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A LittleFinger LONG plot?


Iron Mother

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Assume Cersei and Jamie die.  And I'm sure they will.  Plus, LF has specifically mentioned having Cersei in his sights for a while.

If LF does manage to seduce Sansa... if he targets Tyrion... if he dispatches Sweet Robyn...

- he controls The Vale
- he controls The North through Sansa
- he controls Harrenhal (a very powerful seat)
- he controls Casterly Rock through Sansa's legitimate marriage to Tyrion if he dies
- House Tully has no true heirs now I think?  Will Sansa come into that as well through her heritage?  The Riverlands

Whether any of this is true or possible, something tells me the final Westeros conflict before the WW Armies will involve LF v Dany.  LF has been consistent in collecting lands and titles and making sure he kept Sansa on the hook.  WHY go so far to "court" her???  It's not totally for love (if at all), I highly doubt it.  It's clear LF isn't trying to make a better Westeros, he wants it for himself. 

Am I missing other things LF has "collected" over time?  He has become a shadow figure, hiding in plain sight.  Varys predicted he (LF) would be king of the ashes if that's what it took.  Dany will have to put him down.  Is there a thread on this already?  I didn't see it

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Yeah the long game is for control of Westeros, clearly. It's just a question of how far he'll get. Particularly re: Sansa I can't see her allying with him right now, esp involving a marriage pact of any kind considering what happened last time and how she confronted him earlier this season.

So what will be really interesting to see is what he'll do assuming his Sansa plans fall through. 

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Yeah, I think LF's best quality is that he hasn't really made the crown fear him when collecting all these assets because he is doing it "for them,"

by giving Sansa to the Bolton's (knowing the Bolton's were eventually going to lose WF and couldn't hold a grudge) he gets the crown to dismiss their dealing with the Bolton's and name him Lord Protector of the North.

He was given the Vale via marriage to Lysa by the crown for arranging the alliance between the Lannisters and Tyrells. He works his magic and is basically in charge because of his control over Robin.

Speaking of the alliance, he allies with Ollena and the Reach, again at the behest of Tywin and the crown.

He gains Harrenhall though not sure how much that actually comes with anymore, seeing as the Freys hold RiverRun and Lord Paramount. Certainly shouldn't be to hard to get them on his side either.

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LF is forgetting one thing, he has no name, no friends, yet constantly 'plays' the game with high stakes. Any 'true' players/lords (Ned, Boltons, Jon, Cersei, Tywin,...) could just walk up to him and erase that smirk from his fucking face by stabbing him in the guts. And I can tell you no one would bat an eye or jump in between. Well, Robyn would (only now) but who cares about that kid anyway -> if North doesn't care about the Starks I can't see people following/care about that little shit at all.

I bet this is how LF eventually dies. Thinking he's mastered it but is killed - just because.

Edit: This might be interesting thread as I'm really interested on some opinions regarding LF's motivations, decisions such as giving Sansa to Boltons, etc...

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LF still has one thing a LOT of lords covet; money, and the War of the five kings would probably have left a lot of houses in need of assistance, especially with Winter coming. And I'm betting Gulltown and The Vale in General will be very important for feeding the kingdom come Winter. 

with the Riverlands in shambles and The Lannister's generally concerned about the crown and its own lands, I have a feeling The Lord Paramount is going to pay a visit to his seat and deal with certain untrustworthy houses (Freys). 

He is playing a veeeeerrrrrrry long game, and the fact that said lords didn't just stab him through the throat is a testament to why he is managing so well. 

money money money money. 

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2 hours ago, wiredup said:

He is playing a veeeeerrrrrrry long game, and the fact that said lords didn't just stab him through the throat is a testament to why he is managing so well. 

So long that it was probably him who whispered tales of Lyanna’s alleged “rape” to Brandon Stark and so begat Robert’s Rebellion and all that followed.

“Only Cat.”

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I don't believe LF has a long massive sinister plot in mind, he is an opportunist: consider the major points where he gained advantage:

Attempt on Bran.

Death of King Robert.

Death of Stannis.

Red Wedding.

With the possible exception of the Red Wedding (and the death of Stannis in particular) LF could not have masterminded or even predicted these events. He see's the events around him, and reacts quickly and effectively to the new dynamic. He is something equivalent to those that sold their shares in airlines the moment they saw the planes hit the twin towers.

While it's likely he has general aims, I don't believe he has an "End Goal" so much as seizes opportunities as they arise.

