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NBA Offseason: The Draft, Free Agency and Trade Rumors Oh My!


Mr. Chatywin et al.

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20 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I can't post another time in that thread with such a blasphemous title, and we're well past 20 pages and the season is over.

Continue...

I think I've suffered enough at this point. NO RAGRETS!

http://www.clublexus.com/forums/attachments/rc-1st-gen-2015-present/358136d1427240531-any-regrets-image.png

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LOL!

So now that the Cavs are the champs, it casts the Wiggins-Love trade in a new light. I still think it was a bad trade overall for the Cavs, and that Wiggins probably could have had a bigger impact on this year's finals than Love, but any notion that it's one of the worst trades ever has to go out the window. The goal was to win now, and that's what they got. So even if Wiggins goes on to win multiple MVPs/championships and/or the Cavs end of shipping Love off for pennies on the dollar, the trade achieved it's ultimate goal. 

Also, do we still get to refer to the Browns as the Factory of Sadness? 

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9 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

LOL!

So now that the Cavs are the champs, it casts the Wiggins-Love trade in a new light. I still think it was a bad trade overall for the Cavs, and that Wiggins probably could have had a bigger impact on this year's finals than Love, but any notion that it's one of the worst trades ever has to go out the window. The goal was to win now, and that's what they got. So even if Wiggins goes on to win multiple MVPs/championships and/or the Cavs end of shipping Love off for pennies on the dollar, the trade achieved it's ultimate goal. 

Also, do we still get to refer to the Browns as the Factory of Sadness? 

I'll admit that it definitely goes into the pro-Wiggins for Love camp.  However, I still feel I must point out that Love didn't actually contribute much to the team in this series.  I would consider him AT BEST the fifth most important Cavalier in this series after Lebron, Irving, Thompson and JR.  Even that is probably selling Richard Jefferson short.  It seems pretty easy to say that the Cavs would have still won the series with Wiggins + some role player (remember they would have had more cash without Love's contract), but that is kind of a sour grapes argument. 

In the end, it is results that matter.  Even if Love had very little to do with it, there is a 100% chance that Cleveland won a championship with him, and a less than 100% chance that they would have won without making the trade.  I still think it's a bad trade, but it can no longer be called catastrophically bad because championship.

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20 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

dI'll admit that it definitely goes into the pro-Wiggins for Love camp.  However, I still feel I must point out that Love didn't actually contribute much to the team in this series.  I would consider him AT BEST the fifth most important Cavalier in this series after Lebron, Irving, Thompson and JR.  Even that is probably selling Richard Jefferson short.  It seems pretty easy to say that the Cavs would have still won the series with Wiggins + some role player (remember they would have had more cash without Love's contract), but that is kind of a sour grapes argument. 

In the end, it is results that matter.  Even if Love had very little to do with it, there is a 100% chance that Cleveland won a championship with him, and a less than 100% chance that they would have won without making the trade.  I still think it's a bad trade, but it can no longer be called catastrophically bad because championship.

 

13 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Seconded. It's hard to be too hard on it, given that both teams benefited.  

I still think it was bad and short sighted.  The goal was to win "now."  The Cavs did, and you won't be able to reasonably convince me that any post season series in the last two years would have gone any differently with Wiggins instead of Love.  I see your arguments that it softens the blow, but as I say I don't think you would have had any difference without the trade. 

Where the trade gets bad is in the next two years.  Will Love be a Cavalier past 2017?  I don't think so.  The other bad part was the desperation to get him before the season.  The Cavs could have absolutely picked him up before the trade deadline and likely wouldn't have had to get rid of Wiggins.  Then they could have had Wiggins and Love.  That's what makes the trade so bad in my eyes.  Not so much that they did it, but more that they could have done it for less.

Minnesota absolutely wound up better in the deal.  They have Wiggins, KAT, Rubio et al to add to whoever they take tonight.  That is a very solid core to build around.  If they were in the East, I'd call them a playoff team next year.  In the West, it may take a bit.

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11 minutes ago, Rhom said:

I still think it was bad and short sighted.  The goal was to win "now."  The Cavs did, and you won't be able to reasonably convince me that any post season series in the last two years would have gone any differently with Wiggins instead of Love.  I see your arguments that it softens the blow, but as I say I don't think you would have had any difference without the trade. 

