What would you do differently as Jon Snow

[Xcorpyo001]

Well, there’s a lot of things that could be done differently. For instance, they could have tried to send some infiltrators to try and rescue him from inside WF, like in the books. They could have failed and we would know who those bodies on the crosses were. Without a rescue attempt, Ramsay had to flay some of his own peasants to demoralize the enemy army.

Second, Jon should have taken one for the team so to speak, make a shadow baby with Mel and kill Ramsay inside WF. Problem solved, no one else has to die, because no one will follow Karstark or Umber as the new Warden of the North. Or maybe Sansa could have told Jon about the Vale troops, Ramsay would remain inside WF, they would have built a battering ram big enough to also hide Wun Wun(the battering ram has a ‘roof’ of sorts, so the guys moving the ram itself are protected from arrows from above), WT impregnated in several minuets rather than months of siege.

Third, if I were Jon, my Wun Wun would have either a bow(like that giant that could hit a NW guy that was on top of the Wall, so a minimum of 750 feet in a vertical trajectory), or a barn door as a shield and a piece of tree as a club(I’d like to see them try to keep a shield wall while being hit with half a tree from all sides). Send Wun Wun to protect Rickon with his improvised shield, while at the same time sending Ghost to directly attack Ramsay, so he has to choose between trying to save his life by attacking Ghost and trying to hit Rickon. In the book the wildling still have wargs in their ranks. Maybe send their animals to attack Ramsay(he wouldn’t even think to look in the sky for a eagle or something, he could have easily lost an eye)  while sending some riders and Wun Wun to collect Rickon.

Or maybe Rickon could have used his head for a second and realized he wasn’t going to survive, and choose to bite Ramsay’s throat with his bare teeth a la Thormund, head butt him or try to wrestle the dagger and stab the bastard. He would have probably failed, but go out like a champ. He was a little wild even as a punk kid, this grown up version should have been more feral as well.

For those that said that Jon should have stood there and just watch as his little brother was hunted down and killed as a wild animal, all I can say is that I’m glad I’m not part of your family. He did what he could with the tools D%D put at his disposal(no Ghost, no other wargs, no weapons or shieldfor Wun Wun, etc). There was a small chance he could have saved Rickon, but he couldn’t know that Ramsay is a villain and his plans can’t fail until the last second.

This scene is similar to the one that happened at the start of Robert’s Rebellion. Papa Stark was being cooked in his own armor, and Brandon hanged himself trying to reach the sword to release himself and save his father. He probably knew he’d die anyway, but he had to try at least. 

Even after Jon sprung the trap, Ramsay did nothing to exploit the flanks. He sent his cavalry straight at Jon, so no hit from the flanks. He then started killing his own men, again a mistake. Then he sent his shield units to trap them. But, they could have been easily defeated by a Wun Wun with a weapon. Or by the archers Davos was commanding in the back. If Davos would have hold his position as he should have, he could have easily targeted the phalanx from behind or even come close and engage in a melee, making an opening for the trapped soldiers. Everybody made mistakes in this fight.

Oh, and let’s not forget that in the books(and early seasons of the show), all Starks are shown to be excellent tacticians, Robb being even a genius when it came to laying traps and knowing how to use the terrain to his advantage. He never lost a fight, and he always had his direwolf with him in the thick of battle. Ned once told Barristan(?!?) that if he waited for Robert and not participated as well in the planning of the battles, they’d still be fighting the rebellion. Although he might have meant it as Robert would have liked to spend most of his time drinking with his former enemies rather than actually fighting. Anyway, it’s not possible for Jon to be that bad compared to the rest of his family. He wasn’t defeated by Ramsay, he was defeated by D&D because Sansa  had to take center stage, as an apology for the last season.

[Ser Greenseer]

32 minutes ago, Xcorpyo001 said:

Well, there’s a lot of things that could be done differently. For instance, they could have tried to send some infiltrators to try and rescue him from inside WF, like in the books. They could have failed and we would know who those bodies on the crosses were. Without a rescue attempt, Ramsay had to flay some of his own peasants to demoralize the enemy army.

 

Second, Jon should have taken one for the team so to speak, make a shadow baby with Mel and kill Ramsay inside WF. Problem solved, no one else has to die, because no one will follow Karstark or Umber as the new Warden of the North. Or maybe Sansa could have told Jon about the Vale troops, Ramsay would remain inside WF, they would have built a battering ram big enough to also hide Wun Wun(the battering ram has a ‘roof’ of sorts, so the guys moving the ram itself are protected from arrows from above), WT impregnated in several minuets rather than months of siege.

