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Why was Ned in the Vale?


Alaynsa Starne

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This bugs me so much. From what we know, Brandon was on his way to Riverrun to marry Cat. Apparently, none of his immediate family were traveling with him. Which in itself is odd, especially if all the Stark kids were at the Harrenhal tourney and Lyanna was kidnapped very shortly thereafter. Why did all the Stark siblings split up just before the wedding instead of traveling together to Riverrun? Doesn't it seem sort of odd for a man's brothers and sister not to show up at his wedding?

Even more odd: what the hell was Ned doing in the Vale when his family was executed? Brandon must have been in captivity for weeks by the time Rickard and the fathers of all of Brandon's companions made it to KL. That's ample time for Ned to get word of what was going on and at least start riding for Winterfell. At this point, everyone knows Aerys is a nutjob and Ben is very young to be proxy Lord of WF. It makes no sense that Ned would be visiting Jon Arryn when his family is in the middle of a crisis. 

Does this bother anyone else? Am I missing something super obvious?

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I could be wrong, but my understanding was that the wedding was some ways off, and the Stark's would converge on Riverrun at the appropriate time; Rickard would bring Ben, Ned and Robert would come from the Vale, and Lyanna from Harrenhal?(did she stay at Haarenhal after the tourney, I've never known exactly where she was at?).  Brandon was at Riverrun getting to know Cat, but why did he leave?  To meet up with his friends?  Guess I don't know either.

As to Ned staying in the Vale as the crisis developed, I can only assume that Jon counseled a wait and see approach to Ned and Robert.  Once Areys dropped the hammer, he then sent his wards out to gather their banners.

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Another question. At the time when Robert's Rebellion began, Robert was already Lord of Storms End. However I always read that King Aerys demand Jon Arryn to "hand over" Robert and Ned. Wouldn't Robert have already been at Storm's End? Surely as the Lord he wouldn't have still been a ward with Jon Arryn in the Vale. 

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4 minutes ago, Yin & Yang said:

Another question. At the time when Robert's Rebellion began, Robert was already Lord of Storms End. However I always read that King Aerys demand Jon Arryn to "hand over" Robert and Ned. Wouldn't Robert have already been at Storm's End? Surely as the Lord he wouldn't have still been a ward with Jon Arryn in the Vale. 

Robert does not have to have been Jon's ward for him to enjoy spending time with Arryn and Ned in the Vale.

 

GRRM on Ned and Robert's wardship:

And once he reached the age of sixteen he was a man grown, free to come to go as he liked... which would have included both time at home and in the Vale, since Jon Arryn had become a second father. The same was true of Robert, who divided his time between Storm's End and the Vale after reaching manhood, not to mention dropping in on tourneys and whatever choice fights he could find.

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24 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Robert does not have to have been Jon's ward for him to enjoy spending time with Arryn and Ned in the Vale.

 

GRRM on Ned and Robert's wardship:

And once he reached the age of sixteen he was a man grown, free to come to go as he liked... which would have included both time at home and in the Vale, since Jon Arryn had become a second father. The same was true of Robert, who divided his time between Storm's End and the Vale after reaching manhood, not to mention dropping in on tourneys and whatever choice fights he could find.

I've never seen that quote. Thanks.

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2 hours ago, King Ned Stark said:

I could be wrong, but my understanding was that the wedding was some ways off, and the Stark's would converge on Riverrun at the appropriate time; Rickard would bring Ben, Ned and Robert would come from the Vale, and Lyanna from Harrenhal?(did she stay at Haarenhal after the tourney, I've never known exactly where she was at?).  Brandon was at Riverrun getting to know Cat, but why did he leave?  To meet up with his friends?  Guess I don't know either.

As to Ned staying in the Vale as the crisis developed, I can only assume that Jon counseled a wait and see approach to Ned and Robert.  Once Areys dropped the hammer, he then sent his wards out to gather their banners.