Where the trade gets bad is in the next two years.  Will Love be a Cavalier past 2017?  I don't think so.  The other bad part was the desperation to get him before the season.  The Cavs could have absolutely picked him up before the trade deadline and likely wouldn't have had to get rid of Wiggins.  Then they could have had Wiggins and Love.  That's what makes the trade so bad in my eyes.  Not so much that they did it, but more that they could have done it for less.

Minnesota absolutely wound up better in the deal.  They have Wiggins, KAT, Rubio et al to add to whoever they take tonight.  That is a very solid core to build around.  If they were in the East, I'd call them a playoff team next year.  In the West, it may take a bit.

 Yeah, I agree with all of that as well. I think it's very likely that Love is not on the Cavs past next season, and I think Wiggins is going to be a very nice piece for the T-Wolves for a long time. Short sighted trade for the Cavs for sure, but maybe not so bad in that they did achieve what they set out to do. The ring does take some of the stank off it, at any rate.

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Well said @Maithanet. The one thing I'll say for Love is that he did show up big time in game 7, but yes otherwise he was dead weight, and more importantly, LBJ is going to likely be playing the 4 more as his career advances, so it's hard to see how he fits with Love who can absolutely not play the 5. 

 

 

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37 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

I'll admit that it definitely goes into the pro-Wiggins for Love camp.  However, I still feel I must point out that Love didn't actually contribute much to the team in this series.  I would consider him AT BEST the fifth most important Cavalier in this series after Lebron, Irving, Thompson and JR.  Even that is probably selling Richard Jefferson short.  It seems pretty easy to say that the Cavs would have still won the series with Wiggins + some role player (remember they would have had more cash without Love's contract), but that is kind of a sour grapes argument. 

In the end, it is results that matter.  Even if Love had very little to do with it, there is a 100% chance that Cleveland won a championship with him, and a less than 100% chance that they would have won without making the trade.  I still think it's a bad trade, but it can no longer be called catastrophically bad because championship.

Love is a poor match for Golden State, but he was good in the previous three rounds.  He did exactly what he was expected to do.  He stretched the floor, grabbed rebounds, played decent man defense, and played the third role on offense.  He definitely struggled in the Finals, but let's not forget that he missed a game with a concussion that may have had lingering effects on later games.

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13 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

Don't forget Zach Lavine

He deserves a by name mention when talking Twolves future hype.

But he doesn't deserve me caring if I spelled his name correctly

 

I'm just mad all the young talent is ending up in the West.

The Wiggins trade didn't help a bit

Exactly.  Which is why for the life of me, I don't understand any of the rumors surrounding big name free agents going anywhere in the Western Conference.  Why would I go to LA or Dallas to struggle to make the playoffs, when I could go to Washington or Boston and immediately be the second best team in the East.  :dunno: 

Speaking of trades... There's a guy locally who had a cup of coffee with the Denver Broncos this year and there was a story in the local paper back in January about how he would get a ring if they won the Super Bowl.

So does Varejao get a ring even though he was on the team that lost?

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37 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

LOL!

So now that the Cavs are the champs, it casts the Wiggins-Love trade in a new light. I still think it was a bad trade overall for the Cavs, and that Wiggins probably could have had a bigger impact on this year's finals than Love, but any notion that it's one of the worst trades ever has to go out the window. The goal was to win now, and that's what they got. So even if Wiggins goes on to win multiple MVPs/championships and/or the Cavs end of shipping Love off for pennies on the dollar, the trade achieved it's ultimate goal. 

Also, do we still get to refer to the Browns as the Factory of Sadness? 

The end result doesn't change the process. Love's positive difference making between the Cavs winning the title and coming up short again was a strong game 7 as a rebounder and one huge defensive stand. Still in the 3 wins to close the season,he went 4/17 shooting. And all series he was the one defensive weaklink the Warriors could exploit constantly. It's hard to argue he was a net positive in this critical series to winning the title. The turning moment in the series was the Cavs countering the Warriors small ball with heavy doses of Tristan Thompson aRichard Jefferson. The former was already on the roster and the latter was picked up in the dollar CD bin at Best Buy. 

Cavs won this series because Kyrie Irving played out of his mind and Lebron James arguably had the greatest finals ever. Playing at that level, they would've won with just about anyone filling the role Love did. I look at it like Peyton Manning in the playoffs last year. Yeah he won the title and yeah he made a couple plays but they won in spite of him, not because of him. 

Also, the Factory of Sadness will remain until the Browns win the title. The Cavs can't wash away that stink anymore than all the Celtics titles in the 80s could make the Red Sox less misery inducing. 

