Jump to content

Exercise: Lyanna miscarries, what of the Kingsguard?


Lord_Tyrell

Recommended Posts

Personally, I think if Jon was never born and the Kingsguard were no longer at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrives. I think Tywin's most pressing concern after the Sack of King's Landing was finding the remaining 3 members of Aerys Kingsguard. If Lyanna miscarried or Jon was born earlier as a stillborn, they would have headed south to Starfall, dropped Lyanna off there for Ned to pick up later, and then sailed to be with Viserys.

Once they're with Viserys, I really think Viserys would have taken back the throne. Gerold Hightower was the Commander of the forces in the War of the Ninepenny Kings, and along with the Sword of the Morning, he could have convinced multiple Free Cities and mercenary companies to join with him to put Viserys back on the Iron Throne. I think Tywin knew this to be the case, which makes it odd to me that he'd never consider Jon Snow to be Rhaegar's son and that Lyanna died in childbirth, especially considering that's what happened with his own wife.

Any other theories on what would have happened if Aerys remaining Kingsguard were to join with Viserys instead of Jon?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

This thread is taking a lot of liberties. We don't yet know if Jon is Lyanna's son or if she was pregnant in the first place.

Then why were they protecting her over Viserys? Reading that passage through, there is only one reasonable answer: the king was up those steps.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But why on earth would Tywin need to be suspicious of Jon being Lyanna and Rhaegar's? Tywin doesn't know the things we know from Ned's pov. Jon looks nothing like Rhaegar, in fact he has features a lot like Ned. And Ned claimed the kid as his. It's a big step for Tywin in universe to jump from Lyanna has died to Lyanna died in childbirth and the child is Rhaegar's legitimate son via his second wife Lyanna but this has been covered up due to the fact that all three kings guards there are dead and the most honorable man in the realm claims him as his own. 

Plus, why does Tywin have to worry anyway? It's not him on the throne. And the baby's a baby, as soon as Robert gets a son on his daughter, it's a lot harder to make a case for the previous Guy's grandkid. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Shireen Purratheon said:

But why on earth would Tywin need to be suspicious of Jon being Lyanna and Rhaegar's? Tywin doesn't know the things we know from Ned's pov. Jon looks nothing like Rhaegar, in fact he has features a lot like Ned. And Ned claimed the kid as his. It's a big step for Tywin in universe to jump from Lyanna has died to Lyanna died in childbirth and the child is Rhaegar's legitimate son via his second wife Lyanna but this has been covered up due to the fact that all three kings guards there are dead and the most honorable man in the realm claims him as his own. 

Plus, why does Tywin have to worry anyway? It's not him on the throne. And the baby's a baby, as soon as Robert gets a son on his daughter, it's a lot harder to make a case for the previous Guy's grandkid. 

Because the Kingsguard were guarding Lyanna instead of Viserys or at least in route to guard Viserys. Tywin knows these men better than Ned does having been Hand and being around them all the time. It's more the actions of the Kingsguard that would make Tywin suspicious, not Ned's actions.

And if the Targaryens ever came back in power, it wouldn't be the Starks, Baratheons (save Robert), and Arryns that would have to worry about their houses being totally extinguished. They made a fairly rational decision due to who Aerys was and what he was demanding. No, it would be the Lannisters that would be the house targeted for extinction. Tywin was the one who sat out the war despite his King's pleas. Tywin was the one who murdered the Targaryen children. He's the one who openly betrayed Aerys after offering him friendship. He's the one responsible for the Rape of King's Landing. Tywin's son is the one who killed the King.

It would be the Lannisters above even the houses that fought the war that would be the one to pay for it. They would not be given the benefit of the doubt simply due to the Reynes and Tarbecks. Tywin had no such threat leveled against him as the other houses did. His house would be destroyed entirely if the Targaryens came back to power with Aerys Kingsguard looking over the proceedings. Tywin's actions put his house's extinction on the table for most rational people in Westeros. Tywin above everyone would be the one to pay.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

since r+l=j is not set in stone yet, lets not make it out like it is what actually happend. I am a r+l=j supporter but I make some room to doubt it. 

okay, let's say Rhaegar's future heir is there at the tower as well as Lyanna. One thing I could possibly think of as to why the three kings guard died for that heir is because they are SURE that the heir has already been born/seen it themselves and is healthy.  Tywin can't possibly bring two and two together because well, very few people know about the possible condition Rhaegar left Lyanna in and mostly everyone who knows about it are dead (except Howland Reed). 