"Brandon had been twenty when he died, strangled by the order of the Mad King Aerys only a few short days before he was to wed Catelyn Tully of Riverrun." Eddard I, AGOT

"Brandon Stark had bid her wait as well. 'I shall not be long, my lady,' he had vowed. 'We will be wed on my return.' Yet when the day came at last, it was his brother Eddard who stood beside her in the sept." Catelyn X, AGOT 

"'He was on his way to Riverrun when...' Strange, how telling it still made her throat go tight, after all these years. '...when he heard about Lyanna, and went to King's Landing instead.'" Catelyn VII, ACOK 

Those suggest to me that the wedding was meant to be very soon after Brandon's arrival. More than that, Catelyn speaks with some authority on what kind of person Brandon was. It seems that she knew him rather well, and that Brandon had probably spent a significant amount of time at Riverrrun before. So I doubt they needed to spend much time getting to know one another. 

So if the wedding was so close, it doesn't make any sense that Ned, Benjen, and Rickard would all leave the Riverlands and go extremely far out of their way only to return a few weeks later. I mean, we get a pretty good idea of how much of a trek it is through the Vale from Sansa's and Cat's chapters. And this was in winter. I know it was technically the year of the false spring, but that's still in the mountains, and it still would have been fairly cold and snowy. I understand that Ned and Jon were close, but it still makes very little sense that he would go all that way at that time. 

And I understand that being cautious and not making any rash decisions in such a precarious crisis as that is fairly wise, and I can see why Jon would offer that advice. But even if it would behoove Ned to wait until Aerys did the unthinkable to raise his banners, shouldn't he still have been riding North? Or at least to a location more conducive to looking for Lyanna or something? I mean, this is one of those situations where time seems to be of the essence, and given that Aerys was pretty widely known to be a freaking psycho, wouldn't it make more sense for Ned to get home as quickly as possible just in case he does need to raise his banners? Plus, Benjen was probably insanely overwhelmed and he was pretty much all alone with no other family in Winterfell. And for a man as family-oriented as Ned, it just doesn't make sense to me that he would hang out in the Vale for however long before riding North. 

So I don't know if this is just a case of awkward writing and poorly established timelines, or what. But it's one of those stupid details that annoys me. 

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I actually want to say at least one Stark would had to be absent from the wedding; because there always has to be one Stark in Winterfell? So this would probably have been Ben or Rickard?

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Brandon was returning to Riverrun when he heard the news about Lyanna, coming down south with Rickard and the wedding party. Presumably, Benjen remained at Winterfell ("There must always be a Stark at Winterfell"), as all the other children were elsewhere. 

Brandon's execution occured a few short das before the wedding was supposed to happen, but how much time he spent a captive, we don't know. Rickard would have needed time to travel from whichever point between Winterfell and Riverrun he was, to KL first, and that would have, at least, taken a few weeks.

 

So who is to say that Ned was not supposed to go to the wedding? And that the only reason he was still in the Vale when Brandon and Rickard died, was because he had stayed in one location when news of Lyanna (or Brandon's arrest, or both) reached him? After all, Rickard could better send him word if he knew where to find him.

 

As to Lyanna... She disappeared ten leagues from Harrenhal. Was she staying there, or was she passing by, traveling towards Riverrun? We don't know, but it is possible.

 

The only thing we know with certainty is that Rickard was on his way to he wedding. But that doesn't mean Lyanna and Ned hadn't been planning to go there, too. 

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9 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Robert does not have to have been Jon's ward for him to enjoy spending time with Arryn and Ned in the Vale.

 

GRRM on Ned and Robert's wardship:

And once he reached the age of sixteen he was a man grown, free to come to go as he liked... which would have included both time at home and in the Vale, since Jon Arryn had become a second father. The same was true of Robert, who divided his time between Storm's End and the Vale after reaching manhood, not to mention dropping in on tourneys and whatever choice fights he could find.

Beat me too it with the quote.

also, it seems perfectly natural to me. Robert loves his brothers as a dutiful brother, but he felt much closer to Ned. At the vale with Jon Arryn and Ned would seem the most natural place for Robert to be before heading off to Riverrun.

 

That said, the part I do not get is, as soon as Brandon heard of lyanna's capture he changes courses and charges towards King's Landing. He is described as something like "a noble fool" by Hoster Tully. He is often thought to be much more like Robert than Ned. But Robert, who loved Lyanna, and was a Lord in his own right stayed at the Vale rather than also charging towards KL?

i guess it could be a testament of the calming effect that Jon and Ned had on Robert, but from what we know of him he doesn't seem like the "sit and wait" type

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Before Aerys birth, the big houses rarely married off to one another. However during Aerys time we observe an explosion of marriage/marriage proposals between the big houses. Brandon was promised to Cat, Robert to Lyanna, Tywin considered a marriage between Jamie and Lysa while the Martells visited the Lannisters to try to seal a marriage deal. I wont be surprised if Eddard was sent to the Vale to consolidate the alliance between the three houses and hopefully find a noble woman which would further strengthen the alliance between the Vale and the North.