As for his actual standing, he power is and always has been, influence other those with actual power. He strength lies with him have controlling interest in multiple parties, while never being the face or actual actualizer of events. Let's go over what he has:

- he controls The Vale - I don't really believe he does. Robin controls the Vale. The lords don't really want to follow LF, and Robin isn't so easily controlled (suffering from Joffery syndrome), and could very easily turn on LF and ask the LotV to make him fly.
- he controls The North through Sansa - Sansa is very wise to LF plots, and although is in debt to LF, is certainly not controlled by him. As with the Vale, the Lords would be looking for a chance to chuck him out.
- he controls Harrenhal (a very powerful seat) - While influential and potentially rich, it (like most of the Riverlands) is very worthless at the moment.
- he controls Casterly Rock through Sansa's legitimate marriage to Tyrion if he dies - I'm not really sure who controls Casterly Rock at the moment, but it isn't Tyrion. The marriage between Sansa and Tyrion is void, and even if by some miracle Sansa did control Casterly Rock, LF faces the same problems as above, plus the issues with Sansa herself attempting to have any control over the Westerlands when other legitimate Lannisters exist.
- House Tully has no true heirs now I think?  Will Sansa come into that as well through her heritage?  The Riverlands - This is more likely. It isn't actually true. Edmure controls Riverun, and his children (assuming Jaime wasn't lying) come next. Bran would potentially be next in line (though he is assumed dead), and Sansa would come after. While in the books the Riverlands are now owned by LF (I don't believe this happened in the series), it is likely that the Riverlander lords may fight for Sansa as they did for Robb. Though the Riverlands are completely decimated at the moment, and completely useless.

So realistically, all LF really has is some degree of power over the Vale and the North (with the Vale being the more useful of the two), but is actually in a far worse position that he was before. He is about to lose the closest thing to an ally in King's Landing (and most of KL as it stands), and has likely burned any bridges with the Tyrells. One of his Major allies (Sansa) doesn't trust him and likely wants revenge for selling her out to Ramsay, the other is unstable and unpredictable (Robin).

Even if he got the Vale and the North onboard, their armies would be completely crushed by Dany and her armies.

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When I said he could "seduce" Sansa" that means he could get her on board for seeing all this through his vision.  Like Palpatine and Anakin.  Sansa has become wise THROUGH LF and by watching him.  In the book she's even more in his shadow.  So what if Sansa goes to the Dark Side but thinks she is right in her own logic?  Then, she will be manipulated by LF without thinking she is.

In the past, LF has appeared to put himself on the altar for her - at her mercy - to get her to do something when ultimately, Sansa did something that actually benefited his plan and she didn't see it. 

When he took her to marry Ramsey he made her belief she was avenging her family.  She didn't want to do it.  But he made her believe it would be in her best interest.

She watched while he orchestrated Lysa's death and physically pushed her to death......... and then lied to everyone for him.  He never asked her to do that.  He put trust in the "seeds planted" in Sansa's mind that she would do what was in his best interest.  IMO he's got her locked up!  She's been angry at him before.  And somehow, he manages to persuade her by making her believe doing so will EMPOWER her.

SHE DEFIED JON FOR HIM!  Jon and the entire North planned the Bolton attack and Jon was going forward against Sansa's counsel............ so what happened? SHE TURNED TO LF because it BENEFITED HER against Ramsay when that was LF's plan all along.

Check it out!

I'm not saying this will happen, but using it as an example.  WHAT is Sansa's reaction to Daenerys in Westeros?  It seems like a slam dunk alliance.  But if you really look..... does Sansa immediately get on her knees to a foreigner?  A Targaryen? Someone wielding such great power with dragons... arriving to conquer HER homeland?  Look at it through Sansa being influenced by LF..... she may not be having any parts of the Dany intrusion.

I can envision a scenario where Sansa becomes convinced Dany is the "devil" come to destroy and dictate.  What real reason does Sansa have (or any of the Northern alliance now) to bow down to new Targaryen rule in Westeros?

It's OBVIOUS LF will not be praising Dany.  If he can get Sansa on board, her legitimacy/power combined with his wealth and titles/alliances (they are now beholden to the Vale for saving them against the Bolton rule) - kill Sweet Robyn and I'm sorry LF DOES own the Vale.  In every legal way and now, the North alliance has been GREATLY diminished in size.  It said they had 300 men fighting Boltons?  They probably have about 50 now including Jon, Davos, the wildlings and Bear Island, etc. 

LF divided and conquered the North literally.  The Vale (now his own army) saved the pitiful rag-tag fleet that is now the North.  Consider all this for when Dany arrives.  Does ANYONE in the North trust the Kraken force?  NO.  They won't listen to Yara/Asha or especially Theon.  Yet that is the only alliance in Westeros Dany has and even that is under attack by Euron crowseye.

Will Sansa be so happy to see her HUSBAND standing by Dany coming in a raid?  On the surface it seems one thing but look deeper and could be complete opposite if you add in LF influence.

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1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

That is his plan, probably. But something will go wrong, before or after Daenerys return. But I believe the one "welcoming" Daenerys will be the HS. We should have a religious war between the 7 and the idols burning Red Priests.

weird... i thought of this then saw your post.  Daenerys has not really expressed a religion herself.  But the Red Priests seem to be proclaiming her in the name of the Lord of Light.  I wonder if she will allow that.  I do not see her coming as "here I am, the emissary of the one true Lord of Light and you will slay all other gods in my name".  That would bust her chances hard and I don't think she believes that.  

