What would you do differently as Jon Snow

[TheKitttenGuard]

12 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Okay, then Jon accepts that Sansa is right. And there is no hope of really going on the tactical offense against Ramsay, so Jon decides to withdraw. He tells Sansa he is going to withdraw and Sansa says nothing, even though she knows Vale forces might be in the area. Makes perfect sense.

 

Except for when it's Sansa's planned trapped evidently. Or Little Finger's planned trapped.

If the idea here is that the best way to defeat Ramsay militarily is through a disorganized, unplanned, and uncoordinated gaggle fuck, then really the show has truly gone of the rails here. What a bunch of frickin nonsense.

Well Jon may just need to understand the trap part will not most likely to work and needs to hold of against Ramsay full force in the end.

Yeah he can be petulant also.

Sansa is not planning for their arrival and is acting in that manner.  For all she know LF will just blow her off and she missed the chance.  She is doing her most to think and act on it.

I am not saying unplanned or unorganized.   You just cannot plan to trap Ramsay.

[OldGimletEye]

1 minute ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

Well Jon may just need to understand the trap part will not most likely to work and needs to hold of against Ramsay full force in the end.

Jon's main plan is to let Ramsay come to him. If Sansa doesn't believe that Ramsay will do that, she needs to state that. And I guess recommend for Jon to attack Ramsay on the battlefield. Except to Jon,Davos, Tormund, experienced soldiers and warriors, that would come off like pure nonsense and just seem generally fucking insane, without knowledge of the Vale soldiers.

The problem for Sansa here is she can't sit there and say "he won't fall for your trap, so you should attack his forces" and not tell them about the Vale, without looking like she is spewing crazy and dangerous nonsense.

7 minutes ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

Sansa is not planning for their arrival and is acting in that manner.  For all she know LF will just blow her off and she missed the chance.  She is doing her most to think and act on it.

Yeah, right. LF marched them to the Neck to play tiddly winks. And then he might have marched them around WF, as far as Sansa might know, because playing tiddly winks is better near Winterfell than it is in the Neck.

But, seriously, she must at least suspect they are in the area. And if Jon knows they might be in the area...what does he do? He sends a few scouts to find them and to verify their location. And if Sansa has doubts about whether LF will enter the fray, then she can simply communicate that information to Jon.

[OldGimletEye]

14 minutes ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

I am not saying unplanned or unorganized.   You just cannot plan to trap Ramsay.

Of course you do know Sansa's military opinion's get undercut when she says she knows nothing about battles. And yeah, basically you're saying let's just hope the Vale forces come and cross our fingers and hope for the best and not try to coordinate or plan this thing a little.

[TheKitttenGuard]

37 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Jon's main plan is to let Ramsay come to him. If Sansa doesn't believe that Ramsay will do that, she needs to state that. And I guess recommend for Jon to attack Ramsay on the battlefield. Except to Jon,Davos, Tormund, experienced soldiers and warriors, that would come off like pure nonsense and just seem generally fucking insane, without knowledge of the Vale soldiers.

The problem for Sansa here is she can't sit there and say "he won't fall for your trap, so you should attack his forces" and not tell them about the Vale, without looking like she is spewing crazy and dangerous nonsense.

Yeah, right. LF marched them to the Neck to play tiddly winks. And then he might have marched them around WF, as far as Sansa might know, because playing tiddly winks is better near Winterfell than it is in the Neck.

But, seriously, she must at least suspect they are in the area. And if Jon knows they might be in the area...what does he do? He sends a few scouts to find them and to verify their location. And if Sansa has doubts about whether LF will enter the fray, then she can simply communicate that information to Jon.

Jon is planning to trap Ramsay forces.

A defensive position is better since Jon has fewer numbers. So they hold Ramsay will at some commit the bulk of his force.  It is not to trap them but to be engaged until the Vale comes.

Jon is the one who decided to March on Winterfell and Sansa sent the letter after his decision.  So she did not have acontrol in the decision to engage and she was not comfortable when Jon showed he does not know Ramsay.

33 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Of course you do know Sansa's military opinion's get undercut when she says she knows nothing about battles. And yeah, basically you're saying let's just hope the Vale forces come and cross our fingers and hope for the best and not try to coordinate or plan this thing a little.

In many ways it is at this point.

 Sansa does not know battle yet she needs to come up with some alternative to Jon plan. At the same time her observation of what will not work does not matter because she is not a military mind.  

