Crypts of Winterfel

[Tom Cruise]

I've been reading about the Winterfel crypts via the search asoiaf tool.  Amazing how many times they come up throughout the books.  

So they're full of dead Stark Kings, which would make for some great tales for Old Nan to tell Bran, but in a world where we've already seen the dead come back to 'life' it kind of does make you wonder.  

A lot of people have already discussed the possibility of the original Stark sword Ice being in the crypts.  Do we have potential for an undead Stark King wielding Ice?  Considering the trouble Starks go through to make sure their own are buried in the crypts, maybe the first Nights King is also buried there?  It's fun to think The Wall and what has become the fortress of Winterfel were built to keep The Others away from these dead Stark Kings, and resurrecting them.  It's very convenient the local hot springs keep things warm even during winter.  Maybe they're not so natural after all?

I also noticed early in GoT when Ned and Robert are entering the crypts Ned feels a "cold breath."  Every other time the phrase "cold breath" is used in all asoiaf it's always associated with death.

I am really starting to believe we will see something come out of those crypts, or something try to get into them.  I do not know if it will be good or bad.  I think Hodor knows what to do with the Ironwood door at the entrance, but what side of it will he be on?

[Curled Finger]

Oh Brother, there is definitely something down there.  Probably more than 1 or 2 things.   As to your undead Starks...those irons swords are supposed to prevent the spirits from wandering.   We know 4 of those binding irons are gone.   Interesting that the Lady of the Barrow Lands is the one who knows this...hmm, you could actually be on to something here.   I love to ponder the possibilities down in the crypts.  I hope you get 400 replies tonight!   

[Alaynsa Starne]

21 minutes ago, Tom Cruise said:

Do we have potential for an undead Stark King wielding Ice?

See: Jon Snow. 

[Lord Cactus]

As much as I would love for the Night's King to be buried down there, I have a feeling that since all records have been destroyed of him, he wasn't going to receive a decent burial like the other men down there.

However, the king Brandon the Breaker has potential to be down there....

I think the main thing we are going to get out of the crypts, though, is whatever is built in the most recent tombs. Sooner or later, someone is going to have to explore Lyanna's.

[Macgregor of the North]

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Oh Brother, there is definitely something down there.  Probably more than 1 or 2 things.   As to your undead Starks...those irons swords are supposed to prevent the spirits from wandering.   We know 4 of those binding irons are gone.   Interesting that the Lady of the Barrow Lands is the one who knows this...hmm, you could actually be on to something here.   I love to ponder the possibilities down in the crypts.  I hope you get 400 replies tonight!   

Also some of the older ones from grim kings tombs are rusted away. Ned wonders do they roam the castle now?

[Macgregor of the North]

4 hours ago, Tom Cruise said:

I've been reading about the Winterfel crypts via the search asoiaf tool.  Amazing how many times they come up throughout the books.  

So they're full of dead Stark Kings, which would make for some great tales for Old Nan to tell Bran, but in a world where we've already seen the dead come back to 'life' it kind of does make you wonder.  

A lot of people have already discussed the possibility of the original Stark sword Ice being in the crypts.  Do we have potential for an undead Stark King wielding Ice?  Considering the trouble Starks go through to make sure their own are buried in the crypts, maybe the first Nights King is also buried there?  It's fun to think The Wall and what has become the fortress of Winterfel were built to keep The Others away from these dead Stark Kings, and resurrecting them.  It's very convenient the local hot springs keep things warm even during winter.  Maybe they're not so natural after all?

I also noticed early in GoT when Ned and Robert are entering the crypts Ned feels a "cold breath."  Every other time the phrase "cold breath" is used in all asoiaf it's always associated with death.

I am really starting to believe we will see something come out of those crypts, or something try to get into them.  I do not know if it will be good or bad.  I think Hodor knows what to do with the Ironwood door at the entrance, but what side of it will he be on?

Everything about the crypts is super interesting, its worthy of a thread to just discuss the crypts themselves.

Like the narrow winding stone staircase that must be descended in single file. Are all the pillars, stone sepulchres and statues part of the stone that is already part of the foundations of the crypts themselves and are simply chiselled out of it? or is large pieces of granite moved down this narrow winding staircase? Or is there another entrance somewhere we havent heard of?

Is the floor Ned takes Robert to the first floor down? It seems so. And when they wander down the passage with the Kings and the Lords facing them, are the statues and tombs on their righthand side or lefthand side? It seems they are only on one side. And how far down does the passage go after the tombs for Ned and his kids? Is it endless, surely not. If all Neds sons had kids with the Stark name were they all to be buried on this same floor? What happens when this floor fills up? Are the other floors below empty and ready for more tombs or are these floors filled already with every king of the north and his family strecthing back 8000 years?

Back to the winding staircase at the entrance, it seems to wind down and have openings coming off of it at the entrance to each floor. How much floors are there in total? How far do the stairs descend? Is there another door at the very bottom level that perhaps leads to a tunnel structure leading somewhere? Mayhaps this is the door(if there is such a door) that Hodor knows something about?

So much more questions concerning these crypts.   

