will be about somebody loving Daenerys and betraying her because it's unrequited or whatever. Actually, tho, the prophecy doesn't say that.. it just says she will betrayed 'for love'..which means it might be she will betrayed because the betrayer loves somebody else. In this perspective, Tyrion might betray her and align himself with the Starks, because of Sansa. Or he might betray her to align himself with Aegon, but then it wouldn't be 'for love' so we should assume it's either 'for gold' or 'for blood' hence one amongst Mirri/Jorah weren't Daenery's betrayals.

The only way I see Tyrion surviving to the end is if this is a heroic story about three dragon riders that join forces to conquer evil. But I don't think that's what The George is writing here. 

I don't  believe Tyrion will ride a dragon unless a buddy gives him a ride on the back. I think Targaryen blood (or noble blood from old Valyria) is a requirement, and I am not convinced that Tyrion is Aerys’s bastard. 

Tyrion is like the deuteragonist of a classical play. The deuteragonist would bounce between the protagonist, Daenerys in this Second Dance of the Dragons, and the antagonist, Aegon. The key for me is his heterochromia of the eyes. 

Daenerys will know her three treasons in the Second Dance of the Dragons: Illyrio for blood, Tyrion for gold, and Aegon for love. 

[Woman of War]

@Elisabetta Duò

"Maybe it's just me tho.. Tyrion is my fave character and maybe I'm making up excuses to 'not believe' he will die (I wouldn't rule out that GRRM killed him for shock factor / achieving that kind of result JKR got killing Snape, but it would make me really sad ...the 'unperfect' one has to die so that  the younger and more handsome ones will rule)."

No, it's not just you, I feel the same way. The dwarf as character who supports the hero or the heroine instead of being himself the, if only secret, hero in the end .......... No, please no, not again, this has been written a hundred times!

@Lost Melnibonean

I do not think that Tyrion will be the betrayal for gold. Tyrion is THE character in the books whose biggest "weaknesses" are his emotionality and his seeking for love. So loving, in which way ever, will play a central role for his character's fate.

He will be Dany's betrayal for love. There are several possibilities though:

- He may have to protect Dany from herself and from the consequences of some terrible decision by acting directly against her orders or by giving informations to the enemy. A scenario where Tyrion loves Dany, either romantically or as brother.

- Tyrion may betray Dany in order to protect someone else he loves, Jaime maybe or Sansa. Tysha would be a candidate as well, if there were a possibility that she might ever appear in the story, which for good reasons - avoiding spoilers - I do not believe.

Betrayal for gold - I think both Tyrion and Dany will grow beyond wanting most of all what they started out to desire on the surface. Dany the powerless wanted power via the IT and Tyrion the despised wanted dignity and recognition via Casterly Rock and its gold. If these two characters survive at all they might get their superficial wishes granted - only they may have grown beyond craving them by then.

.......or Dany will find her house with the red door and Tyrion will write the History of Westeros and Essos in some remote library.

 

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

11 hours ago, Elisabetta Duò said:

 

Maybe it's just me tho.. Tyrion is my fave character and maybe I'm making up excuses to 'not believe' he will die (I wouldn't rule out that GRRM killed him for shock factor / achieving that kind of result JKR got killing Snape, but it would make me really sad ...the 'unperfect' one has to die so that  the younger and more handsome ones will rule).

Oh, man, I hate to see a great Pun go to waste. So I'm afraid I'm gonna have to suggest that you slightly alter the wording of this part of your post.

 You see the correct grammatical wording here would in fact be,  "but it would make me really sad ...the 'IMPerfect' one has to die so that  the younger and more handsome ones will rule)."

Go one, I bet you can't resist it now that it is right there, such a perfect pun is just screaming out to be used. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

7 hours ago, Woman of War said:

@Elisabetta Duò

"Maybe it's just me tho.. Tyrion is my fave character and maybe I'm making up excuses to 'not believe' he will die (I wouldn't rule out that GRRM killed him for shock factor / achieving that kind of result JKR got killing Snape, but it would make me really sad ...the 'unperfect' one has to die so that  the younger and more handsome ones will rule)."

No, it's not just you, I feel the same way. The dwarf as character who supports the hero or the heroine instead of being himself the, if only secret, hero in the end .......... No, please no, not again, this has been written a hundred times!

@Lost Melnibonean

I do not think that Tyrion will be the betrayal for gold. Tyrion is THE character in the books whose biggest "weaknesses" are his emotionality and his seeking for love. So loving, in which way ever, will play a central role for his character's fate.

He will be Dany's betrayal for love. There are several possibilities though:

- He may have to protect Dany from herself and from the consequences of some terrible decision by acting directly against her orders or by giving informations to the enemy. A scenario where Tyrion loves Dany, either romantically or as brother.