 

Third, if I were Jon, my Wun Wun would have either a bow(like that giant that could hit a NW guy that was on top of the Wall, so a minimum of 750 feet in a vertical trajectory), or a barn door as a shield and a piece of tree as a club(I’d like to see them try to keep a shield wall while being hit with half a tree from all sides). Send Wun Wun to protect Rickon with his improvised shield, while at the same time sending Ghost to directly attack Ramsay, so he has to choose between trying to save his life by attacking Ghost and trying to hit Rickon. In the book the wildling still have wargs in their ranks. Maybe send their animals to attack Ramsay(he wouldn’t even think to look in the sky for a eagle or something, he could have easily lost an eye)  while sending some riders and Wun Wun to collect Rickon.

 

Or maybe Rickon could have used his head for a second and realized he wasn’t going to survive, and choose to bite Ramsay’s throat with his bare teeth a la Thormund, head butt him or try to wrestle the dagger and stab the bastard. He would have probably failed, but go out like a champ. He was a little wild even as a punk kid, this grown up version should have been more feral as well.

 

For those that said that Jon should have stood there and just watch as his little brother was hunted down and killed as a wild animal, all I can say is that I’m glad I’m not part of your family. He did what he could with the tools D%D put at his disposal(no Ghost, no other wargs, no weapons or shieldfor Wun Wun, etc). There was a small chance he could have saved Rickon, but he couldn’t know that Ramsay is a villain and his plans can’t fail until the last second.

 

This scene is similar to the one that happened at the start of Robert’s Rebellion. Papa Stark was being cooked in his own armor, and Brandon hanged himself trying to reach the sword to release himself and save his father. He probably knew he’d die anyway, but he had to try at least. 

 

Even after Jon sprung the trap, Ramsay did nothing to exploit the flanks. He sent his cavalry straight at Jon, so no hit from the flanks. He then started killing his own men, again a mistake. Then he sent his shield units to trap them. But, they could have been easily defeated by a Wun Wun with a weapon. Or by the archers Davos was commanding in the back. If Davos would have hold his position as he should have, he could have easily targeted the phalanx from behind or even come close and engage in a melee, making an opening for the trapped soldiers. Everybody made mistakes in this fight.

 

Oh, and let’s not forget that in the books(and early seasons of the show), all Starks are shown to be excellent tacticians, Robb being even a genius when it came to laying traps and knowing how to use the terrain to his advantage. He never lost a fight, and he always had his direwolf with him in the thick of battle. Ned once told Barristan(?!?) that if he waited for Robert and not participated as well in the planning of the battles, they’d still be fighting the rebellion. Although he might have meant it as Robert would have liked to spend most of his time drinking with his former enemies rather than actually fighting. Anyway, it’s not possible for Jon to be that bad compared to the rest of his family. He wasn’t defeated by Ramsay, he was defeated by D&D because Sansa  had to take center stage, as an apology for the last season.

 

Well said

[Donaldys I Trumpagar]

For Lord of the Rings fans: the same scenario happened in the Silmarillion at the start of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad.

Noldor High King Fingon had carefully laid plans to meet Morgoth's massive forces on the Anfauglith plain, using his brother Maedhros' hidden host to attack the lumbering orc legions from their side.

However Morgoth figured out this trap and set one of his own, provoking the forces of one of Fingon's captains, Gwindor of Norgothrond, by leading out Gwindor's captured brother and butchering him on the field in front of the Elvish host. Enraged, Gwindor's companies charged across the plain and many of Fingon's host followed. Maedhros, finding out some days later that Fingon abandoned the plan, came to his aid but it was too late. The Noldor pushed far into the orc lines, almost to Angband itself, but then Morgoth emptied Angband of all his reserves, encircling and completely destroying the Noldor, along with many allied Edain.

I think the moral of both accounts is this: evil is willing to use the decency of good people against them. So we are left with the interesting question of whether good people in fact need to resist this temptation (to be good to a fault) when fighting evil.