I don't believe in the Northern alliance conspiracy theory. If the Northern alliance was true than Rickard would have never gone solo to meet Aerys. However its undeniable that the major houses were brewing something by sealing alliances with one another through marriage. Its only fair TBH. Tywin was the perfect hand of the King and yet his son was stripped away from him, his daughter was humiliated and Aerys even made remarks on Tywin's wife. If Aerys was able to treat his most productive subject in that way then god knows how he would treat them if they end up his target.

 

 

 

Spoiler

 

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15 hours ago, Alaynsa Starne said:

This bugs me so much. From what we know, Brandon was on his way to Riverrun to marry Cat. Apparently, none of his immediate family were traveling with him. Which in itself is odd, especially if all the Stark kids were at the Harrenhal tourney and Lyanna was kidnapped very shortly thereafter. Why did all the Stark siblings split up just before the wedding instead of traveling together to Riverrun? Doesn't it seem sort of odd for a man's brothers and sister not to show up at his wedding?

Even more odd: what the hell was Ned doing in the Vale when his family was executed? Brandon must have been in captivity for weeks by the time Rickard and the fathers of all of Brandon's companions made it to KL. That's ample time for Ned to get word of what was going on and at least start riding for Winterfell. At this point, everyone knows Aerys is a nutjob and Ben is very young to be proxy Lord of WF. It makes no sense that Ned would be visiting Jon Arryn when his family is in the middle of a crisis. 

Does this bother anyone else? Am I missing something super obvious?

I don't imagine the whole family would have gone to the wedding? Royal weddings are a big deal, but otherwise the weddings we've seen have been relatively small affairs. The big question is, how long after the tourney was Lyanna abducted? We don't know. Some people say a year, but all we know is "sometime after." We don't know where anyone is or what's happening, really, only the smallest details. It's very possible Brandon was going to the wedding on his own, that Ned was in the Vale, or that everyone else was back at Winterfell. We don't know where Lyanna was when Rhaegar took her, either. 

4 hours ago, YOVMO said:

Beat me too it with the quote.

also, it seems perfectly natural to me. Robert loves his brothers as a dutiful brother, but he felt much closer to Ned. At the vale with Jon Arryn and Ned would seem the most natural place for Robert to be before heading off to Riverrun.

 

That said, the part I do not get is, as soon as Brandon heard of lyanna's capture he changes courses and charges towards King's Landing. He is described as something like "a noble fool" by Hoster Tully. He is often thought to be much more like Robert than Ned. But Robert, who loved Lyanna, and was a Lord in his own right stayed at the Vale rather than also charging towards KL?

i guess it could be a testament of the calming effect that Jon and Ned had on Robert, but from what we know of him he doesn't seem like the "sit and wait" type

It's also possible that they did not catch word of it until Rickard was already headed to Winterfell. Again, we don't know how Brandon found out/who told him. He might have gotten word on the road, and the men he had with him were probably men he had anyway since he was traveling to his wedding. We don't know that he sent word to anyone about what was happening, so it's possible Robert didn't know. And it does seem likely that, when he did find out, he was in The Vale (otherwise why would Aerys have asked Aryn for their heads?), and it seems like both Ned and Jon would have been able to counsel him from storming the keep, as it were. At least until it was time to raise all their banners in rebellion. 

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1 minute ago, Rumy Stark said:

 

 

It's also possible that they did not catch word of it until Rickard was already headed to Winterfell. Again, we don't know how Brandon found out/who told him. He might have gotten word on the road, and the men he had with him were probably men he had anyway since he was traveling to his wedding. We don't know that he sent word to anyone about what was happening, so it's possible Robert didn't know. And it does seem likely that, when he did find out, he was in The Vale (otherwise why would Aerys have asked Aryn for their heads?), and it seems like both Ned and Jon would have been able to counsel him from storming the keep, as it were. At least until it was time to raise all their banners in rebellion. 

