The origin of the Ironborn

[Valens]

This is a topic that has puzzled me for some time now. Are the Ironborn descended from the First Men or do they come from some unknown land west of the Sunset Sea? One thing that speaks for the theory of First Men descent is their practice of thralldom. One thing that speaks against it is that they don't worship the Old Gods. There are many things that sets them apart from The Northerners for instance. Appearance-wise, they are not very different but otherwise they lead a totally different lifestyle and their belief in the Drowned God is really special. Your thoughts?

[GallowsKnight]

First men and Andals like everyone but the North. Their isolation from the mainland is why the first men didn't worship the Old Gods. The Andals conquered them too, but the religion didn't stick.

Though when people say "by the Old Gods and the New", I imagine they include the Drowned god under "Old gods".

This isn't just my thoughts, it's the belief of Westerosi Maester as shown in the World of Ice and Fire book.

[MinotaurWarrior]

I'll just add that it appears that the Ironborn religion is likely a variant of the pre-pact First Men religion. The older gods, if you will. We know that, at very least, their devil the storm God was believed in in the distant Stormlands, and it makes sense that the worship of the gods in the trees never spread to those desolate islands. 

 

Also, the Ironborn are most likely the most genetically diverse ethnic group on westeros, because of their habit of rowing to new, exotic lands, and kidnapping the women.

[GoWesteros]

If they are First Men descendants their worship of the Drowned God isn't so far fetched. If the Old Gods of The North is all about nature then it's not A far stretch to consider water a part of that. I like to think that the original Ironborn were A sect of First Men that wanted to keep going west to see what they could find. The water they crossed from the Sunset Coast to the Islands could have easily gone down through the generations as the sacred waters that carried them to their sacred home, eventually developing into the Drowned God with traditions developing overtime. 

[Lord Vance II]

1 hour ago, GallowsKnight said:

First men and Andals like everyone but the North. Their isolation from the mainland is why the first men didn't worship the Old Gods.

They claim they're something different, but that's the most likely explanation. If the Seastone Chair was already there though......

I've always thought of their worship of the Drowned God like a Greek city-state having their patron god. Over time, the rest faded away and only the Drowned God was kept. 

43 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

Also, the Ironborn are most likely the most genetically diverse ethnic group on westeros, because of their habit of rowing to new, exotic lands, and kidnapping the women.

They are as big of mutts as exist in the known world. 

To me their mystery lies in the Seastone Chair (I'm admittedly an 'oily black stone' fan). If it truly was there to greet them when the first Ironborn landed, then it opens a whole new discussion, but I doubt we'll ever know. Nagga is fascinating too..really the whole Ironborn lore. 

[Maester of Valyria]

The Ironborn were originally First Men who travelled over by land from the Westerlands, since the Iron Islands at that time were contiguous with the mainland. When the Breaking occured sea levels rose globally and the Islands were cut off both from the rest of Westeros and from each other.

The Seastone Chair may be a remnant of a pre-First Men civilisation, an artifact of the Children, Others, or Deep Ones, or a GeoDawnian artifact.

[joluoto2]

Yeah, they are of First Men origin. Too many things in their culture is like ancient First Men customs. They were probably never affected with the pact. Their traditions even have an evil tree (Ygg), which can be seen as a remnant of stories about the wars with the Children.

[YOVMO]

1 hour ago, Maester of Valyria said:

The Seastone Chair

The seastone chair and bones of naga are two of the biggest mysteries. There is something there and I can't pin it down. Rather, it is pinned down to so many things that it just doesn't make sense. More data needed.

[YOVMO]

4 hours ago, Valens said:

Are the Ironborn descended from the First Men or do they come from some unknown land west of the Sunset Sea?

I would say pre-pact first men. They seem more like the first men who came with Bronze and killed the CoTF.

 

Possibly, Ironborn are from first men who dissented with the prevailing wisdom that the pact needed to happen and between their isolation and the evolution of mainland first men into the religion of the COTF the differences are understandable.

[Valens]

7 hours ago, YOVMO said:

The seastone chair and bones of naga are two of the biggest mysteries. There is something there and I can't pin it down. Rather, it is pinned down to so many things that it just doesn't make sense. More data needed.

In The World of Ice and Fire, it is said the Seastone Chair was inherited, or found by Ironborn when they came there. It is indeed a mystery how it was created and by who. Children of the Forest didn't go to the Islands because there was no forest there, simply. So...it is either a natural formation or maybe the Drowned God really exists.

[TheSovereignGrave]

They're simply First Men with Andal (and presumably a good number of other peoples from their reaving) admixture. They wouldn't even be the only First Men who didn't worship the Old Gods; prior to their conquest by Andald and subsequent conversion to the Faith of the Seven the Sistermen worshiped the Lady of the Waves and the Lord of the Skies. The old faith of the Sistermen combined with Ironborn religion and the myth of the founding of Storm's End also leaves me with the conclusion that the Ironborn faith is simply a descendant of the pre-Pact First Men's faith.

[Damon_Tor]

The first ruling Dynasty of Yi Ti was the Har dynasty, also called the "Grey Emperors". The first Grey Emperor (Har Loi) was described in WoIaF as having a "saddle for his throne".

For much of Ironborn history their ruling family was house Hoare, and the Ironborn claim to be descended from the "Grey King" who arrived by sea from the West. One Hoare King, Harwyn Hoare, is also described in WoIaF as having a "saddle for his throne".

This isn't rocket science guys.

That said, the BULK of the Ironborn are Firstmen, who predate the arrival of the Grey King (this would have happened soon after the Long Night, and the Firstmen should already be there by that point). Interestingly, the story of the Grey King killing Ygg the Demon Tree implies that it was him that stopped the CotF from taking over the minds of the men of the Iron Islands. More specifically, I suspect that it was his genes which make the ruling families of the Ironborn resistant to their telepathic influence.

