Samantha Stark Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 I've noticed Ser Barristan the Bold has alot of fans all over the internet and I guess I can 'get' his allure. Even in his older years he is still one of the best swordsman Westeros has ever seen and he served on perhaps the best Kingsguard of all time with other living legends like Ser Arthur Dayne and the white bull, and of course, Jaime. But personally I find him rather insufferable. He seems to always play the holier-than-thou moral highground card, his constant bitching about Jaime being the main example. Selmy took the same oaths as a knight Jaime did (You know, protect the weak, defend the innocent) yet seemed willing to regard those as inferior to his oath to the King. I will say that alot of the situations he was present for were probably morally ambiguous for him given the time and nature of his vows (The defiance of Duskendale, Brandon Stark being an idiot) but there were others where his King was just being a malicious prick and he looked the other way (Denying trial by combat to Rickard Stark, raping his wife) Essentially I think Barristan Selmy is like the Joachim Peiper of Westeros. A talented warrior who probably always conducted his own affairs honourably but seemed perfectly willing to look the other way when his superiors did not do so, and served a monster at the end of the day. I suppose all that can be forgiven if he didn't try and play the afore mentioned high ground card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 Here. Ser Barristan is a glory hound, no more. He doesn't care one whiff about hs oaths or honor or whatever, only about his public reputation. He's got to be perceived as the White Knight of the Kingsguard TM, and if he has to accept injustice, rape and treason for it (out of the public eye), too bad for the victims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ned Stark Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 I agree with you both. I think he is somewhat of a hidden cautionary tale, and I don't think he is very bright. A glorified bodyguard. It's telling, to me, that in his own recollections that he was not (trusted) in Rhaegar's inner circle. He is a better knight and kingsguard than Jaime, but not the true steel. He should've died fighting during the rebellion, or else taken the black. He swore to guard Robert as king, but thinks he would've killed Robert had he smiled over the dead Targaryen babies. Yet, and I presume, when Robert said "I see no babies, only dragonspawn" he did nothing. Only Ned called foul on Tywin for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samantha Stark Posted June 24, 2016 Author Share Posted June 24, 2016 I'm going to call foul on him being a better knight than Jaime. A better Kingsguard? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manderly's Rat Cook Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 I think the nice thing about these books, is that every character is a mixture of good and bad decisions. The only POVs, whose intentions, and actions seem to be consistently positive in nature at this time imo, are Brenne and Sam, although Jon and Ned have been trying to do the right thing as well. What I like in both Barristan's and Jaime's chapters, is that they clearly show how confusing all the demands on a (kingsguard) knight are. They're torn between honour, their duties as a kingsguard, their oaths as a knight, protecting the weak, and obeying their king. Barristan is clearly not bright enough to make his own choices in what is right, and wrong, although he might be learning now in Mereen. Like many of the characters, he's basically a grown up child, who's not (yet) capable of taking his own responsibility. Ned had the same problem. Jaime on the other hand, seems to be quite aware of right and wrong, but he doesn't always choose to do the right thing (like pushing Bran from a tower). This seems stem from a mixture of, putting his own wellbeing over that of others, and bitterness (over being called the Kingsgate, for doing the right thing amongst other things). Even his choice now to try and do the right things, seems to (partially) stem from his disappointment in Cersei, and bitterness, and cynicism about losing his hand. Anyway, Barristan is not my favourite character, but I find him interesting enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samantha Stark Posted June 24, 2016 Author Share Posted June 24, 2016 6 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said: Jaime on the other hand, seems to be quite aware of right and wrong, but he doesn't always choose to do the right thing (like pushing Bran from a tower). But even that isn't the mustache twirling villainous act it is often portrayed as. To Jaime in that moment, it is the life of the woman he loves and their children vs a single life. It was monstrous to us certainly but it isn't like he put his finger up to his lip after it happened Dr. Evil style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manderly's Rat Cook Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 15 minutes ago, Samantha Stark said: But even that isn't the mustache twirling villainous act it is often portrayed as. To Jaime in that moment, it is the life of the woman he loves and their children vs a single life. It was monstrous to us certainly but it isn't like he put his finger up to his lip after it happened Dr. Evil style. I agree, I still think he sometimes knowingly chooses to do the wrong things though, but he's not evil. He's one of the more realistic, and human characters imo. Like Sansa, who's the only Stark kid who thinks and behaves like a normal teenager. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Vance II Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 So the only real thing against him is that he goes "holier than thou" on people? He's a genuinely good man in a world run by the most vile, I'd argue he does have the moral high ground more often than not. And who wouldn't bitch about the guy they fired you for? I just see him as an old soldier trying one last time to do what he feels is his life's calling. He serves kings, and when his king cast him off he went to another (not that he doesn't genuinely serve Dany). He's capable and doing an admirable job, but he is overmatched by the situation in Mereen. He's seen how a kingdom is run, but hasn't actually had to do it. He's in his element training his squires, but he can't run things on such a large scale. To me, if anything he is wrong for his devotion to Dany. I get that he's trying to make up for abandoning her father, and he has told cautionary tales of her father, but I think she's reaching a tipping point of malevolence. 4 hours ago, Bright Blue Eyes said: Ser Barristan is a glory hound, no more What knight isn't? It's ingrained into them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfish Tully Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 4 hours ago, Samantha Stark said: Essentially I think Barristan Selmy is like the Joachim Peiper of Westeros. A talented warrior who probably always conducted his own affairs honourably but seemed perfectly willing to look the other way when his superiors did not do so, and served a monster at the end of the day. I suppose all that can be forgiven if he didn't try and play the afore mentioned high ground card. I have a hard time understanding this whole "high ground card" , Barristan had POV chapters in ADWD and we were able to get into his head and we see that this is a guy who anything but arrogant about his past actions . Even arguably his greatest feat , the storming of Duskendale, is something he now regrets. He's a guy who has always tried to do the right thing and just got screwed over by having crappy kings . He swore by the Seven Gods to serve and obey until his death and it's not his fault that the kings he had to serve and obey were monsters , blame the institution of the Kingsguard not Barristan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfish Tully Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 3 hours ago, Samantha Stark said: I'm going to call foul on him being a better knight than Jaime. A better Kingsguard? Yes. Considering the fact that Jaimie spent his time as a Kingsguard committing treason by repeatedly banging the Queen , it's not hard to be a better Kingsguard then him. and considering the fact that Jaimie threw a 8 year old boy out a tower window to what he hoped would be his death , recalled that he would have killed Arya for Cersei if he found her first after she attacked Joffrey and lied to his own brother and told him his wife was a whore , when she wasn't, and allowed her to be gang raped by his father's men frankly it's not harder to be a better Knight then Jaimie either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOVMO Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 5 hours ago, Samantha Stark said: Essentially I think Barristan Selmy is like the Joachim Peiper of Westeros. A talented warrior who probably always conducted his own affairs honourably but seemed perfectly willing to look the other way when his superiors did not do so, and served a monster at the end of the day. I suppose all that can be forgiven if he didn't try and play the afore mentioned high ground card. This has always been an inchoate thought in my head that I have never really put into words, but as you say it I have to admit I totally agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Storm Reborn Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 4 hours ago, King Ned Stark said: He swore to guard Robert as king, but thinks he would've killed Robert had he smiled over the dead Targaryen babies. Yet, and I presume, when Robert said "I see no babies, only dragonspawn" he did nothing. Only Ned called foul on Tywin for that. To be fair Robert didn´t smile he just lashed out anger words, Selmy could very well not interfere and still keep his word... That being said, if he tried he would die unless it was a surprise attack... Both at their primes Selmy only has sword skill over Robert who has a better weapon, better genetics, and h2h would break Selmy´s neck in half... let alone at the Sack when Bob had 20 years less on his back, saying stuff and managing to do it are too differnt things, and being THE BOLD would cost his life pronto About the topic, Selmy was the westerosi Solid Snake, a kingsguard like no other not just great in battle and duels but an amazing solo operations commando, the guy would be my first choice EVER as LC of the KG, Prime Bob or Dayne are the kind of guys you launch in a battle as cheat-codes to obliterate anyone, Selmy (while not below any as a sword) is the guard and soldier you want at your side to deal with every defense-counter scenario His fault, in my opinion, is that he is ill equiped to deal with moral issues (much like Bob, unlike Robert he tries but it´s not his forte)... if he had a good king until he gets a chance to die he would be perfect, but life gave him two Targs (one mad), Robert (who pardoned him, but even selmy knew he would outlive a souless Bob), Joff, and now Dany... and we can see clearly the old man does not have the fresh brain to deal with so much confliction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfish Tully Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 16 minutes ago, Laughing Storm Reborn