This is a fair enough reason why Robert wouldn't have met with Brandon on the way. However, in the time it took lord Rikard to get from Winterfell to Kingslanding I would have to assume that word had reached the vale that the heir to winterfell was being held prisoner by the king with his lord father called to court and Lyanna having been "abducted" by Rheagar.


Remember, at this point Robert would have been Lord of Storm's End. To think that he didn't ride at that point, didn't call his banners seems out of character unless it was Jon Arryn and Ned who convinced him that everything would be ok....Robert isn't one to sit, however, in the Vale of Arryn while Rikard Stark rides to winterfell to answer charges against an imprisoned Brandon Stark who went to kings landing after hearing that his sister, Robert's fiancé was kidnapped by the crown prince.

 

I can see Ned being told to wait and be patient. But Robert?

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5 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

This is a fair enough reason why Robert wouldn't have met with Brandon on the way. However, in the time it took lord Rikard to get from Winterfell to Kingslanding I would have to assume that word had reached the vale that the heir to winterfell was being held prisoner by the king with his lord father called to court and Lyanna having been "abducted" by Rheagar.


Remember, at this point Robert would have been Lord of Storm's End. To think that he didn't ride at that point, didn't call his banners seems out of character unless it was Jon Arryn and Ned who convinced him that everything would be ok....Robert isn't one to sit, however, in the Vale of Arryn while Rikard Stark rides to winterfell to answer charges against an imprisoned Brandon Stark who went to kings landing after hearing that his sister, Robert's fiancé was kidnapped by the crown prince.

 

I can see Ned being told to wait and be patient. But Robert?

True! I really hope we get the full story at some point from GRRM because there is quite a bit about it that doesn't make sense and I tend to think it's just because we're missing important details rather than that there are serious plotholes.

GRRM did admit to timeline errors regarding RR at one point though, didn't he?

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1 minute ago, Rumy Stark said:

True! I really hope we get the full story at some point from GRRM because there is quite a bit about it that doesn't make sense and I tend to think it's just because we're missing important details rather than that there are serious plotholes.

GRRM did admit to timeline errors regarding RR at one point though, didn't he?

I feel we will get the full story. GRRM is so demonstrative in his description of Robert being impetuous. Even when Jorah explains the problems of a dothraki invasion of westeros to Dany he notes that if Robert were alive he might be crazy enough to ride out and meet the dothraki, but with Tywin Lannister calling the shots they will stay behind the walls and the dothraki will break because they don't know siege war.

 

I feel we will find something out about Robert and Ned's time in the Vale that will make clear why Robert didn't call the stormlords to immediately assemble when he heard about the events.

 

GRRM did admit to time line errors. It really is to be expected. However, timeline errors about histories, especially as regards old heros and mythical figures is one thing. He specifically notes that Ned and Robert are in the Vale when Brandon gets word of Lyanna's abduction and rides to King's Landing.

 

I am willing to believe that somehow word got to Brandon before it got out to the public. I will even go as far as to believe that word of Brandon's imprisonment got to Lord Rikard before the general public knew what was going on. But even if Rickon travelled lightly and made haste to Kings Landing, I cannot accept that no news of what was going on hit the Vale between the time he left winterfell and the time he got to Kings Landing.

Remember, Catlyn knows that Brandon changes course and heads for Kings Landing from Hoster Tully. So Brandon may have sent word to riverrun...like "yo, hoss, going to kings landing...Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna" and we can safely assume that he told Hoster why he was going, not just because you really need to tell your host why when you plan on not showing up for your own wedding, but Hoster Tully remarks that he is a noble fool for going.

The idea that Hoster Tully, knowing that Lyanna's fiancé, Robert, was in the Vale and finding out that she had been kidnapped would not send a raven to the Vale would be very unlikely. However, I will still by that it is possible as Robert has a reputation for Rashness and has the power of all the storm lords behind him so maybe, maybe, maybe Hoster took a wait and see attitude.

But face it, they were not out camping in the woods. At some point someone would have noticed the Lord of Winterfell riding south. Someone would have known what was going on and ravens would have been dispatched to all of the great lords to prepare because trouble a-brewin'

There is something here and I think we will find out one day.

