Infidelity

[Callan S.]

I think it'd be worth ceasing to attribute drinking to him as if it's some act of free will (that he just keeps doing). Booze is a drug (and a toxin) and it screws up the brain - on harder drugs, people steal from their own family. Booze over the long term has debilitating effect - trying to blame him as if it's as simple as 'a choice' just leads to a spiral of shame since he keeps blaming himself for something which is like someone missing an arm blaming themselves for being unable to pick something up.

In regards to the stripper, it shouldn't just be 'how do I feel about that'. If you're in a relationship, if you were traveling in the same direction, what happened to make one start to turn away? If it's come down to considering only your own hurt, then the relationship has decayed well before the stripper entered the scene. Best have relationships with gods if you expect utterly perfect behavior. Only gods are perfect and never fail.

[Elder Sister]

8 hours ago, Callan S. said:

 

In regards to the stripper, it shouldn't just be 'how do I feel about that'. If you're in a relationship, if you were traveling in the same direction, what happened to make one start to turn away? If it's come down to considering only your own hurt, then the relationship has decayed well before the stripper entered the scene. Best have relationships with gods if you expect utterly perfect behavior. Only gods are perfect and never fail.

This is like blaming the bartender for thoughtlessly over-serving me.  

I'm a grownup.  No one forces me to do anything.  If I'm unhappy in a relationship, I need to speak up.  That's my responsibility.

 

[Mlle. Zabzie]

5 hours ago, Elder Sister said:

This is like blaming the bartender for thoughtlessly over-serving me.  

I'm a grownup.  No one forces me to do anything.  If I'm unhappy in a relationship, I need to speak up.  That's my responsibility.

 

Thank you.  Exactly this.  I don't expect my partner to be perfect or myself to be perfect.  That said, when the unhappy times come (and they do come) you have to communicate.  We HAD talked about where we were this winter.  I had asked for counselling.  He said that he didn't think it would help.  His "solutions" weren't helpful.  I cop to not being brutally honest with him about the drinking at that time, but that doesn't change that he behaved like a spoiled, drunken child.  Relationships are complicated.

[IamMe90]

15 hours ago, Callan S. said:

In regards to the stripper, it shouldn't just be 'how do I feel about that'. If you're in a relationship, if you were traveling in the same direction, what happened to make one start to turn away? If it's come down to considering only your own hurt, then the relationship has decayed well before the stripper entered the scene. Best have relationships with gods if you expect utterly perfect behavior. Only gods are perfect and never fail.

It's laughably ridiculous to equivocate not having an affair with a stripper with "utterly perfect behavior." This post is so gross. 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

12 minutes ago, IamMe90 said:

It's laughably ridiculous to equivocate not having an affair with a stripper with "utterly perfect behavior." This post is so gross. 

Agreed. Staying faithful in a marriage (or any long term monogamous relationship) is pretty much a bare minimum requirement. Not sure how perfection enters into it.

[Mlle. Zabzie]

On 7/1/2016 at 5:17 PM, IamMe90 said:

It's laughably ridiculous to equivocate not having an affair with a stripper with "utterly perfect behavior." This post is so gross. 

 

On 7/1/2016 at 5:32 PM, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Agreed. Staying faithful in a marriage (or any long term monogamous relationship) is pretty much a bare minimum requirement. Not sure how perfection enters into it.

Thanks.  Totally agreed with this.  No marriage is perfect.  Facebook lies about that.  However, the way I view it is that we made certain promises to each other.  One of those promises was fidelity.  And I, personally, respect my promises, particularly if made to someone I respect.  His behavior to me suggests on some level that he didn't respect me enough to be faithful to his promises, which makes me wonder whether he'd be faithful to the other ones (e.g., what if I got sick?  how would that go?).  Yeah, we have other issues.  Lots of them.  His friends Al and Cohol are a bit part of it.  And maybe there is still enough there to build something on.  But you have choices when you are having problems in a relationship.  You can talk about them (with a professional if need be!) or you can ignore them and run away.  I wanted to talk about them (and had suggested counselling numerous times in the past year).  He had an affair with a stripper.     

[The Anti-Targ]

Like I've said a couple of times, I think the affair is a symptom. If you look at your husband's situation as a whole like cancer, the affair isn't the cancer, the affair is a massive headache caused by the cancer pressing on some part of the brain. If dealing with the affair becomes a focus then it's not dealing with the cancer that is destroying the relationship. But it's hard to not focus on the headache, because that is the thing that is causing the most pain. You do need to deal with the headache, but not let it take focus away from the cancer.