said: To be fair Robert didn´t smile he just lashed out anger words, Selmy could very well not interfere and still keep his word... also to be fair when Robert said "I see no babies, only dragonspawn" Barristan was laid up in the hospital after being severely wounded at the Trident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Storm Reborn Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 1 minute ago, Blackfish Tully said: also to be fair when Robert said "I see no babies, only dragonspawn" Barristan was laid up in the hospital after being severely wounded at the Trident. yep, Selmy actually says he wasn´t there in the same "smilling quote" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfish Tully Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 21 minutes ago, Laughing Storm Reborn said: That being said, if he tried he would die unless it was a surprise attack... Both at their primes Selmy only has sword skill over Robert who has a better weapon, better genetics, and h2h would break Selmy´s neck in half... let alone at the Sack when Bob had 20 years less on his back, saying stuff and managing to do it are too differnt things, and being THE BOLD would cost his life pronto That's questionable . Robert was a great fighter no doubt but Barristan and Arthur Dayne were two of the greatest fighters in Westeroes history. Robert killing Rhaegar was impressive but Barristan was on a whole different level and Robert would have his hands full without a doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Storm Reborn Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 13 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said: That's questionable . Robert was a great fighter no doubt but Barristan and Arthur Dayne were two of the greatest fighters in Westeroes history. Robert killing Rhaegar was impressive but Barristan was on a whole different level and Robert would have his hands full without a doubt. Robert fought Rhaegar on horseback, a fact hammered into the reader a ton of times (Rhaegar´s advantage as a great jouster)... he has per grrm legendary prowess with warhammer wich trumps or equals Dayne/Selmy's legendary prowess with sword, then it come to genetics and h2h wich he completely outclasses both... imo Robert was made to be a warrior/commander prototype who was crap at almost everything else... can Dayne or Selmy beat him in 1v1? sure, those 3 are in a class of 7/8 best ever... but favourites against prime bob? imho, NO... and in the scenario of the RK-lannister cloaks, even less so due to age Going to stop now before i go way off topic... Point being, Selmy is not perfect as a person but almost as a KG (just not lucky surviving so much kings) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Penry Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 Definitely not the True Knight he pretty much claims himself to be, not a personally evil person, but a major hypocrite and willing to let evil transpire before him (all that is necessary for the triumph of evil...). He's shades of grey like most POV characters. He really seems to go where it glitters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfish Tully Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 8 minutes ago, Lars Penry said: Definitely not the True Knight he pretty much claims himself to be, not a personally evil person, but a major hypocrite and willing to let evil transpire before him (all that is necessary for the triumph of evil...). He's shades of grey like most POV characters. He really seems to go where it glitters. Where does he claim himself to be a "True Knight" ? we actually have his POV and he is racked with self doubt and guilt and indecision. He's a simple man who tried to be a good knight in a pretty screwed up world. I have a hard time blaming him because every king he served turned out to be monsters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Penry Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 3 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said: Where does he claim himself to be a "True Knight" ? we actually have his POV and he is racked with self doubt and guilt and indecision. He's a simple man who tried to be a good knight in a pretty screwed up world. I have a hard time blaming him because every king he served turned out to be monsters. Barristan pretty much equates himself with a true knight here: Quote “And you without your sword? How did you get past them?” “A true knight is worth ten guardsmen." Just to be clear, Barristan's actually one of my favourite characters, and is a good man, but he has the ability to turn his head at cruelty on the basis of what he perceives to be his honour/duty. He'd be boring if he were utterly without fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfish Tully Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 25 minutes ago, Lars Penry said: Barristan pretty much equates himself with a true knight here: Just to be clear, Barristan's actually one of my favourite characters, and is a good man, but he has the ability to turn his head at cruelty on the basis of what he perceives to be his honour/duty. He'd be boring if he were utterly without fault. Who in Westeroes does not turn his head at cruelty on the basis of honor/duty? it's kind of the theme for most of the books but for some reason Barristan is held to a standard nobody else is . Jaimie throws kids out windows, sleeps with the Queen , has Ned's men murdered , lies to Tyrion about his wife and does not protect her from a gang rape and somehow he's perceived as a better knight then Barristan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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