- Tyrion may betray Dany in order to protect someone else he loves, Jaime maybe or Sansa. Tysha would be a candidate as well, if there were a possibility that she might ever appear in the story, which for good reasons - avoiding spoilers - I do not believe.

Betrayal for gold - I think both Tyrion and Dany will grow beyond wanting most of all what they started out to desire on the surface. Dany the powerless wanted power via the IT and Tyrion the despised wanted dignity and recognition via Casterly Rock and its gold. If these two characters survive at all they might get their superficial wishes granted - only they may have grown beyond craving them by then.

.......or Dany will find her house with the red door and Tyrion will write the History of Westeros and Essos in some remote library.

 

 

Tyrion is not going to betray anyone for love of Jaime...

"Tell me," Tyrion said again.

Quote

 

His brother looked away. "Tysha," he said softly.

"Tysha?" His stomach tightened. "What of her?"

"She was no whore. I never bought her for you. That was a lie that Father commanded me to tell. Tysha was . . . she was what she seemed to be. A crofter's daughter, chance met on the road."

Tyrion could hear the faint sound of his own breath whistling hollowly through the scar of his nose. Jaime could not meet his eyes. Tysha. He tried to remember what she had looked like. A girl, she was only a girl, no older than Sansa. "My wife," he croaked. "She wed me."

"For your gold, Father said. She was lowborn, you were a Lannister of Casterly Rock. All she wanted was the gold, which made her no different from a whore, so . . . so it would not be a lie, not truly, and . . . he said that you required a sharp lesson. That you would learn from it, and thank me later . . . "

"Thank you?" Tyrion's voice was choked. "He gave her to his guards. A barracks full of guards. He made me . . . watch." Aye, and more than watch. I took her too . . . my wife . . .

"I never knew he would do that. You must believe me."

"Oh, must I?" Tyrion snarled. "Why should I believe you about anything, ever? She was my wife!"

"Tyrion—"

He hit him. It was a slap, backhanded, but he put all his strength into it, all his fear, all his rage, all his pain. Jaime was squatting, unbalanced. The blow sent him tumbling backward to the floor. "I . . . I suppose I earned that."

"Oh, you've earned more than that, Jaime. You and my sweet sister and our loving father, yes, I can't begin to tell you what you've earned. But you'll have it, that I swear to you. A Lannister always pays his debts."

 

Tyrion XI, Storm 77

And if he ever learns where whores go, and I expect he shall, finding out that his family turned his wife and his daughter into whores will knock Tyrion over and into the abyss.

[Elisabetta Duò]

17 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I don't  believe Tyrion will ride a dragon unless a buddy gives him a ride on the back. I think Targaryen blood (or noble blood from old Valyria) is a requirement, and I am not convinced that Tyrion is Aerys’s bastard. 

Tyrion is like the deuteragonist of a classical play. The deuteragonist would bounce between the protagonist, Daenerys in this Second Dance of the Dragons, and the antagonist, Aegon. The key for me is his heterochromia of the eyes. 

Daenerys will know her three treasons in the Second Dance of the Dragons: Illyrio for blood, Tyrion for gold, and Aegon for love.

I don't believe he is a Targaryen either, but GRRM said you don't have to be a Targ to ride a dragon (he didn't specify if blood is a requirement, not to what extent - if you go back in time, it's almost impossible to not have some commection with the targs or with their ancestors), he hinted things like 'oh, if Tyrion could fly, what mischief he would make...' in interviews since 1996 and Tyrion clearly has a connection with dragons (dragon dreams, knowing all kind of stuff about dragons, filling the requirements for the 2nd head, in the show the dragons didn't roast him, etc.).

I assumed you thought he would ride Viserion because you wrote "I also expect that Tyrion will betray Daenerys with Brown Ben and Viserion for Aegon's side".

I am not en english native speaker so I'm not familiar with the term deuteragonist, but considering his role throughout the series, I would probably just call him 'antihero' (even if I get the meaning is slightly different). I don't think there are cut out roles like Daenerys= protagonist / Aegon = antagonist.

That's your assumption, maybe you're right but personally I would find it a little bit 'clichè' if all the betrayals happened the last books, at the 'clou' of the story... but if it's true.. what about the past betrayals? the prophecy didn't say you'll be betrayed 'Xtimes + 3 times when you fight for your kindgom' it said just 'three times'.. and we could discuss about Mirri, but I don't think there's any way to deny that Jorah betrayed her... he in fact did.

 

[Elisabetta Duò]

8 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Oh, man, I hate to see a great Pun go to waste. So I'm afraid I'm gonna have to suggest that you slightly alter the wording of this part of your post.