 

[Mlle. Zabzie]

1 hour ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Like I've said a couple of times, I think the affair is a symptom. If you look at your husband's situation as a whole like cancer, the affair isn't the cancer, the affair is a massive headache caused by the cancer pressing on some part of the brain. If dealing with the affair becomes a focus then it's not dealing with the cancer that is destroying the relationship. But it's hard to not focus on the headache, because that is the thing that is causing the most pain. You do need to deal with the headache, but not let it take focus away from the cancer.

 

 

51 minutes ago, Mandy said:

I'm facepalming at Callan S.'s response above.

Sure, the affair is a symptom.  But I don't feel like some people enter into a monogamous marriage understanding that it takes work at times to make it work well.  That mostly means that both people need to take responsibility and work to keep it going.  Communication, being respectful and attentive... if it gets to the point that you're having an affair, I feel like those things have been completely blown out of the water.  That's not how you work at a relationship, that's how you disregard the other person and destroy it, possibly irrevocably.  So if we're going to start trying to lay blame I'd say the potential cheater's got plenty when they cheat instead of trying to communicate and fix things.

Thanks Mandy.  A-T, I'm not saying that our marriage wasn't crap, and hadn't been from some time.  It was.  Heck, because he wouldn't go to counselling with me, I had been seeing a counselor on my own to try to figure out whether I wanted to walk, and this was BEFORE I found out about the affair (which, you know, was an adult thing to do).  That doesn't excuse the affair.  And the affair isn't just a headache distracting from cancer.  It's more than that.  As Mandy says, at least to me, it means that the person having the affair has so little respect for both the relationship, in this case, himself, and the other party in the relationship, that they simply walk away from the relationship in its entirety.  So, you know, I have to figure out whether I want to stay with someone who thought so little of me, of our relationship, and of himself that he would rather have a relationship with a stripper that basically hit him up for money all the time and drink himself into oblivion every night.*

 

*The alcoholism is a separate thing, which actually has almost nothing to do with me, which I recognize.  I also recognize that the alcohol caused many, many, many of our root problems, because he was basically more interested in drinking than anything else for some substantial period of time.

[GilletteMace]

the only valid answer to your problem can always just be, you have to decide and listen to yourself.

i know neither you nor your husband, so honestly i cannot have an opinion in your special case. still i will be frank from what i have read about your relationship so far.

from my own experience, these kind of relationships are rather destructive. to me personally, trust is fundamentally important, i have been betrayed before and even if this happened at younger age in a long term relationship (i did forgive it) i now wouldnt. i never betrayed my girlfriends and i do expect the same from them. especially if i were married this would be important to me. people who betray once, do it over and over again. it is some sort of selfishness or lack of respect. i may understand why they do it, still i am hard on these cases when it comes to me. this is how i see it.

a lying drug addict is highly problematic and will cost you a lot of energy. its an emotional investment of the risky type and if you decide to go this path always be honest to yourself, be aware that you may waste your energy on a lost case. if you are at least aware of it, you wont be hurt as much when the time comes. be clear to yourself and do expect to be disappointed again. if that is ok to you, than go for it. i wouldnt.

this is what i would tell a friend, aware of 3 children and a marriage with family implications. it could be too harsh but i am just honest about how i would possibly feel here.

my only true advice can only be, be honest. to him, your children and mostly yourself.

[Xray the Enforcer]

Whatever you decide, Zabs, we'll be here to support you. Good luck, and PM me (here or on FB) if you need to vent.

[karaddin]

There can be situations where cheating happens because one partner is struggling with things, and the other one is completely non responsive to their needs/the problem and eventually that happens. That isn't the case here, Zabz had noticed the problem, tried to discuss it and tried to get him to go to counseling with her - he wasn't shut out, he chose to do this.

Cheating can also be the way someone tries to end a relationship when they either don't feel safe breaking up, or can't admit to themselves/their partner that they want out. The latter at least is a possibility, so it's worth keeping that in mind if you were already asking yourself that question.

[The Anti-Targ]

Y'see, the way I see it the title of this thread has people looking in the wrong direction. This thread, should have been titled my alcoholic husband, and what do do about him. I can completely understand why this thread is titled the way it is, and talking about whether infidelity is always a fatal blow to a monogamous relationship is a subject worth exploring. But mostly I'm not interested in doing that here. The only reason I want to participate in this thread is to support you and, if I can, help you in some small way.

My cancer analogy was perhaps not clear, or was not good at explaining some of the things I think might be important for you to get through this difficult and traumatic period of your life. 