Viserys is weak and not at all like Rhaegar. He might get support from important people, but if he doesn't have the talent to lead then he is bound for failure. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If Lyanna had a stillbirth, so that there was no-one to guard at the tower but insufficient time to leave, then the 3KG would still have fought Ned and his friends. The fight at the tower had nothing to do with who was inside, it was about the fate of the 3KG themselves. They were on the losing side and their cause was gone; they would not kneel and they would not flee so they had to die. 

If Lyanna and child had died earlier they would have left the tower to seek Robert's forces. If they had made it to Storm's End they would have sought an honourable fight there against Ned and his champions rather than kneel. They missed any of the battles where their presence would have made a difference in the couse of the war- the entire toj scene is about that! - but they would still have fought because that was the only option that was not fleeing or kneeling,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

lets be clear: viserys was the lawful heir to house targaryen and the kingsguard were sworn to him, no matter what happened at the tower of joy...rhaegar and lyannas offspring, if they exist at all, would not be legitimate in any way, at least not to the faith of the seven, given rheagars existing marriage to elia..there is no proof that any septon annulled this marriage and no reason to think that any legitimate wedding ever took place..the kingsguard, in short, had no legal reason to protect lyanna and progeny over the king and royal family in kings landing..

which begs the question: why did someone in roberts court not investigate why almost half of the kingsguard was hiding in dorne during the critical battles of the rebellion..would that fact alone not provoke some difficult questions of ned? how was it officially explained why three of the kingsguard, including the commander, were nowhere near anyone of any importance as the royal family got murdered? did ned truly suggest that they sat out the war to guard lyanna and nothing else? too flimsy a story to not arouse the suspicions of tywinn or varys or others..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Buried Treasure said:

If Lyanna and child had died earlier they would have left the tower to seek Robert's forces. If they had made it to Storm's End they would have sought an honourable fight there against Ned and his champions rather than kneel. They missed any of the battles where their presence would have made a difference in the couse of the war- the entire toj scene is about that! - but they would still have fought because that was the only option that was not fleeing or kneeling,

That would just be suicide though. Why do that when there are members of the royal family still alive? Barristan later went seeking Dany out, so why not the other 3?

And that's not really what the battle was about. Keep in mind, there were no questions asked by Ned. He was just making statements, and they all knew what they'd find up those stairs: The Rightful King of Westeros.

1 hour ago, house of dayne said:

lets be clear: viserys was the lawful heir to house targaryen and the kingsguard were sworn to him, no matter what happened at the tower of joy...rhaegar and lyannas offspring, if they exist at all, would not be legitimate in any way, at least not to the faith of the seven, given rheagars existing marriage to elia..there is no proof that any septon annulled this marriage and no reason to think that any legitimate wedding ever took place..the kingsguard, in short, had no legal reason to protect lyanna and progeny over the king and royal family in kings landing..

which begs the question: why did someone in roberts court not investigate why almost half of the kingsguard was hiding in dorne during the critical battles of the rebellion..would that fact alone not provoke some difficult questions of ned? how was it officially explained why three of the kingsguard, including the commander, were nowhere near anyone of any importance as the royal family got murdered? did ned truly suggest that they sat out the war to guard lyanna and nothing else? too flimsy a story to not arouse the suspicions of tywinn or varys or others..

If there's a Septon that married them, then I think it is legal for a Targaryen to do it. There is precedence for this in the universe.

And yes, that's also the big question on how no one else thought of this with the Kingsguard. Having the 2 best members of the Kingsguard guarding your wife instead of being in the war is flimsy as hell. Personally I think Varys may have figured it out, but Tywin would have had Jon poisoned in the night if he ever had any hint of it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Lord_Tyrell said:

If there's a Septon that married them, then I think it is legal for a Targaryen to do it. There is precedence for this in the universe.

It is 'legal' for a King, not for a Targaryen (and even in that case it is helpful if that King has a Dragon to back him up.

No Tagaryen has committed polygamy for more than 200 years and we know that the Princes Daemon Blackfyre and Daemon Targaryen has to ask their Kings permission to have a second wife and both were told no.

Even if such a marriage took place no one would actually accept it as Rhaegar did not have the authority to break the law though once King he could legalize any bastard he had with Lyanna (not that he would need to, he already had to healthy heirs of his own).

Besides it is possible that

  • when Rhaegar left Lyanna they did not know she was even pregnant, clearly there was some time between Hightower asking him to return and Ned arriving at the Tower of Joy via Storm's End
  • Rhaegar thought everything would be settled before some time before she gave birth and he took control, meaning he could do things with a Kings authority
Quote

And yes, that's also the big question on how no one else thought of this with the Kingsguard. Having the 2 best members of the Kingsguard guarding your wife instead of being in the war is flimsy as hell.