Ramsey is a dangerous foe not to be underestimated.  

You may well have some fair points but Jon showed he does not know Ramsey and it make matters more risky then they already are.  

[jandslegate]

In general, I'd ask the writers not to make me look stupid just to make others look smart by comparison. 

[OldGimletEye]

11 minutes ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

Jon is planning to trap Ramsay forces.

A defensive position is better since Jon has fewer numbers. So they hold Ramsay will at some commit the bulk of his force.  It is not to trap them but to be engaged until the Vale comes.

Jon is the one who decided to March on Winterfell and Sansa sent the letter after his decision.  So she did not have acontrol in the decision to engage and she was not comfortable when Jon showed he does not know Ramsay. 

So basically she says, "he won't fall into your traps" or whatever, but basically believes Jon, Davos, and Tormund have planned and devised the correct tactical disposition, particularly given their lack of knowledge about the Vale forces.

But, she just wants to say "he won't fall into your traps" because of reasons.

11 minutes ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

Sansa does not know battle yet she needs to come up with some alternative to Jon plan. At the same time her observation of what will not work does not matter because she is not a military mind.  

So she isn't a military mind. Says she isn't a military mind, but yet presumes to come up with another plan? And her plan is better because it basically is just some kind of hail mary pass? Because the best way to defeat Ramsay is just to do everything unplanned and hope for the best?

Somebody is talking real nonsense here. Maybe it's the show being nonsensical here. Or maybe it's Sansa being nonsensical here. I don't know. But, something here does not compute.

[HellasLEAF]

13 hours ago, watcher of the night said:

Sansa gave the most general advice without going into into details. She could have given the advice: (1) in front of the war council, (2) in more depth,i.e. what kind of traps are expected from Ramsay, (3) specifying detials what not to do: i.e tell Thormund and Davos not to allow Jon to do stupid things or at least not to endanger the whole army. She did none of that, she spoke only after the meeting and even there she gave the most vague advice.

She said she knew nothing about battles.  Just repeatedly told him he sets traps, is very smart and to do the opposite of what he wants you to do.  

[Kytheros]

There are only two acceptable reasons for Sansa to have not told Jon about the Knights of the Vale being a possibility earlier on, much less on the eve of battle. She could even have glossed over Littlefinger's earlier offer and rejection, saying she got a message from them via a courier or something, that said her cousin sent them to help her.

Option 1: She was setting Jon up to go out fighting Ramsay, hopefully taking Ramsay out in the process, but at minimum, weakening Ramsay's forces.

Option 2: She is keeping Jon out of making a deal with Littlefinger so that she can deny a deal was made and kill Littlefinger. Or she's otherwise planning to move against Littlefinger, and is keeping Jon in the dark to better manipulate him towards the end she wants.

Personally, I'm hoping like hell that it's some form of Option 2.

 

Jon screwed up when he charged after Rickon died. Nobody denies that.
But I think a large part of why he charged was despair - he knew he didn't have the men to win no matter what he did, so he might as well see if he can get lucky and get Ramsay. In that moment, knowing he doesn't have the men to win the battle, no matter what he does, getting Ramsay would be worth it - without Ramsay, there is (or should be) no one to contest Sansa Stark over the North.
I think that if Jon knew that the Vale was coming, and everything right up to Rickon getting shot plays out the same, Jon doesn't charge Ramsay's lines, he returns to his own lines, maybe grabbing Rickon's body first.
I suspect that if Jon turns back, Ramsay might've sent his cavalry after Jon anyways, the Stark-loyal cavalry then gets sent out to cover Jon, and the battle can still play out more or less as it did, but the events immediately surrounding the battle don't butcher Jon and Sansa's established characters and personalities. It still butchers what's been established about the rest of the North, but in order for this battle to even come remotely close to happening the way it did, that's inevitable.

[TheKitttenGuard]

8 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

So basically she says, "he won't fall into your traps" or whatever, but basically believes Jon, Davos, and Tormund have planned and devised the correct tactical disposition, particularly given their lack of knowledge about the Vale forces.

But, she just wants to say "he won't fall into your traps" because of reasons.

So she isn't a military mind. Says she isn't a military mind, but yet presumes to come up with another plan? And her plan is better because it basically is just some kind of hail mary pass? Because the best way to defeat Ramsay is just to do everything unplanned and hope for the best?