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Despite Aerys' flaws, the realm was at peace.  Free movement and leaving your castle in the hands of your household would not have been a big deal.  Rickard seems to have let his kids wander around the Riverlands and Vale.  Robert's time as king would suggest that as a unwed teenaager he probably wanted to be anywhere other than running Storm's End.

Also, our experience with weddings in Westeros is a bit skewed.  Presumably some of Brandon's family would have to be there for the wedding, but I doubt that all of them would.  If Rickard bothered to attend, it would probably be more about networking with Hoster and the other lords than anything about his son.

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9 hours ago, CJ McLannister said:

Despite Aerys' flaws, the realm was at peace.  Free movement and leaving your castle in the hands of your household would not have been a big deal.  Rickard seems to have let his kids wander around the Riverlands and Vale.  Robert's time as king would suggest that as a unwed teenaager he probably wanted to be anywhere other than running Storm's End.

Also, our experience with weddings in Westeros is a bit skewed.  Presumably some of Brandon's family would have to be there for the wedding, but I doubt that all of them would.  If Rickard bothered to attend, it would probably be more about networking with Hoster and the other lords than anything about his son.

I imagine that not everyone would be there just because of some logistical issues. But... none of them? 

And I understand that Brandon's wedding with Cat would have been several weeks off from when Lyanna was abducted. But thinking about it, Rhaegar likely would have abducted Lyanna shortly after the tourney. She was taken only a bit away from Harrenhal. Why would Rhaegar wait several months to a year to get back to the same point to kidnap her? How would he even know that's where she was unless he followed her from the tourney? The most logical explanation is that the "some time after the tourney" in which Lyanna was abducted was probably only a couple of weeks. So even if Brandon's wedding were a few months away from when Lyanna went missing, it just seems weird that Ned would ride all the way to the Vale *if he was intending to go to the wedding* and then ride all the way back to Riverrun. We know the journey through the Vale is rough. It would make more sense for Ned to schedule his visit for after the wedding, not before. And if Ned wasn't planning to go to the wedding, why not? As far as we know, there wouldn't be a reason for him not to go. And we don't know of any cultural reasons he wouldn't. So he probably did intend to go. 

And even if that wasn't the case, it still doesn't make sense for Ned to be in the Vale for so long when all of this was going on with his family. Like, if your sister were kidnapped, your brother was arrested, your father was going to trial with a madman sitting as judge, and your younger brother was ruling the North without any other familial back-up, would you ride home to Winterfell? Even if everything were resolved peacefully and Ned and Jon Arryn were hoping for the best, it doesn't make sense for him to sit and wait in the Vale. Just in case something went wrong, he would probably want to be in the North just in case he needed to raise his banners. 

It's just such an odd thing to me. 

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Ned was a ward to Jon Arryn. I don't blame him for not being near Lyanna. Brandon should have taken her with him to Riverrun though. This is far more on him than Ned. No reason for her to go with him to the Vale, because that would have been costly to send her back to Winterfell without Ned. Brandon was going to Riverrun anyway, so she should have remained with him.

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On 6/22/2016 at 4:35 AM, Bright Blue Eyes said:

There was about a year between the tourney at Harrenhal and Lyanna disappearing. Furthermore, there were at least three to five months between Brandon first making for KL and his wedding date (Rickard travelling from Winterfell to KL would take two to three months alone).

Yeah, the bigger question is where was Lyanna when she was kidnapped, and why wasn't she at least at Riverrun? Did she stay at Harrenhall after the tourney? This is unclear.

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45 minutes ago, Lord_Tyrell said:

Ned was a ward to Jon Arryn. I don't blame him for not being near Lyanna. Brandon should have taken her with him to Riverrun though. This is far more on him than Ned. No reason for her to go with him to the Vale, because that would have been costly to send her back to Winterfell without Ned. Brandon was going to Riverrun anyway, so she should have remained with him.

Oh, I'm not really blaming anyone for not being with Lyanna when she was taken. She presumably had some members of her household guard with her. I doubt the presence of one of her brothers would have made a difference. I just can't figure out why they were each all over the continent at a time that was (probably) very shortly after the tourney and definitely very close to Brandon's wedding. 

Also, Ned had reached his majority and was no longer being fostered in the Vale. I understand that he still maintained a close relationship with Jon and Robert, but he had no actual obligation to be there. 

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