[Lord Vance II]

5 hours ago, Tom Cruise said:

I also noticed early in GoT when Ned and Robert are entering the crypts Ned feels a "cold breath."  Every other time the phrase "cold breath" is used in all asoiaf it's always associated with death.

I mean, they are in place full of dead people...

But yeah, there has to be something significant down there. I like the idea that Rhaegar's harp is somewhere down there to give evidence to R+L=J. Or that the original Ice (made of actual ice, not the Valyrian steel sword) is down there.

And I know it's super unlikely, but a sleeping dragon or dragon eggs? Something else in a secret chamber built by Bran the Builder? A massive cache of dragon glass weapons? 

Damn near anything could be down there, which makes it fun. Personally I don't think it will involve resurrected Starks (except maybe Jon of course), but I wouldn't be mad it it did. 

1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Are all the pillars, stone sepulchres and statues part of the stone that is already part of the foundations of the crypts themselves and are simply chiselled out of it? or is large pieces of granite moved down this narrow winding staircase? Or is there another entrance somewhere we havent heard of?

Their construction itself has always been interesting. If it has 9000 years worth of Kings, that would mean at least 750 or so. Was it built as is or did other Kings of Winter add to it? How big is it? The castle was built up over time, was it there from the very beginning?

It seems far more extensive than the barrows elsewhere in the North. Honestly, it seems like a gigantic project just to put dead bodies, especially for a conservative house like the Starks. They aren't exactly Pharaohs. 

Something else has to be down there, and probably something very, very old. 

[Macgregor of the North]

11 minutes ago, Lord Vance II said:

I mean, they are in place full of dead people...

But yeah, there has to be something significant down there. I like the idea that Rhaegar's harp is somewhere down there to give evidence to R+L=J. Or that the original Ice (made of actual ice, not the Valyrian steel sword) is down there.

And I know it's super unlikely, but a sleeping dragon or dragon eggs? Something else in a secret chamber built by Bran the Builder? A massive cache of dragon glass weapons? 

Damn near anything could be down there, which makes it fun. Personally I don't think it will involve resurrected Starks (except maybe Jon of course), but I wouldn't be mad it it did. 

Their construction itself has always been interesting. If it has 9000 years worth of Kings, that would mean at least 750 or so. Was it built as is or did other Kings of Winter add to it? How big is it? The castle was built up over time, was it there from the very beginning?

It seems far more extensive than the barrows elsewhere in the North. Honestly, it seems like a gigantic project just to put dead bodies, especially for a conservative house like the Starks. They aren't exactly Pharaohs. 

Something else has to be down there, and probably something very, very old. 

Yeah A sleeping Dragon may be unlikely if the theories that mention the hot springs keeping it warm etc are true. The springs don't seem to heat the crypts, it's always cold down there. 

It must be absolutely massive down there with more than a secret or two, this thread has awoken my interest in it again. I had been focusing on Ben Stark and Faceless men lately but now my searches are on the crypts again. In my searches I did answer one of my own questions I was unsure about. The statues and tombs are not just on one side of the passages, they are on each side. I couldn't remember if this was the way of the layout and thought the statues maybe lined only one side for some reason.

The double row surely means there are rows on each side of the passage ways down there. That means more lords and kings per floor, but there will still surely be a good few floors.

ACOK BRAN VII:

"Never moving his broken body, he reached out all the same, and for an instant he was seeing double. There stood Osha holding the torch, and Meera and Jojen and Hodor, and the double row of tall granite pillars and long dead lords behind them stretching away into darkness . . . "

[XIIIsnow]

I think that Starks night of the living dead would be very chip...and It would be very disappointing... I don't think that anything is lurking down there, because Starks are comfortable to go in (except when they were kids), but something is hidden definitely, something important for Jon's arc. Remember his dreams. But, R+L=Ј is so obvious and popular, that I am almost certain that is not true  GRRM is going to make us all mad, once again :)Anyway, there is some sort of "treasure" hidden, maybe Winter Crown, or original Ice, or anything else important for the battle for the Dawn (maybe the original light bringer?) Or maybe some info - about Jon's parents? But I would like to see that actually Bran is making Jon dreaming of crypts, because he is down there, sitting in the roots of Winterfell tree  That would be cool, but I am not sure that crypts goes underneath the weirwood tree of Winterfell...

[Tom Cruise]

I find The "cold breath" very interesting.  The hot springs may be natural or magic or a combination of both.  I think the coldness of the crypts is completely unnatural.  The further into the earth you go the warmer it should get.  As far as I know this is always true in real life.  We know in the books that The Others always bring the cold with them.

[CJDTrismegistus]

I think the WoIaF mentions a sleeping dragon under Winterfell.  But I guess if you interpret Summer's description of the sack of Winterfell in one way - "The smoke and ash clouded his eyes, and in the sky he saw a great winged snake whose roar was a river of flame." - then the dragon is no longer sleeping!

[YOVMO]

8 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Lady of the Barrow Lands is the one who knows this

this always struck me as being really odd.

[YOVMO]

7 hours ago, Alaynsa Starne said:

See: Jon Snow. 