I'm worried that you see the alcoholism as a separate thing, because I strongly suspect that the affair and the alcoholism are intricately linked. Your husband had an affair with a stripper, but alcohol is his mistress and dominatrix, and always will be. The question is whether he gives it any attention and gives in to its insidious seductions.

[Kelli Fury]

Look, they ARE separate issues. Alcohol may bring out qualities you already have, but it doesn't make you do anything. There are plenty of raging alocholics who are faithful. There are plenty of serial cheaters who are not alcoholics. They may have a similar other root cause as both being ways he is dealing with some kind of inner struggle but cheating can't be brushed aside and lumped in. Even if it was part of it- he is still just as responsible for his actions while drinking as while sober. Letting them be lumped together allows him to dodge full accountability for his choices. And don't tell Zabz what to name her thread and what to be upset about. This is her life, who cares what you are interested in exploring here?

[karaddin]

There also is not universal agreement with the 'addiction as a lifelong state of being' point of view, at least not in all (or even necessarily most) cases. But that's not the point of the thread, and it's not what Zabzie is looking for so I'm biting my tongue on that front and trying to stick to what she is - advice on trust in relationships following a dramatic beach of said trust, and related to that is maintaining perspective on what you want in/from a relationship.

It's a very sensitive issue with strong opinions on all sides.

[mormont]

Anti-Targ: let's assume for a moment you are correct that the affair is a symptom of the alcoholism. I don't agree, but I'll assume it for a second.

All that means is that Mr Zabz - who is well aware he has a problem and has a wife who is trying to get him to recognise and deal with that problem - has created the situation in which the infidelity occurs, by not taking responsible steps to deal with his alcoholism. If an affair then happens because he hasn't acknowledged and dealt with his problems, then yeah, it's still ultimately his fault.

[Mlle. Zabzie]

Thanks Kay, Kara, Mormont.  That's exactly right.  "I did it because I was drunk" doesn't cut it.  It doesn't cut it in a DUI and it doesn't cut it here.  The alcoholism is a separate thing, that he seems to be addressing now, which is great!  I really like him when he is sober!  And yes, we have issues that are caused by his alcoholism.  Those are real, and we need to address those (whether we stay together or not).  And we had to address those whether he cheated or not.  The cheating though is a separate issue.  And I am curious, truly curious, about how people respond.  It's been eye opening actually because the responses haven't been nearly as black and white as I had thought they would be (I tend to live my own life by moral absolutes, so perspective is good).

[Guy Kilmore]

I have been hesitant in weighing in on this conversation, because of my own experience working in the mental health field and with those who have struggled with addiction and I do not know the principal people in this discussion well.  (Basically, I don't want to be arm chairing, but with all that said, well, I guess I'm going to get into the arm chair.)  I can see what AT is saying as I somewhat agree.  If Mr. Zabzie is suffering from addiction issues his behavior will be suspect if he is not committed to some kind of plan for sobriety.  (I could go with a Harm Reduction type model as well, but, I would be very curious).  Him abusing alcohol doesn't excuse his actions, but his actions are tied with the biological/cognitive triggers which could be driving his behavior for abuse.  

That was a long way of saying that part of him addressing the relationship and him redeveloping trust, he should be having some kind of plan for dealing with the abuse.  How does this tie into the cheating?  Well, if you are working towards redeveloping that trust, one massive red flag is if he stop following through on his plan for sobriety.  That means he is back in that mindset with all of those biological/cognitive triggers which means he is more likely to abuse the trust and respect you have.  That is why I have a very hard time seeing them as a different issues as the disease of addiction is probably one of those things that contributed to the behavior in the first place.

This does not mitigate your own feelings towards being cheated on and the actions of your husband.  I work with a family who have separated because of similar issues.  The ex-wife is very supportive of her husband's sobriety, but his actions damaged the relationship to the point that she could not longer be emotionally invested in it.  They are very good co-parents and are probably the most amicable couple who have separated that I have ever worked with.