[Xcorpyo001]

You don’t have to be evil to win a fight. Robb for example sent a part of the Bolton troops to engage the enemy, then act disorganized and make a hasty retreat. Many of those men were killed, but by doing that they draw the bulk of the enemy army and managed a great victory. He could have ended Tywin’s entire army then and there, if not for Edmure and his raid that made Tywin change directions at the last moment. Both Robb and Jon had the same teachers for their entire life, so Jon should know these tactics and also know that sometimes you have to make sacrifices if you want to reach your goals.

And the Lannister had Robb's sisters hostage, and he still fought them, even if there was a small chance they could be executed for his actions. Jon spent a year as a commander of the NW, had to make harsh choices(Gilly’s baby), he had the ‘kill the boy and let the man be born’ line from Aemon, plus in the show he came back to life as a changed man. Him executing Ollie should have meant that he was less inclined to listen to his heart, and listen to reason and his common sense instead. Shame that all this character development was thrown out the window in  a single scene.  

[lakin1013]

I think the problem lies in some of us want a Jon to have become different, smarter or more super-hero-ish. Sansa should have told him, but she didn't.   I think he showed us exactly who he is - a pretty decent guy who let his emotions get the best of him, at a very bad time.  He is a teenager still, he is not a seasoned battle commander yet.  If he is going to be some type of hero, we don't know that for certain yet (though resurrection is an awfully big clue :-).  He doesn't know that yet.  The books and the show are leading us in that direction and we are impatient.  

We want a perfect hero, he just isn't there ...yet.

 

PS: For those of you bringing up Robb as a good example - PUH-LEEZE.  Robb made the biggest, stupidest mistake possible and her name was Talisa.

[LordPathera]

At the point where the battle of the bastards actually starts, it's too late to anything different at this point.

So I'm stepping back a lot further.

If I were Jon, I'd have a small force raid (That's the wildlings bread and butter) supply convoys near Winterfell to fool Ramsey into thinking that I'm going to hit Winterfell. But in truth, I've gone East to takeover the lightly defended Dreadfort (Ramsey practically gathered all of his strength at Winterfell).

1) This gives me a base of operations for further battles

2) My army now has access to more supplies and equipment

3) This undermines Ramsey's power by taking the Bolton's historical capital and forces him onto Morton's fork: If he goes after me then I am now free to either engage on grounds and conditions of his choosing or to avoid Ramsey altogether and let Ramsey waste time and resources.

It would also put pressure on the Karstarks and Umbers since I would be free to conquer and attack their lands as retribution for their betrayal since they've gathered their full strength at Winterfell as well. So even if Ramsey choose the more cautious route and stayed at Winterfell, he'd risk losing face with his supporters and his men would bleed numbers as the Karstarks and Umbers fly east to secure their own lands.

4) Like Saratoga in the American Revolution, taking the Dreadfort would be a beacon to other northerners that Jon and Sansa have a realistic chance of victory. More northerners would take up arms and join Ned Stark's children along with other houses who may have decided to change their minds. You could even have the Skagosi, Manderlys and Mountain Clans pledge their support just an example (instead of omitting them entirely for the sake of contrived drama).

This also means that Jon is facing this campaign on his own momentum and his own terms. Rather than accept the false dichotomy of either going right to Winterfell or not fighting at all, I'd have him think outside of the box (as he has in past seasons) and think of ways of building support and fighting Ramsey in ways that he controls the course of the war and who has the initiative.

So by the time that the Battle of the Bastards does actually occur, Jon will be on more even footing with Ramsey, making the tension and the bloodbath actually meaningful and exciting the watch.

[tinka10]

7 hours ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

Why should Sansa offer battle tactics advice? She has no military training.  Why will Sansa try offer a plan for a trap when she knows Ramsey will figure it out?

There is a tough problem here that the one with military training is not suited to go against Ramsey.

Jon has military training and is one that can Rally and lead men.  It is clear though that he will be unable to outwit Ramsey for this is not about Jon and Ramsey.

The criticism concerning Sansa has nothing to do with the trap. Jon himself admitted a trap was 'obvious'. Knowing or not, he would have gone after Rickon regardless. It's more a matter of why she didn't tell him that she had reached out to the Vale. Her motivations are questionable, because as a consequence she sent Jon and his army to slaughter. Which puts her in a great position if she wants to inherit Winterfell without a chance of Jon opposing her. 