 You see the correct grammatical wording here would in fact be,  "but it would make me really sad ...the 'IMPerfect' one has to die so that  the younger and more handsome ones will rule)."

Go one, I bet you can't resist it now that it is right there, such a perfect pun is just screaming out to be used. 

Sorry for the mistake, my English is not very good I realize. Nice one

[Elisabetta Duò]

On 19 agosto 2016 at 9:42 AM, Woman of War said:

No, it's not just you, I feel the same way. The dwarf as character who supports the hero or the heroine instead of being himself the, if only secret, hero in the end .......... No, please no, not again, this has been written a hundred times!

I totally wholeheartedly agree with you but apparently GRRM paid attention to the debate some characters generated (maybe he mentioned Gollum? or was it Saruman? I don't remember) and I think somewhere he said he would like to get the same result... and I guess the only 'grey' character able to make him achieve that level of debate would be Tyrion. I just hope he will decide to make him survive, that he won't push it that far, I hope he doesn't make him die as the revengeful villain oathbreaker or the sad antihero... but the possibility do exists (because of some very dark 'clues' surrounding him.. I hope he won't use them in the end or he will change their meaning).

It's no secret I would like for him to be reunited with his wife and cooperate to rebuild Westeros aka to guide the transition to the 'new era' making good use of his political and diplomatical skills, of his pragmatism temperated by compassion and open-mindeness ("thanks" to what he experenced being a dwarf despised by people), of the lessons he learnt the hard way while living in disguise, experience that helped him / will helps him attenuate his pride and his being a spoiled super rich man, I think ... and hopefully to elaborate his tragedy. I expect him to have very 'dark' thoughts for at least half TWoW, but I think it would be a waste of his potential if GRRM had him go donwhill or make that one mistake/betrayial that he will regret all his life, before he dies in some pitiful (positive or negative) way.

I agree about Tyrion possibly being the betrayer for love, maybe betraying her for Sansa or Jamie (not saying he's the only candidate, of course, for all we know if could be Jon to save one of his sisters of whatever, but she was told not to trust the lion.. so unless it's a general for Lannisters or unless Jamie pretends to turn his cloack and align himself with Tyrion and her and then betrays her, it should reasonably be Tyrion).

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Elisabetta Duò said:

I don't believe he is a Targaryen either, but GRRM said you don't have to be a Targ to ride a dragon (he didn't specify if blood is a requirement, not to what extent - if you go back in time, it's almost impossible to not have some commection with the targs or with their ancestors), he hinted things like 'oh, if Tyrion could fly, what mischief he would make...' in interviews since 1996 and Tyrion clearly has a connection with dragons (dragon dreams, knowing all kind of stuff about dragons, filling the requirements for the 2nd head, in the show the dragons didn't roast him, etc.).

I assumed you thought he would ride Viserion because you wrote "I also expect that Tyrion will betray Daenerys with Brown Ben and Viserion for Aegon's side".

I am not en english native speaker so I'm not familiar with the term deuteragonist, but considering his role throughout the series, I would probably just call him 'antihero' (even if I get the meaning is slightly different). I don't think there are cut out roles like Daenerys= protagonist / Aegon = antagonist.

That's your assumption, maybe you're right but personally I would find it a little bit 'clichè' if all the betrayals happened the last books, at the 'clou' of the story... but if it's true.. what about the past betrayals? the prophecy didn't say you'll be betrayed 'Xtimes + 3 times when you fight for your kindgom' it said just 'three times'.. and we could discuss about Mirri, but I don't think there's any way to deny that Jorah betrayed her... he in fact did.

 

Your English is nearly flawless. Congratulations. Deuteragonist derives from the Greek deuteragonistes. 

I don't believe anyone can say with 100 percent confidence that dragonblood is necessary for riding a dragon. Rather than trying to read between the lines of cryptic, and often second-hand SSMs, I rely on published text from the forward to The Sworn Sword...

Quote

The lords freeholder of Valyria ruled the greater part of the known world; they were sorcerers, great in lore, and alone of all the races of man they had learned to breed dragons and bend them to their will.

Since I believe that Tyrion is not a dragonlord or a dragonseed, and since I believe that only a dragonlord or a dragonseed can ride a dragon, I cannot conclude that Tyrion will ride a dragon. But I do believe Tyrion will help Brown Ben to ride a dragon. 

And recall Tyrion believes that he might rue the the promises in gold and land he offers to Brown Ben and the Second Sons. That could provide the motivation to betray Daenerys. 

I've also seen what I believe are intentional associations between Ulf the White and Tyrion. If you care to consider them, they are scattered in a few posts on this page

[Elisabetta Duò]

4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Tyrion is not going to betray anyone for love of Jaime...