Dayne and Barristan were the two best Kingsguard members and while Hightower may be a legendary figure he was also old having been the Lord Commander for more than two decades. He was also ineffective against the Kingswood Brotherhood the previous year, he was clearly past his best. It is also possible that Whent too was past his best as Barristan (himself in his 40's during Robert's Rebellion) remembers 'The memory was still bitter. Old Lord Whent had announced the tourney shortly after a visit from his brother' which suggests that the Kingsguard Whent was no spring chicken.

Besides, it is armies that influence war, not individuals. However he needed men he could trust to guard Lyanna which explains their presence there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Prince Maegor married a second wife, Alys Harroway, angering the Faith.  King Aenys exiled him to appease the Faith Militant.  They rose against him anyway after a third and final slight.

However, there is also a precedence for a prince to marry a second wife, and while Aenys exiled said Prince, Aerys did not have that luxury, at least after the tide of the rebellion turned.   Perhaps that played into the standoff between Aerys and Rhaegar.  Rhaegar only returned after Ser Gerold was sent to him at the ToJ.

Even the names are similar Aenys/Aerys and Maegor/Rhaegar.  Something to consider.

Any septon can marry a man and woman, it is between them and the gods, yet a king in Westeros can annul said marriage. Therein lies might equals right, if Rhaegar had leverage over Aerys, and presumably he did, then he could reasonably force Aerys's hand in recognizing said marriage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

The interesting thing is, i can't find any mention of how Ned Stark found out about the tower of joy in the first place, and how the whole is so sketchy. I mean, apart from the tourney, there is nothing to decisively put the blame on Rhaegar. Aerys could have imprisoned her to keep Rhaegar loyal to him after all. Also, in Ned's reminiscence where he briefly talked with the Kingsguard, after the battle, he says they found him, yet Howland Reed was thought to have been the only survivor. Obviously there are sometimes cases of unreliable narrator(note the Unkiss), but i think this is important. And don't you think that that we are rather assuming? After all, we're talking about an uncertain event, based on sketchy sources, and lyanna being pregnant is pure theory with nothing to back it up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If Lyanna had a miscarriage or a stillbirth the KG would had left and they would had gone to the next in line. There would had been no reason to fight and they would most likely being alive with Viserys and Dany in Essos.

On 25/6/2016 at 6:07 PM, house of dayne said:

lets be clear: viserys was the lawful heir to house targaryen and the kingsguard were sworn to him, no matter what happened at the tower of joy...rhaegar and lyannas offspring, if they exist at all, would not be legitimate in any way, at least not to the faith of the seven, given rheagars existing marriage to elia..there is no proof that any septon annulled this marriage and no reason to think that any legitimate wedding ever took place..the kingsguard, in short, had no legal reason to protect lyanna and progeny over the king and royal family in kings landing..

You have absolutely no proof about that.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

You have absolutely no proof about that.

 Backwards, there is absolutely no proof that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, there is (strong and some would argue blatant) textual hinting that they are Jon Snow's parents, and there is little (and contested) arguments for the legality of a second marriage and wether or not they had one.

There is an aching need in the fandom that they be married, and that there would be proof and witnesses still living for a big reveal later in the story that would convince the realm, so that Jon would have a solid and legal claim to the Iron Throne via a chain of gold-winning mental gymnastics that it is legit and that the Targs still have a claim via right of conquest that is somehow more legit than Robert's right of conquest and that Jon Snow should be the king of Westeros by right of birth on top of the wow-factor after being AAR and on his own saving the world from the Others that would get everyone electing him king for being so awesome. You see those same posters/threads with Jon Snarkaryne, KITN, King-beyond-the-Wall, King on the Iron Throne and AAR, etc,etc fuck yeah! all over the place, here and elsewhere on the Internet.*

But that still does not make for proof that they were married.

Let's face the facts here, wishing really hard is not proof. You can say that "well you can't prove that they were not married", but that's not how logic works if you want to prove that they were married, and there is solid arguments that the realm does not consider the option of polygamy as legal even for Targs anymore, and arguments regarding the legality of a teenage girl marrying without the consent of the head of the family. Even Sansa's marriage had to have Cersei explaining why with Robb being a traitor to the crown and Sansa being a ward of the crown, it is legal for them to give her hand in marriage instead of it being Robb's decision. So even if Rhaegar and Lyanna had a ceremony and everything, it can still be called bullshit and not legally binding as marriage to the Sailor's Wife. 

 

And let's be clear about something, Aerys named Viserys his heir after Rhaegar's death, while Aegon still lived. Viserys was Aerys' heir. 