[Cron]

I'm a big fan of Jon Snow, and I loved Episode 609 (gave it a 9.5), but "Jon's stand" facing a full cavalry charge on foot with a sword was beyond stupid on his part, and in "the real world" would have resulted in his death 99.999% of the time or more.(I don't buy the argument that Jon has some special "survival" skill or superpower since being resurrected, the show runner said flat out after the episode that Jon's survival was luck).  My goodness, Jon almost definitely would have died even if he was facing down a cattle stampede instead of hundreds (thousands?) of cavalry with warriors swinging swords on their backs who were (presumably) actively trying to kill Jon (unlike the cattle I just mentioned)

Obviously, once Rickon was dead and Ramsay's forces were advancing, Jon needed to try to get back to his own forces, A.S.A.P.

[TheKitttenGuard]

11 minutes ago, tinka10 said:

The criticism concerning Sansa has nothing to do with the trap. Jon himself admitted a trap was 'obvious'. Knowing or not, he would have gone after Rickon regardless. It's more a matter of why she didn't tell him that she had reached out to the Vale. Her motivations are questionable, because as a consequence she sent Jon and his army to slaughter. Which puts her in a great position if she wants to inherit Winterfell without a chance of Jon opposing her. 

Many have stated Jon would of acted immensely different and would hold off going Rickon if he knew of the Vale.   The main plan people always talks involve trapping Ramsey.

I recognize some of her motives are murky but people immediately want to go to the worst reasons. They also do not want to recongize that Jon did not provide a lot of confidence to her to offer the information.

[LordPathera]

4 hours ago, Donaldys I Trumpagar said:

For Lord of the Rings fans: the same scenario happened in the Silmarillion at the start of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad.

Noldor High King Fingon had carefully laid plans to meet Morgoth's massive forces on the Anfauglith plain, using his brother Maedhros' hidden host to attack the lumbering orc legions from their side.

However Morgoth figured out this trap and set one of his own, provoking the forces of one of Fingon's captains, Gwindor of Norgothrond, by leading out Gwindor's captured brother and butchering him on the field in front of the Elvish host. Enraged, Gwindor's companies charged across the plain and many of Fingon's host followed. Maedhros, finding out some days later that Fingon abandoned the plan, came to his aid but it was too late. The Noldor pushed far into the orc lines, almost to Angband itself, but then Morgoth emptied Angband of all his reserves, encircling and completely destroying the Noldor, along with many allied Edain.

I think the moral of both accounts is this: evil is willing to use the decency of good people against them. So we are left with the interesting question of whether good people in fact need to resist this temptation (to be good to a fault) when fighting evil.

As a fellow LOTR fan, I would point out that the plan only failed because of the Easterlings.

After getting pushed back, Turgon's host of 10,000 came to his brother's aid and allowed Fingon to reorganize and push back. Then Maedhros' host came and hit Morgoth from the east. But as Morgoth let loose balrogs and dragons onto his enemies, the easterlings betrayed Maedhros and the sons of Feanor and broke Maedhros' host from within.

Also when Gwindor did charge along with Fingon's host, their ferocity was so great that Morgoth's strong "bait" host was demolished and Morgoth's plan was almost undone by how angry he'd made the noldor.

That said, good post.

[HellasLEAF]

Sansa absolutely warned Jon and he definitely ignored it. 

I would say he is lucky to be alive.  But not entirely.  His man to man combat in that chaos was impressive, certainly nothing lucky about that.  

[schweiny91]

8 hours ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

Her information would of been useless if Ramsey sniffed it out because Jon is inexperience at laying traps.

People so want Jon to be on the one to best Ramsey when he simply cannot.

he obviously didnt sniff it out as it played out so he wouldnt have even if Jon was at least made aware

[TheKitttenGuard]

Just now, schweiny91 said:

he obviously didnt sniff it out as it played out so he wouldnt have even if Jon was at least made aware

He did not sniff it out because he thought Sansa was just getting help from her big brother.  He just thinks he has to beat Jon and he has won.

If Sansa did not fully know if the Vale was going to show up then she does not need to put up an act of then not coming.

I find Jon Snow to be ill-equipped to go against Ramsey and there is a risk he will tip off Ramsey.

Jon Snow may well TPTWP and all that but Ramsey is just a bad match-up for him.

[JonSnow4President]

If I'm Jon, in the circumstances described in the OP, I like to think I keep my head after Rickon dies, and retreat back to my defensible position with the invisible trenches. Ramsey's trap is irrelevant at that point,a nd the battle will either proceed based on my defenses, or Ramsey will retreat back to Winterfell.  It's still a long shot, but it's my best chance to win given the information available to me at the time.