"Tell me," Tyrion said again.

Tyrion XI, Storm 77

And if he ever learns where whores go, and I expect he shall, finding out that his family turned his wife and his daughter into whores will knock Tyrion over and into the abyss.

He despised Jamie for that and was resentful of him (and of Sansa for leaving him) ... especially in his darkest period after he left KL in A dance with dragons... but apparently he's very slowly recovering (as I said below, IF he does recover.. I expect him to be in a dark place for at least the first half of TWoW) and we have a hint of him starting to think of the whole thing in a more rational light, so that he starts to forgive and he misses his brother (and his wife):

 

Quote

 

Kem liked that. "Singer's stew. I'll ask for that next time I get back to Flea Bottom. What do you miss, Halfman?" 

Jaime, thought Tyrion. Shae. Tysha. My wife*, I miss my wife, the wife I hardly knew. "Wine, whores, and wealth," he answered. "Especially the wealth. Wealth will buy you wine and whores." It will also buy you swords, and the Kems to wield them.

Jamie is the first one coming to his mind.

*as for this, I think GRRM was being ambiguous on purpose here, leading people to believe it's only Tysha (he's currernly obsessed with where whores go) while he's thinking about Sansa too.

It would have been SO easy to have Tyrion say: “Shae. Tysha, my wife” => aka 1. Shae, 2. his former wife Tysha.

but instead he wrote “Shae. Tysha. My wife” => which imo means 1. Shae. 2. Tysha. 3 His current wife, Sansa.

I think that's a clue Tyrion still considers himself bound by the marriage vow. There is a S5 scene in the show that has the same (hidden) meaning imo (where the red herring is Shae, because the Tysha storyline after Jeoffrey's murder was cut).

 

 

Their bond is very strong and I think he would still save Jamie, despite everything... he would fight with himself and in the end he would save him (at the moment, I guess Jamie wouldn't save him...but maybe it's going to change. If a meeting ever happens, it's gonna be tense but there are at least some chances it ends up leading towards forgiveness).

[Elisabetta Duò]

35 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Your English is nearly flawless. Congratulations. Deuteragonist derives from the Greek deuteragonistes

Thanks you are very kind. I had classical studies so I studied ancient greek and ancient latin at the high school but I'm not familiar with the eng words deriving from them (I should know English way better than I do to be familiar with that kind of words) and I'm not used to see them written in "our" alphabet .. to be honest, I doubt I would have recognized the etymology (to guess the meaning) even if it had been written in Greek... I didn't study Greek at the University so it's been about 15 yrs since I last studied it and I just didn't remember the word.

[Lost Melnibonean]

14 minutes ago, Elisabetta Duò said:

He despised Jamie for that and was resentful of him (and of Sansa for leaving him) ... especially in his darkest period after he left KL in A dance with dragons... but apparently he's very slowly recovering (as I said below, IF he does recover.. I expect him to be in a dark place for at least the first half of TWoW) and we have a hint of him starting to think of the whole thing in a more rational light, so that he starts to forgive and he misses his brother (and his wife):

 

 

Their bond is very strong and I think he would still save Jamie, despite everything... he would fight with himself and in the end he would save him (at the moment, I guess Jamie wouldn't save him...but maybe it's going to change. If a meeting ever happens, it's gonna be tense but there are at least some chances it ends up leading towards forgiveness).

What do you miss? Jaime and Shae. Two betrayers followed by Tysha. Tysha the wife he hardly knew. And why did he hardly know her? Be cause his father and his brother conspired to steal away from her and turn her over to the please of a whole troop of men. And to Tyrion's great shame, he joined in. 

[Elisabetta Duò]

10 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

What do you miss? Jaime and Shae. Two betrayers followed by Tysha. Tysha the wife he hardly knew. And why did he hardly know her? Be cause his father and his brother conspired to steal away from her and turn her over to the please of a whole troop of men. And to Tyrion's great shame, he joined in. 

We have to disagree about that :-)

Anyway, have you ever seen this interview? Charles Dance doesn't think Tyrion is a Targ (and I agree with him). Of course he talks by a general point of view (he didn't read the books) but I think he got the core of it (and I think the girl asking the question was far too insistent): 

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 minutes ago, Elisabetta Duò said:

We have to disagree about that :-)

Anyway, have you ever seen this interview? Charles Dance doesn't think Tyrion is a Targ (and I agree with him). Of course he talks by a general point of view (he didn't read the books) but I think he got the core of it (and I think the girl asking the question was far too insistent): 

 

I try not to rely on proofs from the show anymore. And I stopped watching it entirely to avoid spoilers.