The only religious allusion she has made is "valar morghulis" that one time and isn't that a Many Faced God expression like Arya in Braavos? 

I can see a PERCEIVED religious war among the people over her presence but not from HER personally.  But if she becomes seduced by a Red Priest or something by believing she IS some kind of Red God savior, she is facing much trouble in Westeros.  If she remains religiously neutral she'll have a better chance.  She won't convert to the Drowned God via the Greyjoys that's for sure.

Anyone else seeing a parallel to Battlestar Galactica with this?  How Baltar's cult became powerful in the Exodus and belief in the Old Gods being challenged?  BELOVED CROSSOVER :) 

Lady M "there is only one god" - over and over.

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20 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

weird... i thought of this then saw your post.  Daenerys has not really expressed a religion herself.  But the Red Priests seem to be proclaiming her in the name of the Lord of Light.  I wonder if she will allow that.  I do not see her coming as "here I am, the emissary of the one true Lord of Light and you will slay all other gods in my name".  That would bust her chances hard and I don't think she believes that.  

I don't remember she ever met a Red Priest so far. But what will she think when they will tell her she is AAR? They will serve her the lies Melisandre served Stannis. The Savior of the World. She already believe it. And another string of qualities to add to her already long list.

They will show it in their fires. BTW, I'm wondering if the RP are not using something like hypnosis when they have people looking into their flames.

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17 hours ago, Taylor Swift said:

LF plan has been obvious from S1.

 

They just spelt it out very clearly.

He wants SANSA + IRON Throne. That is his endgame.

He seemed pretty keen on cat til she kicked the bucket. I think he Wil try weasel more power from Cersei :P

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Just thought about Haerrenhal................. and if I recall, the SEAT of Harren has ties also over the IRON BORNE!  And if that's true, doesn't Harrenhall ALSO "legall" hold sway over the Riverlands?  Riverlands have been and remain in chaos.  Can LittleFinger exert power there in the vacuum.

It was a hint when Jaime told Frey that King's Landing has to keep coming up there to solve his problems WITH the Riverlands.  So Frey and his sons are gone - thanks Arya - does it now mean King's landing is acting as if they have control there?  It's been portrayed as "disputed" kingdom but was given lawfully to Frey to watch over it...... but as a Warden only.  I'm confused.  Because I keep trying to understand why the show went back to Riverrun for such a protracted storyline.

Edmure owns it by being the heir however he seems powerless, and I have yet to see LF make any mention of his role there through Harrenhal if at all.

Wise scholars of the Citadel, I seek your knowledge!

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On 6/24/2016 at 0:16 PM, BalerionTheCat said:

I don't remember she ever met a Red Priest so far. But what will she think when they will tell her she is AAR? They will serve her the lies Melisandre served Stannis. The Savior of the World. She already believe it. And another string of qualities to add to her already long list.

They will show it in their fires. BTW, I'm wondering if the RP are not using something like hypnosis when they have people looking into their flames.

Yes, Dany is inherently tied to the Lord of Light just because she is all fire and dragons and I guess she's in their prophesies.  And yes, I think she would add all their claims to her long list of titles, but won't that be really bad for her?  Especially since the North saw the Red Woman's evil and they expunged her.  Doesn't bode well if she comes with the LoL - not for Jon or Sansa or anyone in Westeros basically except the Brotherhood and other zealots.

With the Sept gone and all that religion erased, there will be a vacuum, CONVERTS may help Dany.

I cannot tho see Dany basking in the "light" of a god that routinely burns people alive and does all kinds of evil things in the name of that god.  Can you?

I see the LoL followers more as Slaver's Bay minded (you must renounce your freedom of religion or be burned).  Dany is TOTALLY against that mindset, right? 

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On 28/06/2016 at 11:35 PM, Iron Mother said:

I cannot tho see Dany basking in the "light" of a god that routinely burns people alive and does all kinds of evil things in the name of that god.  Can you?

I see the LoL followers more as Slaver's Bay minded (you must renounce your freedom of religion or be burned).  Dany is TOTALLY against that mindset, right? 

The slavery has many different flavors. The usual slave trade is one. You convert or you burn is more a war of conquest than slavery. But OK, you force the free will of someone else. Forcing people to take oaths, like the Night Watch, is another form of slavery. Pushing people in a war, your war, without their consent, to your benefit and not theirs, is also slavery. Lying to people, with the intent of forcing their decision is also slavery. Everything that rob the liberties of someone. For me, only the Free Folk are, in some way free. Each one is deciding for himself. But it has problems too. If you are isolated, you become vulnerable and nothing will protect you. There must be a balance, somewhere. I feel it is near how Jon is dealing with people [in the books of course, not in the show]. And far from what Daenerys is doing. Anyone who claims Westeros belong to him/her is wrong. Neither the land, nor the people, are the property of someone.

For Daenerys letting Red Priests burning people? Logically, no, but I don't see how she could keep everything under control. And sometime, she really speaks violence and murder.

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