Going back further, I think I go and try to talk to these Manderlys that are supposedly one of the 3 most powerful houses in the North after the Boltons. None of the great houses have a female for me to marry for troops. Sansa has just been hell, so a political marriage would likely be too rough for her in the worst of circumstances (would have to be broached delicately if you love your sister at all), but given her consumated marriage is still valid, I don't think I can do anything on that front.  That means I fight with what I have, before I lose any more of my precious few troops.  In an ideal world, I try and find a better position than an open field (try and get a high ground advantage to somewhat neutralize the effectiveness of his cavalry), but ultimately, I go to fight with what I have if I can't get the Manderlys.

[Lady Lovisa]

8 hours ago, Xcorpyo001 said:

Well, there’s a lot of things that could be done differently. For instance, they could have tried to send some infiltrators to try and rescue him from inside WF, like in the books. They could have failed and we would know who those bodies on the crosses were. Without a rescue attempt, Ramsay had to flay some of his own peasants to demoralize the enemy army.

 

Second, Jon should have taken one for the team so to speak, make a shadow baby with Mel and kill Ramsay inside WF. Problem solved, no one else has to die, because no one will follow Karstark or Umber as the new Warden of the North. Or maybe Sansa could have told Jon about the Vale troops, Ramsay would remain inside WF, they would have built a battering ram big enough to also hide Wun Wun(the battering ram has a ‘roof’ of sorts, so the guys moving the ram itself are protected from arrows from above), WT impregnated in several minuets rather than months of siege.

 

Third, if I were Jon, my Wun Wun would have either a bow(like that giant that could hit a NW guy that was on top of the Wall, so a minimum of 750 feet in a vertical trajectory), or a barn door as a shield and a piece of tree as a club(I’d like to see them try to keep a shield wall while being hit with half a tree from all sides). Send Wun Wun to protect Rickon with his improvised shield, while at the same time sending Ghost to directly attack Ramsay, so he has to choose between trying to save his life by attacking Ghost and trying to hit Rickon. In the book the wildling still have wargs in their ranks. Maybe send their animals to attack Ramsay(he wouldn’t even think to look in the sky for a eagle or something, he could have easily lost an eye)  while sending some riders and Wun Wun to collect Rickon.

 

Or maybe Rickon could have used his head for a second and realized he wasn’t going to survive, and choose to bite Ramsay’s throat with his bare teeth a la Thormund, head butt him or try to wrestle the dagger and stab the bastard. He would have probably failed, but go out like a champ. He was a little wild even as a punk kid, this grown up version should have been more feral as well.

 

For those that said that Jon should have stood there and just watch as his little brother was hunted down and killed as a wild animal, all I can say is that I’m glad I’m not part of your family. He did what he could with the tools D%D put at his disposal(no Ghost, no other wargs, no weapons or shieldfor Wun Wun, etc). There was a small chance he could have saved Rickon, but he couldn’t know that Ramsay is a villain and his plans can’t fail until the last second.

 

This scene is similar to the one that happened at the start of Robert’s Rebellion. Papa Stark was being cooked in his own armor, and Brandon hanged himself trying to reach the sword to release himself and save his father. He probably knew he’d die anyway, but he had to try at least. 

 

Even after Jon sprung the trap, Ramsay did nothing to exploit the flanks. He sent his cavalry straight at Jon, so no hit from the flanks. He then started killing his own men, again a mistake. Then he sent his shield units to trap them. But, they could have been easily defeated by a Wun Wun with a weapon. Or by the archers Davos was commanding in the back. If Davos would have hold his position as he should have, he could have easily targeted the phalanx from behind or even come close and engage in a melee, making an opening for the trapped soldiers. Everybody made mistakes in this fight.

 

Oh, and let’s not forget that in the books(and early seasons of the show), all Starks are shown to be excellent tacticians, Robb being even a genius when it came to laying traps and knowing how to use the terrain to his advantage. He never lost a fight, and he always had his direwolf with him in the thick of battle. Ned once told Barristan(?!?) that if he waited for Robert and not participated as well in the planning of the battles, they’d still be fighting the rebellion. Although he might have meant it as Robert would have liked to spend most of his time drinking with his former enemies rather than actually fighting. Anyway, it’s not possible for Jon to be that bad compared to the rest of his family. He wasn’t defeated by Ramsay, he was defeated by D&D because Sansa  had to take center stage, as an apology for the last season.