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5 minutes ago, Jaime L said:

The end result doesn't change the process. Love's positive difference making between the Cavs winning the title and coming up short again was a strong game 7 as a rebounder and one huge defensive stand. Still in the 3 wins to close the season,he went 4/17 shooting. And all series he was the one defensive weaklink the Warriors could exploit constantly. It's hard to argue he was a net positive in this critical series to winning the title. The turning moment in the series was the Cavs countering the Warriors small ball with heavy doses of Tristan Thompson aRichard Jefferson. The former was already on the roster and the latter was picked up in the dollar CD bin at Best Buy. 

Cavs won this series because Kyrie Irving played out of his mind and Lebron James arguably had the greatest finals ever. Playing at that level, they would've won with just about anyone filling the role Love did. I look at it like Peyton Manning in the playoffs last year. Yeah he won the title and yeah he made a couple plays but they won in spite of him, not because of him. 

I agree with practically everything you just said, but the one thing I'd interject is that the city of Cleveland would have ritually sacrificed Kevin Love after they traded Wiggins for him if that meant the title drought would end. 

5 minutes ago, Jaime L said:

Also, the Factory of Sadness will remain until the Browns win the title. The Cavs can't wash away that stink anymore than all the Celtics titles in the 80s could make the Red Sox less misery inducing. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

The Cavs players get to vote if he does or doesn't. The more important question is would you take it? 

So you mean LeBron gets to decide if he gets a ring.  :lol: 

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2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I agree with practically everything you just said, but the one thing I'd interject is that the city of Cleveland would have ritually sacrificed Kevin love after they traded Wiggins for him if that meant the title drought would end. 

 

No jury in Ohio would've convicted them. 

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1 minute ago, Rhom said:

So you mean LeBron gets to decide if he gets a ring.  :lol: 

From what I've read and heard, yup. But I'd like to believe that J.R. gets the deciding vote, assuming he still hasn't bothered to put a shirt on yet. 

2 minutes ago, Jaime L said:

No jury in Ohio would've convicted them. 

Shades of the U.S. Senate trial of the Cruz murderer. 

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I'm seeing multiple rumors of Nerlens Noel to the Celtics for the number three pick with the Sixers being highly interested in Jamal Murray.

This comes after the C's tried to shop the pick to get an experienced veteran and didn't get much interest.  (The Cavs should ship them Love for the number 3... If they did that, I'd be willing to begin considering the Wiggins trade as less terrible.)

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4 minutes ago, Rhom said:

I'm seeing multiple rumors of Nerlens Noel to the Celtics for the number three pick with the Sixers being highly interested in Jamal Murray.

No way they trade the 3 for Noel straight up. And the Sixers really only have two guys they can trade and neither seems worth it alone and I doubt they'd send them both for just the 3rd. 

I've also been hearing that if they can pull it off they'd go for Dunn.

6 minutes ago, Rhom said:

This comes after the C's tried to shop the pick to get an experienced veteran and didn't get much interest.  (The Cavs should ship them Love for the number 3... If they did that, I'd be willing to begin considering the Wiggins trade as less terrible.)

If they trade Love to the Celtics it would be for a couple role players rather than the pick. Funnily enough the Celtics strike me as the one team that could really use Love. They can hide his defensive deficiencies and they really need someone who can score. 

 

Rhom, do you watch a lot of college ball in general or mainly just Kentucky? I want to know more about Marquese Chriss, who many scouts are saying has the highest ceiling of any player in the draft, but could also be a complete bust. 

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1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

No way they trade the 3 for Noel straight up. And the Sixers really only have two guys they can trade and neither seems worth it alone and I doubt they'd send them both for just the 3rd. 

I've also been hearing that if they can pull it off they'd go for Dunn.

If they trade Love to the Celtics it would be for a couple role players rather than the pick. Funnily enough the Celtics strike me as the one team that could really use Love. They can hide his defensive deficiencies and they really need someone who can score. 

 

Rhom, do you watch a lot of college ball in general or mainly just Kentucky? I want to know more about Marquese Chriss, who many scouts are saying has the highest ceiling of any player in the draft, but could also be a complete bust. 

I watch more college basketball in general than the average American... but the Pac 12 games come on entirely too late for me to watch them with any regularity.  I really only know about as much about Chriss as the next guy.  I agree that he does seem to have a higher bust potential, than some.  :dunno: 

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