I think he is already wielding Blackfyre and he is more likely a Targ king than a stark one.

[Lord Vance II]

9 minutes ago, Tom Cruise said:

I find The "cold breath" very interesting.  The hot springs may be natural or magic or a combination of both.  I think the coldness of the crypts is completely unnatural.  The further into the earth you go the warmer it should get.  As far as I know this is always true in real life.  We know in the books that The Others always bring the cold with them.

I think the hot springs may be magical somehow, but Winterfell is such a massive castle I think its possible that the springs just aren't near the crypts. A couple hundred feet of rock/earth and a thick stone wall would be enough to insulate the cold of the crypts. I don't think the crypts are ever described as dank or wet at all. 

It doesn't necessarily get warmer when you go down, it's just not as affected by outside temp. If you went a few hundred feet down a coal mine on a frigid day it would be warmer there just because it's insulated from the outside. It's still cold, just not as cold. It gets warmer if you go WAY down. 

 

[YOVMO]

7 hours ago, Lord Cactus said:

I think the main thing we are going to get out of the crypts, though, is whatever is built in the most recent tombs. Sooner or later, someone is going to have to explore Lyanna's.

This is right. Ned had Lyanna buried in those crypts despite 8000 years of stark tradition. I can't believe it is just because he really loved his sister. That tomb has something to it.

 

This makes me wonder, however, where are the other starks. I mean, traditionally the Kings of Winter were buried in the crypts and, after Torrhen Stark knelt, the Lords of Winterfell. I would imagine that most the Kings of Winter and Lords of Winterfell had brothers and sisters. Where are all those other Stark men buried.

Eddard's father Rickard seems only to have had a sisters, both of which were married and presumably buried along with their husbands. But what about, say, the twins Cregan and Torrhen (sons of Edric Stark)....what did they do with them, just dump them in a pile.

Ned's great grand uncle Artos Stark was never lord of Winterfell but they have him a spot in the crypt. It seems that who gets put in the crypt is really random.

As a side note, I always got the feel that the Winterfell Crypts were a lot like the Vatican Crypts.

[YOVMO]

1 hour ago, Lord Vance II said:

Their construction itself has always been interesting. If it has 9000 years worth of Kings, that would mean at least 750 or so. Was it built as is or did other Kings of Winter add to it? How big is it? The castle was built up over time, was it there from the very beginning?

There are over 150 popes entombed in the crypts at the Vatican and they didn't have the same magical building expertise of Bran the Builder.

That said, I can totally see, every couple hundred years, a new tunnel and corridor being build.

[YOVMO]

1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Yeah A sleeping Dragon may be unlikely if the theories that mention the hot springs keeping it warm etc are true. The springs don't seem to heat the crypts, it's always cold down there. 

a lot of talk about an ice dragon. Good place for it. That said, I don't think there is an actual dragon buried there but, rather, that the sleeping dragon under winterfell is the wroth of the north after getting fucked by the south.

The North Remembers.

[Macgregor of the North]

3 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

This is right. Ned had Lyanna buried in those crypts despite 8000 years of stark tradition. I can't believe it is just because he really loved his sister. That tomb has something to it.

 

This makes me wonder, however, where are the other starks. I mean, traditionally the Kings of Winter were buried in the crypts and, after Torrhen Stark knelt, the Lords of Winterfell. I would imagine that most the Kings of Winter and Lords of Winterfell had brothers and sisters. Where are all those other Stark men buried.

Eddard's father Rickard seems only to have had a sisters, both of which were married and presumably buried along with their husbands. But what about, say, the twins Cregan and Torrhen (sons of Edric Stark)....what did they do with them, just dump them in a pile.

Ned's great grand uncle Artos Stark was never lord of Winterfell but they have him a spot in the crypt. It seems that who gets put in the crypt is really random.

As a side note, I always got the feel that the Winterfell Crypts were a lot like the Vatican Crypts.

Artos I personally believe got a statue because he held Willams son Edwyles place as Lord even though Edwyle was young and ruled well in his name. I believe Edwyle gave him a statue outta love and respect for him, and also because he avenged his father Willam at long lake. 

[Lord Vance II]

3 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

There are over 150 popes entombed in the crypts at the Vatican and they didn't have the same magical building expertise of Bran the Builder.

The Vatican is half as old as Winterfell at it's youngest. 

It makes sense that it would have to be expanded, but kind of takes a lot of the mystery out for me. 

[YOVMO]

1 minute ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Artos I personally believe got a statue because he held Willams son Edwyles place as Lord even though Edwyle was young and ruled well in his name. I believe Edwyle gave him a statue outta love and respect for him, and also because he avenged his father Willam at long lake. 

That would be my take to. And giving Brandon one makes sense as he would have been the lord of winterfell if not for his early death. Lyanna is still, as far as I can tell, the only woman buried down there (where are all the queens of winter buried....maybe a mass grave?). It does make it seem that who gets put in the crypt with a statue has a lot more to do with the current King of Winer / Lord of Winterfell than it does with any particularly strict rules or customs the way that ownership of Ice was transferred.