 

Easily the most reasonable and well-written post about the whole Sansa/Jon plot. Cheers

[PetyrPunkinhead]

On 6/22/2016 at 2:39 AM, Smoke317 said:

He deserted and got a hot head because the letter said Ramsey wanted "Arya" back and she was somewhere out there.  He wanted to ride and join Robb but turned back with help from his nights watch brothers.  That was still early in his time at the wall.  He sure as hell wouldn't abandon the watch for Sansa who constantly reminds him he's a bastard.  So it's nowhere near the same plot and the character is not the same. It's always been Jon and Arya who are the closest. Then Robb and Bran. He didn't go after Theon when he thought he had killed Bran and Rickon.  Like Littlefinger told Lysa "Only Cat".  Jon would abandon the Watch for "Only Arya".  This is bad writing. First to get Sansa to the North. Then after the backlash of getting her raped and ruining the perceived growth she showed in the Vale, they wanted to make her some empowered heroine and in the process made Jon a fool.  I take that back. Not bad but terrible dumbass writing. They ruined the character that GRRM probably told them was the main character Jon in order to throw Sansa fans a bone.  Should have left her in the Vale and had her and LF scheme and fuck up the Freys rather than scheme and fuck up her brother and his men.  Oh my bad, "half brother" because he's just a bastard to her after all...

Well. I'll hold judgment on Sansa's deal with Littlefinger until I find out exactly what that deal was and when it was put into motion.But regardless of the conditions of that deal and when it was set in motion, it still doesn't negate my original point that Sansa's advice to Jon the night before the battle was rock solid. I don't think Jon is a fool either. I think he's young, noble, and behaved rashly (okay, you could even call it foolishly) but that still makes him far from a fool. 

And I really like the fact Sansa and Rob are now forced to "team up" because of the fact they weren't close as siblings. That makes for much more interesting twists and drama that can happen with Sansa and Baelish in the picture versus Arya. I'm curious to see where Sansa goes from here now that the Stark banners are back at WInterfell.

[TwiceBorn]

16 hours ago, jrod said:

Disagree with the whole ambush thing.  I don't think that is something a "Stark" would ever do.  They have obviously agreed to meet under truce before the battle.  It would completely dishonor Jon if he betrayed that truce and ambushed and killed Ramsey.  Doesn't matter about the Red Wedding.

I do agree I would have told Davos to lead the attack and not follow me.  But he just reacted and wasn't thinking clearly, obviously.  

Clearly I'm no Stark.

Starks are idiots who get their family and people killed over their ill sense of honor. There is no greater dishonor in my eyes than to lead people who have trusted you into lost battle, against no less but their kinsman. A battle which will end up massacre whoever might win, all the while you are so desperate for men to fight yet another war. A war with creatures that are indifferent weather you are knightly or not. War in which honor is an abstract, meaningless concept.

Compared to Bloodraven executing Aenys Blackfyre (to whom he promised safety), or Jaime killing Mad King, assassinating Ramsey Bolton would mean no dishonor at all. Most northmen would justify this on pragmatic basis like they did when they refused Starks or even sided with Boltons. Do you know what North remembers in the show? "Winner is always right".

A duty of a knight is to protect the weak... not you honor.

[Smoke317]

36 minutes ago, PetyrPunkinhead said:

Well. I'll hold judgment on Sansa's deal with Littlefinger until I find out exactly what that deal was and when it was put into motion.But regardless of the conditions of that deal and when it was set in motion, it still doesn't negate my original point that Sansa's advice to Jon the night before the battle was rock solid. I don't think Jon is a fool either. I think he's young, noble, and behaved rashly (okay, you could even call it foolishly) but that still makes him far from a fool. 

And I really like the fact Sansa and Rob are now forced to "team up" because of the fact they weren't close as siblings. That makes for much more interesting twists and drama that can happen with Sansa and Baelish in the picture versus Arya. I'm curious to see where Sansa goes from here now that the Stark banners are back at WInterfell.