[chrisdaw]

Their origins will be their own race independent of the First Men and Andals.

[Sensenmenn]

1 hour ago, Valens said:

In The World of Ice and Fire, it is said the Seastone Chair was inherited, or found by Ironborn when they came there. It is indeed a mystery how it was created and by who. Children of the Forest didn't go to the Islands because there was no forest there, simply. So...it is either a natural formation or maybe the Drowned God really exists.

The deep ones.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The part of the original First Men not influenced by the CotF (and some Andals later). Never converted to the Old Gods in the first place. They worship basically the same pantheon as the Sistermen did pre-Andal Invasion and as appears in the legends about Storms End.

[YOVMO]

3 hours ago, Valens said:

In The World of Ice and Fire, it is said the Seastone Chair was inherited, or found by Ironborn when they came there. It is indeed a mystery how it was created and by who. Children of the Forest didn't go to the Islands because there was no forest there, simply. So...it is either a natural formation or maybe the Drowned God really exists.

I am aware about the sealstone chair. I read somewhere that it could be fossilized bones of a dragon (stone dragon) but I don't remember if the argument was compelling. 

As for the Drowned God really existing, with ice zombies, dragons, red priests bringing people back from the dead and Tormund's enormous member I am ready to believe in things.

[Winter's Breath]

It is said the Grey king lived to be 1000, and is super human, which is similar to the other dawn characters but even so is quite fantastical. Thus, I think the Iron Born are separate, and the drowned god exists. However, they might tie into the other religions, just on the opposite side. 

The drowned god is constantly fighting against the storm god, just as the lord of light is constantly fighting agains the great other. However, what if the drowned god is some version of the great other? The iron born drown people and bring them back to life, a parallel to the Others, who reanimate dead cold zombies. Patch face drowned and came back with gifts for prophecy, so there has to be some power in the sea. There are also theories, strengthened by the chapter GREMM read at Balticon, suggesting that Euron Crow's Eye is currently an agent of the great other, based on how terrible he is as a person, his eye patch, and his newfound knowledge he brought back from his voyages across the sea. If this is true, it may not even be the first time the Iron Born worked for the force of death, and that their race might have been created for that purpose. 

[LordImp]

I'm leaning towards the Ironborn being first men who came into contact with the deep ones and then founded the drowned god . 

[Maester of Valyria]

On 22/06/2016 at 3:16 PM, YOVMO said:

The seastone chair and bones of naga are two of the biggest mysteries. There is something there and I can't pin it down. Rather, it is pinned down to so many things that it just doesn't make sense. More data needed.

I think the bones of Nagga are likely petrified weirwood trees, although I think that  the Seastone Chair remains more of a mystery.

19 hours ago, Valens said:

In The World of Ice and Fire, it is said the Seastone Chair was inherited, or found by Ironborn when they came there. It is indeed a mystery how it was created and by who. Children of the Forest didn't go to the Islands because there was no forest there, simply. So...it is either a natural formation or maybe the Drowned God really exists.

Actually the Iron Islands were deeply forested before the arrival of humans:

Archmaester Haereg has argued that it was a need for wood that first set the ironborn on this bloody path. In the dawn of days, there were extensive forests on Great Wyk, Harlaw, and Orkmont, but the shipwrights of the isles had such a voracious need for timber that one by one the woods vanished. So the ironborn had no choice but to turn to the vast forests of the green lands, the mainland of Westeros.

 

19 hours ago, TheSovereignGrave said:

They're simply First Men with Andal (and presumably a good number of other peoples from their reaving) admixture. They wouldn't even be the only First Men who didn't worship the Old Gods; prior to their conquest by Andald and subsequent conversion to the Faith of the Seven the Sistermen worshiped the Lady of the Waves and the Lord of the Skies. The old faith of the Sistermen combined with Ironborn religion and the myth of the founding of Storm's End also leaves me with the conclusion that the Ironborn faith is simply a descendant of the pre-Pact First Men's faith.

I agree with this hypothesis: the isolation from the mainland that would have occured after the islands were cut off from the Westerlands would have been very conducive towards the development of a unique culture: the Three Sisters are an example of this. And I like your idea on the Ironborn religion!

 

19 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

The first ruling Dynasty of Yi Ti was the Har dynasty, also called the "Grey Emperors". The first Grey Emperor (Har Loi) was described in WoIaF as having a "saddle for his throne".

For much of Ironborn history their ruling family was house Hoare, and the Ironborn claim to be descended from the "Grey King" who   arrived by sea from the West. One Hoare King, Harwyn Hoare, is also described in WoIaF as having a "saddle for his throne".

This isn't rocket science guys.

That said, the BULK of the Ironborn are Firstmen, who predate the arrival of the Grey King (this would have happened soon after the Long Night, and the Firstmen should already be there by that point). Interestingly, the story of the Grey King killing Ygg the Demon Tree implies that it was him that stopped the CotF from taking over the minds of the men of the Iron Islands. More specifically, I suspect that it was his genes which make the ruling families of the Ironborn resistant to their telepathic influence.

I may be forgetting something here, but are we ever actually told that the Grey King arrived from the west? I also find it hard to believe that a voyage around a Pacific-sized ocean (one common estimate that I've seen) would be possible for any civilisation that we've heard of, not to mention the possibility of intervening landmasses.

[YOVMO]

16 minutes ago, Maester of Valyria said:

I think the bones of Nagga are likely petrified weirwood trees, although I think that  the Seastone Chair remains more of a mystery.

I can buy this.