Somebody is talking real nonsense here. Maybe it's the show being nonsensical here. Or maybe it's Sansa being nonsensical here. I don't know. But, something here does not compute.

Sansa understand and stated that Ramsey does not fall for traps. She may not know if the plan is good but knows the trap part will not work.

Not every military plan involves a designed trap.  I do not see how do not plan a trap is equal to do nothing but you are making it one and the same.

Yes Sansa action. better because she knows Ramsey and Jon does not. 

No I am not talking nonsense.  People just want Jon to figure it out when he cannot in this particular situtation.  People rather Rant then accept that Jon was not the one to beat Ramsey.

 

[TheKitttenGuard]

Option 3:

Sansa did not initial tell Jon because LF half-brother was to sow doubt so she does not LF to have involvement unless absolutely needed for LF will manipulate the situtation.

She may of been open on the eve of battle but Jon demostrated that he does not know Ramsey.

Though for many it is just easier to see Sansa as a horrible person.

[lancerman]

I probably just realize that Rickon is a lost cause like Sansa deduced and realize that anything up to that point was just a strategy by Ramsay. R

Realistically if I'm Jon, I go to Davos, turn my head and have him tell me when it's over.

As for a battle strategy. They were fucked anyways. Best case was to get Ramsay to charge and use arches to mow as many down as possible. Get them on your side of the field and get as many as humanly possible dismounted. Keep them out of range of Ramsay's archers and make any strategic maneuvers more difficult. That includes spreading the battle into different trenches.

 

 

[Ashes Of Westeros]

It isn't clear from the show if Sansa got a reply from LF if he comes for help. Why should she tell Jon about smth she isn't sure about? It would only confuse him. Brienne hasn't come with the reply from the BF either. So the safest way would be to win some time, that is what Sansa tries to convince Jon to do.

I like Jon very much, I think he's a charismatic leader, but he really knows nothing. He has poor analitical skills so he has no clue about people's intentions and don't try to figure them out. That made him fell in Ramsay's trap with Rickon. Besides that cluelessness got him killed on the Wall, because he failed to sense the mutiny. He really needs a preson by his side who would deal with schems and strategy (I'm looking at you, Sansa).

[abouththeotherknight]

Jon by going after Rickon set a perfect trap if Jon had been more prepared. I as the armchair insomniac general that I am would have dug trenches screened by infantry and dropped massive amounts of caltrops and ensuring my Calvary stuck to the flanks. Being Jon gave Ramsay the uphill advantage he could have drawn the Bolton army to the tree line and used his bowman to thin the Bolton army. Ramsay was confident and given his character probably over confident. Instead of charging en masses like a barbarian horde why couldn't Jon kept tight discipline using a Roman like cohort system allowing maneuverability in blocks. Using the freefolk as shock troops to support waivering battle lines. Jon should have read Ceasars commentaries, legionaries won battles with as much a shovel as with a sword. Luck is a huge part of warfare and Jon definitely tested it. Larger armies don't guarantee success people bring up cannae but also Alesia pharsalus, agincourt, this grammar less insomniac thinks Jon was steeped in tactics and strategy by Ned look at Robb's success in his early battles. Jon could have saved a lot more lives with a little more preparation. A good speech to his troops the shock value of wun wun maybe a demonstration of his courage over Ramsey's to show the Bolton army who the better man was. I don't know still a great episode goodnight

[Slaysman]

It is easy to look on any battle in hindsight and say what to do differently. Jon acted as any human would upon seeing the murder of a family member in front of them. It could also be that when he came back the piece that he lost was the mental switch to stop you from going into an irrational rage. Either way it was a poor decision, there is no denying that.

As for Sansa, considering everything her character has gone through she has severe trust issues. I for one cannot really blame her. Now having a mini-tantrum because no one asked her opinion of the battle was a bit unnecessary. I do respect the fact she waited until she was alone with Jon to say that she knows the man they are fighting. Okay, that is all well and good, but what did she really offer as advice? Do not fall into a trap, Ramsey will not fall into a trap. That advice was so vague as to be entirely useless. Holding the secret that the Vale army may be on its way? Stupid decision. As someone posted earlier Jon could have sent a couple scouts to verify their movement.

Between Jon and Sansa they both nearly lost the only chance of reclaiming Winterfell and the North.

Of course this is Show Jon and Show Sansa.

Book wise 9.9 times out of 10 Jon Snow wipes the floor with Ramsey, and Sansa is a non-issue since she is in the Vale.