I don't think the show runners have the guts to double down on where they have taken Sansa's character this year. Her turning dark and becoming a scheming game player will be better than this half hearted stuff they had her do this year.  They wanted to give Sansa her moment but they didn't have to make Jon look foolish. They could have had them unified and still made Sansa look good and Jon as well. If they just brush this under the rug and all's forgiven, I think it was terrible writing and character assisination for both. But if they run with Sansa wanting power and not trusting Jon and viewing him as a rival this will all make sense.  I've never been a Sansa fan and Jon is one of my favorites but I would enjoy to see Sansa turn heel.  As long as they drop the pouty, whiny spoiled brat shit (maybe that's just Sophie's acting style) and make her come across as more commanding. It could make for a very interesting first half of season 7.  Sansa & LF vs Jon, Bran, and Arya in a power struggle for the North. Maybe not going to actual battle but more political intrigue like in KL.  Then have Dany finishing the Lannisters in the South. Then we can have the Walkers hit and have the second half of season 7 be the War for Dawn with Jon & Dany combining forces. 

[PetyrPunkinhead]

35 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

I don't think the show runners have the guts to double down on where they have taken Sansa's character this year. Her turning dark and becoming a scheming game player will be better than this half hearted stuff they had her do this year.  They wanted to give Sansa her moment but they didn't have to make Jon look foolish. They could have had them unified and still made Sansa look good and Jon as well. If they just brush this under the rug and all's forgiven, I think it was terrible writing and character assisination for both. But if they run with Sansa wanting power and not trusting Jon and viewing him as a rival this will all make sense.  I've never been a Sansa fan and Jon is one of my favorites but I would enjoy to see Sansa turn heel.  As long as they drop the pouty, whiny spoiled brat shit (maybe that's just Sophie's acting style) and make her come across as more commanding. It could make for a very interesting first half of season 7.  Sansa & LF vs Jon, Bran, and Arya in a power struggle for the North. Maybe not going to actual battle but more political intrigue like in KL.  Then have Dany finishing the Lannisters in the South. Then we can have the Walkers hit and have the second half of season 7 be the War for Dawn with Jon & Dany combining forces. 

I was never really a true Sansa fan either until this season. I think she became more sympathetic and I was rooting for her escape from King's Landing after Jeoffery began torturing her, but I still found her annoying more often than not. I'm curious though what the show runners "doubling down" on Sansa for you would mean. I think it's pretty clear her goal was to escape Ramsay and then secure her family's home. Now that that is done I think her character could go either way. She's smart enough now, I think, to realize there is no "Team Littlefinger." So her not joining him and going "Team Jon" is plausible. However, Baelish is the only one who listens to Sansa and believes she is a true player in "the game" (or at least makes her feel that way) and Jon did the opposite and didn't follow Sansa's warning and nearly lost the battle. She had no great love for Jon as a child. So Sansa continuing to lie to Jon and forming an alliance with Baelish through marriage is also plausible. And there's probably a third or fourth way Sansa could go that I'm not thinking of at the moment either. Basically I'm way more interested to see how Sansa progresses in S6E10 than any other character. 

And I don't think Jon making the mistake of charging after Bran is character assassination anymore than Ned Stark making the error of warning Cersei in KL of his knowledge of her affair with Jamie is character assassination. Jon is inherently noble, which Ramsay played off of ingeniously to his advantage. I just hope Jon can learn from Sansa (and Ramsay) and put more strategy and ruthlessness into play in the future. Otherwise the rest of Westeros will likely fuck him up before the Night King even makes it to the Wall. 

[plastic throne]

2 hours ago, TwiceBorn said:

Clearly I'm no Stark.

Starks are idiots who get their family and people killed over their ill sense of honor. There is no greater dishonor in my eyes than to lead people who have trusted you into lost battle, against no less but their kinsman. A battle which will end up massacre whoever might win, all the while you are so desperate for men to fight yet another war. A war with creatures that are indifferent weather you are knightly or not. War in which honor is an abstract, meaningless concept.

Compared to Bloodraven executing Aenys Blackfyre (to whom he promised safety), or Jaime killing Mad King, assassinating Ramsey Bolton would mean no dishonor at all. Most northmen would justify this on pragmatic basis like they did when they refused Starks or even sided with Boltons. Do you know what North remembers in the show? "Winner is always right".

A duty of a knight is to protect the weak... not you honor.

Excellent post, especially about the 'North remembers' part. North didn't mind Ramsey killing his own father and throwing fat Walda (and child) to the dogs, in broad daylight. Why would they care about assassination which, in the end, will spare lives. Plus Rickon would live.

Also, decision/assassination that would turn up to be very pragmatic given they'll need every soldier (and then some) in the fight against the WW. There's just no time for honor right now. Starks (though my favorite family in GoT universe), indeed, are idiots.