 

* It's also the entire point of the "Jon Snow is released from his vows due to death" but then "it's not really death" because death and coming back to life risks Beric's fate and no one wants Jon Snow to lose parts of himself, but then again if he died should the claim not pass to the next in line? Does he get his claim back because he is alive but not back in the NW for not being dead? Does he get out of the NW if he is only in a coma, and not dead? Did he even have a claim left if he gave up all claim when he joined the NW? It goes on and on and people would try forever to work on a version that works out for Jon coming out of it ok and not break his word and have all the claims and pretend that in a story where people still don't buy Stannis' tale of twincest it would somehow be simple to explain to the entire realm that there was this kid who was kept in hiding all these years and he is totally legit and no we are not just stealing fAegon's origin story (honestly fuck that guy for stealing our thunder with the hidden prince trope!)! But it's bullshit and in any case it ruins the story. It's overthinking something that the auther repeatedly said he does not bother giving much thought to becaue he is writing a story and he makes shit up as he goes along.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, Nyrhex said:

snip

I am sorry I hadn't explained what I meant. I don't particularly care if they were married or not. I am referring at the absolute way of wording. Since we cannot be definitely sure one way or another then maybe we shouldn't use words like that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

If Lyanna had a miscarriage or a stillbirth the KG would had left and they would had gone to the next in line. There would had been no reason to fight and they would most likely being alive with Viserys and Dany in Essos.

You have absolutely no proof about that.....

 

 

 

Quote

In fact i do...the laws of royal succession are pwell established ...arys  son viserys was the prince of dragonstone and the uncontested heir..that is clear and in the text...the faiths view on polygamy is also clear..furthermore there are zero reports that the faith annulled rhaegars wedding or married him to kyanna...so in fact, everything i said was simply a fact suppirted by the text...prove anything i said wrong..

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, house of dayne said:

In fact i do...the laws of royal succession are well established ...arys  son viserys was the prince of dragonstone and the uncontested heir..

Not true.  The text say that Rhaegar was Aerys' heir and not Viserys. 

41 minutes ago, house of dayne said:

e faiths view on polygamy is also clear..

Also not true. Faith was also against incest and the Targs didn't cared, why they should care about polygamy? I don't even mention that GRRM has already told that they may be more polygamous marriages.

41 minutes ago, house of dayne said:

furthermore there are zero reports that the faith annulled rhaegars wedding or married him to kyanna..

There was no need for an annulment. They could had been married according with the Old Gods.

41 minutes ago, house of dayne said:

.so in fact, everything i said was simply a fact suppirted by the text...

No they don't. There is no where in the text to say that Rhaegar hadn't been married with Lyanna.

41 minutes ago, house of dayne said:

prove anything i said wrong..

I don't need to, it has been done already countless times like for example;

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rhaegar was dead so viserys was heir..that is fact...though incest was barely tolerated in the full bloom of targaryen power,it does not follow rhat polygamy therefore was accepted by the faith in rhaegars time..without the faiths endorsement the "wedding" would have no legal weight nor would the progeny have any legitimacy...being married by the old god customs might be romantic but in westrosi political circles would have no legal weight against the power of the faith to determine such matters..and at any rate, there is zero legal proof to justify this claim...just wishful thinking...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, house of dayne said:

Rhaegar was dead so viserys was heir..that is fact.

Νot true. After Rhaegar the heir is one of his sons.

10 minutes ago, house of dayne said:

though incest was barely tolerated in the full bloom of targaryen power

Doesn't matter, the Targs kept doing it so there is no reason why they couldn't do the same with polygamy which by the way was never illegal. 

10 minutes ago, house of dayne said:

..without the faiths endorsement the "wedding" would have no legal weight nor would the prorogeny have any legitimacy..

Again not true. As I have said before no one would care about the Faith, all Rhaegar would need would had been a septon and even without one they could always had been married in front of a heart tree.

10 minutes ago, house of dayne said:

being married by the old god customs might be romantic but in westrosi political circles would have no legal weight against the power of the faith to determine such matters.

Utter :bs: you have absolutely zero evidence that a marriage according the Old Gods wouldn't had been accepted.

10 minutes ago, house of dayne said:

just wishful thinking...

There are textual proofs all over the books. It's fine if you wish to ignore them but that doesn't mean that they are not there. This topic has been discussed numberless times and no one could ever provide incontrovertible evidence for either being married or not. So until GRRM reveals Jon's parentage and their marital status there is no reason to use absolute way of wording.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rhaegar died before aerys so the next inline would be viserys and his offspring as the oldest living male heir...lyannas child is heir to nothing...the old god observing the wedding might be important to the starks if they had consented or even witnessed the event..beyond them no one else would care about first men supersticions and would demand that the seven legitimize the cerimony..but keep clutching at straws

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...