Now, to the thrust of the thread regarding cheating in of itself.  I do not know how I would respond if I cheated on my wife.  I couldn't do it to my wife because the level of hurt that I imagine it would cause just makes me clench all up.  I think I would have a difficult time moving forward.  As an outside observer though, I have grown to realize that it isn't always that simple.  A close friend was basically "emotionally" cheated on by his wife.  She was, in essence sexting and flirting with another man, and once he found out; she decided she was done.  (Which was a gut punch for him, because he worked two jobs to support her through school and when it was her turn, this is the direction it went.)  I then looked towards my sister-in-law who cheated on her now ex-husband.  Towards the end of the relationship, he lost all ambition; was depending on her for support while he pursued worked on his doctoral thesis (that he has been working on for 4 or 5 years) with no real resolution in sight.  He became emotionally neglectful and borderline abusive.  (He would refuse to go places and when they were obligated too, he would say mean and hurtful things to her.)  She wanted to go into couples counseling and was seeing her own therapist.  He would refuse.  He spent most of his time playing video games.  Eventually things got so bad they started couples counseling.  Then one night she slept with a male acquaintance, told him and now they are separated.  She felt awful about it.  One evening she, my wife and I were talking about it.  It really became apparent at how deprived of certain needs she felt, how much she missed the physical and emotional intimacy that she had.  I could really understand why she did what she did and I can't fault it as some horrendous crime.  There was something intrinsic that was missing in her relationship and her partner refused to address the issue.  There were probably better ways to go about it, but, well, like I said, it doesn't seem like some great evil that it once did.

Anyways, I apologize for the word salad.

[Mlle. Zabzie]

Thanks, Guy.  I understand what you are saying, and I firmly believe that we had issues prior to this (because of his drinking, primarily).  I also firmly believe and agree that he cheated for many of the same reasons that he drinks.  That means, to me, that fixing the drinking will help, but doesn't fix the cheating issue.  Make sense?

And his sobriety is new.  Right now he is doing and saying all the right things (including trying to develop an effective sobriety plan), but he hasn't really been tested yet.  And I don't know how that will go.  

[Guy Kilmore]

Yes, the cheating in of itself, also needs to be addressed because of your feelings involved in that action along with his own motivations and his feelings.  Trying to be sober can also be a challenging path, I would just wave the caution flag that if he strays from it; anything else you are doing is probably going to end up going out the window.  (Relapses happen and a good sobriety plan will address those instances).

In with my evolved understanding with cheating, people go outside of the relationship to seek things that they feel they cannot have in the relationship.  I thought about it over lunch a bit, and I think that if my wife cheated on me, I would really want to know why.  I would also want to know what was missing from our relationship.

[Mlle. Zabzie]

18 minutes ago, Guy Kilmore said:

Yes, the cheating in of itself, also needs to be addressed because of your feelings involved in that action along with his own motivations and his feelings.  Trying to be sober can also be a challenging path, I would just wave the caution flag that if he strays from it; anything else you are doing is probably going to end up going out the window.  (Relapses happen and a good sobriety plan will address those instances).

In with my evolved understanding with cheating, people go outside of the relationship to seek things that they feel they cannot have in the relationship.  I thought about it over lunch a bit, and I think that if my wife cheated on me, I would really want to know why.  I would also want to know what was missing from our relationship.

Thanks.  This is helpful.  I'm trying to figure out how I would handle the (probably inevitable) relapse.  I think he is "scared straight" enough for now that I think he will be good for a few months, but then, the holidays, and then, the dark days of winter, and then, whatever other triggers come up.  (Though, last night at an event, he confessed he had some rum cake - not sure if it was soaked in rum or just rum was used in the baking, but definitely made me clench up).  I personally need to spend a fair bit of time with my own therapist and in Al Anon figuring some of this stuff out.  I agree that if his commitment to sobriety (whether there is a relapse or not) fails, then we are done.

On the cheating, I think I understand some of what was going on.  I definitely had emotionally (and physically) withdrawn because of the drinking.  I was doing all the adulting for both of us.  He was way more interested in alcohol than me (I now realize) so he had withdrawn, so my own withdrawal was part armor against being hurt by that and also because I was finding him increasingly distasteful when drunk.  He's not the kindest person when not sober.  I think he was feeling like I wasn't paying enough attention to him, and in particular wasn't relying on him (that part is true - I felt I couldn't - he was utterly unreliable).  The fact that my job is so demanding he claims to equally admire, like and find attractive, while at the same time resenting (even saw it this weekend - had an unexpected call come up and he totally did not deal well - he owned it though for a change).  He was enjoying (1) the rush of the illicit, (2) the attention of another attractive (much younger) woman who wasn't actually or constructively reminding him that he was a fat, drunken 40 something year old.  The fact that he could "white knight" as well (meaning "help" her with her money problems) was just a bonus.  And I think he liked being the "competent" person for a bit (and apparently she had also mentioned/noticed that he was "nicer" to her when drunk, which you know, he liked, because I was so the opposite and it gave him permission to drink).  So, I get it, at least in part.  Doesn't mean the relationship is salvageable.  I will NEVER be a damsel in distress.  I'm more of the Paper Bag Princess type.  I'm going to disagree with him sometimes.  I'm going to keep doing my job at a high level.  And, I am emotionally guarded around him - not sure I can fix that after everything.